Virgin Mary

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 18 2003,8:58)]
   It does not take the keenest powers of observation to discern that God does not need to order people to copulate.  No one copulates from the sense of obedience in order to perform a painful duty reluctantly.  So, what you call a "commandment" I call a curse.  Humanity was saddled with an over-riding urge to copulate.  And this was subsequent to the Fall of Man, and consistent with all the other Curses God had bestowed on us, which would need to be transcended before we could re-attain Paradice.

uhm....exactly where did you get this from?  Sex and copulation is a gift from God. The Bible says that children are a gift from God.  In fact it was your favorite Apostle Paul that spoke against marriage...

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 18 2003,8:58)]
   Now, Adelphit, you need to ask yourself what the New Dispensation of Christ brought to us. Christ's Mother was created pure of Original Sin and Christ Himself was born Man two generations pure of Original Sin.  Christ did not marry.  He told us that in Heaven we would be like the Angels -- we would be spirit and there would be no marriage.  Spirits do not have sexual genitalia.

Again, where is your scriptural reference for this?  Mary was a normal woman born naturally, and the Bible is quite clear that she had normal marriage relations after Jesus' birth.

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 18 2003,8:58)]
   My guess, is that the New Dispensation brought to us by the Messiah was an opportunity to transcend the Curses that God had laid upon Mankind.  Christ died for something, didn't He.  It was that we no longer be necessarily held prisoner by the compulsive instincts of our Original Sin.

Again, tell me, what was the Original Sin?  If my memory (and scriptures) serve, it was disobedience by man.  What does that have to do with sex?

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 18 2003,8:58)]
   Also, look around.  Do you think that we still need any further "Fruitful Multiplying"?  Of course, the Protestant Capitalists desire population growth because it means a steady supply of cheap labor, and a potentially expanding market.  But the growth is cancerous.  Poverty is simply over-population.  Six out of ten people in the world are made to get by on less than $1,500 a year.  And you want to divide the pie even thinner?

Read Cheryl's post on this.  You blantant anti-Protestantism is beginning to hurt my head...

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 18 2003,8:58)]

   Also, you like the Bible.  Christ is trailed in heaven by a troupe of Virgins.  It is right there in the book of Revelations.  The most honored people in heaven are the Virgins.  They are honored even before the Martyrs.
I guess you would have Christ sent to hell for abetting those who would violate your first commandment.

   That ought to be enough to change your mind.

What's the scripture reference for this again?  None of my copies of Revelations has any reference to virgins whatsoever.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 18 2003,9:05)]

Quote[/b] ]Of course, the Protestant Capitalists desire population growth because it means a steady supply of cheap labor, and a potentially expanding market.  But the growth is cancerous.  

ummm if we're so reproductive driven why is it the catholic church is against birth control and us protestants aren't (only abortiion used at contraception devices)

This is one of those areas where the Catholic Church was polluted by the infiltration of that Antichrist, Paul. Everyone is familiar with those passages in Corinthians, or is it Romans, where Paul glorifies Matrimonial Copulation. So the Catholic Church is caught in a dilema -- it can appreciate the New Dispensation which Christ offered and transcend Original Sin -- as do all the Brotherhoods and Sisterhoods and many of the third orders -- all the ascetics. Or, it can muscle Church Teachings to correlate better with Paul and his exaltation in carnality. Look at it -- the Church preaches one thing to the Masses and practices another with its 'elect'. In a way it is the triumph of Spiritual Snobbism -- the Elitests figure that if a person is spiritually 'serious' then they will take Orders and become a Priest, a Monk or a Nun. If not, then they can be told to have good Catholic Children. Pride, from Catholics or Protestants, is not a good thing, and I have often told Priests to their face that they should be horsewhipped for supposing themselves any more worthy of a sacred lifestyle than anyone else. Not one has argued back, and they all acknowledge that Celibacy is an Honor that they have no monopoly on.

Also, this brings to mind a Famous Dream for a Catholic Seer of the Last Century who looked at the Church in its End Times -- this is what he saw. In a symbolic Vision he saw the Church as a huge Battleship under attack by hundreds of smaller ships. The Pope at the helm. The Church was losing. then the Pope was struck and fell. A New Pope came to the Wheel and set New Priorities. Instead of blasting away at everything, He would set sail in the direction of the Pillars of Mary and the Eucharist -- they were standing off in the distance. Instantly many of the attacking boats came around and joined the Catholic Ship and the remaining Enemies were scattered. Now, how is this Vision important? Well, this problem you bring up of how the Church Practices a Virtue it effectively denies to its rank and file membership -- such silliness will be dispensed with on the coming of the next Pope. The Church will have only two Words -- Mary and the Eucharist.

 

[Guest]

Dear Kidan,

No, Paul only said that He was too good for marriage. But when everyone is glorifying marriage, they quote Paul. Are you new to Christian Literature? I wouldn't think I would need to explain this to a Bible Thumper.

If you think that Sex is a gift from God then you simply don't understand Man's Fall, The Curse, and Original Sin. Adam and Eve were Spirit. It was their Disobedience and Sin that required that they be cast down into the bodies of monkeys. If we were to believe your Doctrine, then we would need to suppose that there is no difference between Heaven and Earth. There is. Christ said that in Heaven we would be spiritual beings, like the angels and that there would be no sex or marriage. So much for your Glorious Copulation.

Every Successful Mystical Institution on the Planet has determined that bodily appetites must be transcended -- sex being the worst offender. the Protestant defense of Copulation ("its a beautiful gift from God" to thrust about with the instincts of an ape) shows a spiritual unconsciousness. Any Religion that is even a tenth of the way toward the foggist spiritual notions, sees this Veneration of the Sex Act as the most amazing corruption of the Truth, or at least moronic.

 

[Guest]

Dear Kidan,

You admit that you have no idea what Original Sin is.

It was disobedience. What you need to remember was the Punishment. Mankind was thrown out of Paradise. We are no longer in the Presence of God. We had been created In the Image of God. that was taken away, wasn't it? God is Spirit. The Angels are Spirit. And now, after the Fall, man is a pack of monkeys humping like rodents. That is not The Image of God. It is the Curse of Our Original Sin, that we have been reduced to Animals.

Christ Sacrificed Himself in order that a Spiritual Spark could again be implanted within us. It did not give us the certainty of a return to Paradise, but only the potential. Through Obedience and Penance we could scratch and claw our way back up the Ladder and crawl on our humble bellies before God and beg for Forgiveness. It is this humility which will counteract Eve's and Adams Disobedience and the Satanic Pride that pushed them into it.

Do I have scriptural references. You need to understand that the Bible will not do your thinking for you. Look at how Christ taught. He did not just read the Scripture of the Jewish Law -- he read it and then discoursed upon it. Our own Scripture was written on this same model -- not on the Model of Christ's expositions and explanations -- but on the Model of offering the essential outlines of the information necessary to form the correct intellectual conclusions. The Scripture will not do your thinking for you.

 

[Guest]

Actually BEFORE THERE WAS THE KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil and man did NOT COPULATE FOR THE "FUN" OF IT, THERE WAS THE VERY NECESSARY NEED TO COMMAND Adam and Eve to mate!
You  have forgotten their INNOCENCE! THEY WERE CHILDREN.
Matter of fact the very reason GOd never has destroyed ALL OF MAN, is the existance of His FIRST COMMANDMENT, and HE has NOT changed HIS plan for man. amen
i do enjoy giving you "theologians" the chance to interview me, but i suggest all of you try a little harder to PERFECT your methodologies.
They are very very weak.
i am nothing0 and 100+% correct by THE HOLY GHOST. AMEN
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Guest]

Now then for thy edification, let me take you  to Revelation 21:1; the last part of the sentence:"and there was no more sea."
The sea St. John is speaking of is the 7/10ths water that covers the globe.
And when the original plan for man is re-established and a multitude has entered into the Kingdome by translation and they did NOT sleep, and there is NO more death, and no the ORIGINAL PLAN RE-ENGAGES ITSELF UPON MAN, THEN THE POPULATION WILL INCREASE AT AND INCREASING RATE AND SO THE ANGELS WILL HAVE TO TAKE MANY TO THE OTHER ROOMS/PLANETS IN OUR FATHER'S MANSION.
AND SO TIME HAS NO MORE HOLD OVER MEN, IN A VERY SHORT TIME BECAUSE THE HUMAN BODY IS 90% WATER(YOUR BLOOD THE SAME SALINITY CONTENT AS SEA WATER) THE OCEANS WILL BE DRAINED DRY.
LITERALLY THE WATER/SEA WILL GO IN THE FLESHLY BODIES OF MEN TO OTHER PLANETS.
AND NO SPACE SHIPS NEEDED.
BUT DO NOT DESPAIR LITTLE ONES, THERE IS ALWAYS A RIVER THAT FLOWS FROM THE THRONE OF GOd OUT INTO THE GARDEN OF EARTH. AMEN
i do love those jewels of knowledge THE LORD GOd YESHUA OF NAZARETH HAS LEFT IN THE WRITTEN WORD.
TAKE OF THEM AND PLACE ONLY THEM TOGETHER AND SEE WHAT PROFITS A MAN.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 15 2003,4:59)]I'm against the sin of homosexuality not the sinner.  The Bible is against it.  I will never approve with it, but I won' act on it.  I have friends that are homosexual.  I don't hate them.

Since this thread has wandered so far away anyway...

Hypo for y'all:
Why is homosexual sex a sin?

(and don't use the fornication excuse. Hetrosexual sex (in marriage) is not a sin, right? So, if gays were married, would that not make it a sin in that respect.)

I am serious. And I do know Leviticus and Romans condemn it. My question is...why? Most things that are a sin have a valid (at least in their time) reason...

Oh, and while you are at it, please explain how and why women on their periods were unclean too, and why you don't hold women to the same standards that you do gays.

 

[CCGR]

homosexuality is a sin because God is against it in the bible

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them havecommitted an abomination...

In the old testament they wouls have non of that and they would have been killed or not part of God's chosen. Sodom and Gomorah were detstoyed because of their wickedness.

The OT is big on clean and unclean. Women and considered unclean while menstrating and after birthing. I don't know why other than sanitary reasons, some jews still follow those rules though

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Big J @ Oct. 19 2003,5:29)]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 15 2003,4:59)]I'm against the sin of homosexuality not the sinner.  The Bible is against it.  I will never approve with it, but I won' act on it.  I have friends that are homosexual.  I don't hate them.

Since this thread has wandered so far away anyway...

Hypo for y'all:
Why is homosexual sex a sin?

(and don't use the fornication excuse.  Hetrosexual sex (in marriage) is not a sin, right? So, if gays were married, would that not make it a sin in that respect.)

I am serious.  And I do know Leviticus and Romans condemn it.  My question is...why?  Most things that are a sin have a valid (at least in their time) reason...

Oh, and while you are at it, please explain how and why women on their periods were unclean too, and why you don't hold women to the same standards that you do gays.

Hi Big J,

This is one area where I disagree with the Catholic Churches Party Line -- that the sacrament of Marriage makes sex okay. It doesn't. Before, the Catholic Church was approaching a consistent standard when they preached that Sex could only be justified when implemented with the specific intention of conceiving children -- but then they started to say "with an open mind toward children", and now the Church actually conducts workshops on how to copulate while minimizing to practically nothing the risk of achieving preganancy -- in a 'natural way'. Its disgusting. And every Monk and Nun knows it. Spiritual Success depends upon disengaging from the body's appetites. Now, with young people there is simply nothing you can tell them, because their sex drive is so strong. But, then, there is simply no excuse for not informing couples in their forties, fifties and sixties that they are sick perverted apes and should turn from animal carnality to a life in the Spirit, which, at that age, is not too unreasonable.

But yes. I think everyone has an equal right to be celibate. And among celibate people I really have a preference for the homosexuals of both sexes. Paradoxically enough, their personas, though flipped backwards in an inverse of what they should be, biologically, are better defined. the Butch women are better men then any I know. And the feminine men are the perfect hostesses. And they are all creative and imaginative and have a flare for style.

 

[Guest]

To be anti-Paul is to become instantly anti-Christ Jesus/Yeshua of Nazareth.
i am nothing0 and do NOT disagree with the model Jesus sent for me to imitate/followaul.
Paul is Chief Apostle over even leo v.
By the way, it is well known and recognized BY THE JEWS THAT Paul WAS MARRIED!
He left his wife at home when he went on the road.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 19 2003,7:20)]The OT is big on clean and unclean.  Women and considered unclean while menstrating and after birthing.  I don't know why other than sanitary reasons, some jews still follow those rules though

God says all that stuff about women in the Bible.

Why do you choose to NOT follow that, while you do follow the anti-gay stuff? (I'm not saying you are advocating killing homosexuals.)

Put another way...Why do you not follow all of Leviticus? Why only parts?

Favor...if you don't mind...Please tell me how women are unsanitary whilst on their periods. I have had women tell me that they are most assuredly not "unclean" just because "Aunt Flo" is visiting.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 19 2003,7:24)]now the Church actually conducts workshops on how to copulate while minimizing to practically nothing the risk of achieving preganancy -- in a 'natural way'.  Its disgusting.  

Do it on the "off" days, it's OK. Wear a piece of latex...bad.

(In other words, I agree, Leo.)

Anyway, if it was Gods will that a woman get pregnant...he could just make the condom be one of the 1%.

 

[Kidan]

That's the thing, you should not have sex during the menstruel cycle.  Yet today, they are no longer 'unclean.'  especially if they're Christian.  A Christian has become clean in Christ.  As for why were they previously?  It's because of the blood.  Anything dealing with blood or sickness ran the risk of being deemed unclean, and this related to a women's cycle as well.

Now, why is homosexuality so bad? Because it is adultery.  Both marriage's and sex's primary reason for existence is children, how can homosexuality produce children?  It is no better than necrophilia or bestiality, it's twisting sex away form it's primary purpose.


leo--  Actually Paul said "I would rather all be celibate as I am, but if you cannot resist temptation then marry." (a reasonable paraphrase, if you want the actual reference I will get it for you).

Adam and Eve were spirit?  Where on earth did this heresy come from??  Nothing in ANY scriptures I've read have ever even came anywhere to mentioning this.  God made Adam and Eve, giving them physical bodies made from dust (which if you take away the water in our body, we are made from about $4.50 worth of chemicals found commonly in dirt)


hm...let's look at the punishements for man and woman for their disobedience...

Quote[/b] ]Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18  thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19  in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 It doesn't say anything about our uniqueness in relation to God being taken away.  It doesn't say anything about how bad sex is.  It does say that women will suffer more during childbirth. but that just tells me that God expects us to have children even after the fall.

Also CHrist sacrificed Himself for us.  So that any who come unto Him can reach Heaven.  Does salvation change how you act?  It should.  Should your faith be visible in your works?  Yes. While the concept here is almost right (Christ died so that we can walk closer to Him again) your insistence on works is wrong.  We as flawed creatures cannot do an unflawed righteous work.  All the works that we do, are not enough to atone for the blood debt that can only be washed away by faith in Christ.

Again and again, you assume I haven't studied Christian literature or the BIble.  Again and again, you say things like this.  Then again and again, you say something utterly off the wall, and not backed up with scripture and when asked for scripture and you are unable to produce them, you call ME an unthinking?  Rather than that, why not stop accepting what your preists tell you blindly, question them!  Search the scriptures yourself!  and then when you are in a Christian forum, you will be able to back your arguements up with Biblical references.  Everything I've said in the months I've been coming here can be backed up with scriptures, and when asked I've shown my arguments logically and scripturally (SSquared, I'm still working on the Prophet thing for you, I don't have a lot of free time anymore, so it is slowly coming togethor).  I expect the same thing from others who claim to be following Christ and speaking in these boards.  Timor doesn't have to give scriptures, since he doesn't believe in them.  You, since you claim Christ, have to be able to back up your arguments with the Bible.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Mankind was thrown out of Paradise.  We are no longer in the Presence of God.  We had been created In the Image of God.  that was taken away, wasn't it?  God is Spirit.  The Angels are Spirit.  And now, after the Fall, man is a pack of monkeys humping like rodents.  That is not The Image of God.  It is the Curse of Our Original Sin, that we have been reduced to Animals.  

I take this as meaning you are denying Christ's propitiation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? The fact that Christ was resurrected proves the Father accepted His atoning sacrifice.

This is why we are even able to have the Holy Spirit, God, dwelling within us. We have an open line straight to the throne room of grace.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Oct. 19 2003,3:39)]

Quote[/b] ]Now, why is homosexuality so bad? Because it is adultery.

As I said...then let gays marry.

Quote[/b] ]Both marriage's and sex's primary reason for existence is children, how can homosexuality produce children? It is no better than necrophilia or bestiality, it's twisting sex away form it's primary purpose.

So. (No offense, I don't know how old you are. So if you are young and unmarried, don't take offense.) By having sex in marriage not dedicated to reproduction is twisting sex away from its primary purpose.

Once again...gays are not allowed to marry.

Look, you get no argument from me that a man and his sheep should not get married. (contrary to what some zoophiles may say) an animal cannot consent.

Final thoughts.

It was more than just "don't have sex when your wife's menstrating." From what you say, I suspect that you should re read what exactly it says in Leviticus about a woman and her period.

If anyone has the desire...admit that some of the laws were written by people who didn't understand natural processes. A period is NOT a wound. Menstration is NOT sickness.

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] ]Lev 15:19  And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be in her impurity seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

No, the entire issue is that blood (and other bodily fluids) is a wonderful medium for viruses.  And likewise, anyone that was bleeding was deemed unclean.  Man or woman.  But it wasn't just people bleeding.  After sex, you were unclean until evening.  If you changed the sheets of someone that was bleeding (or even had the runs) you were unclean until evening.  It was actually an issue to cut down on the spread of viruses, and shows an very nice knowledge of natural processes. Yes we know that a period is not a wound or a sickness, but it is still flowing blood. Which can CONTAIN viruses, and is a wonderful medium for such.


Gay's cannot marry because they are not a man and a woman.  It is really that simple.  You say that having sex in marriage not dedicated to reporduction is a twisting, sure it can be viewed that way.  More accurately it would be having sex without the intention of children is a twisting.  There is a slight difference.  Me and my wife were not actively striving for a child when she conceived, but that does not mean we were not hoping for one.

 

[Guest]

Did they not see and not understand what they did to see with their own eyes?
It that the effect of the Spirit of slumber?
Again i will re-itterate: When the ORIGINAL PLAN OF GOd FOR MAN ENGAGES ITSELF UPON THE SHEEP THAT DID NOT SLEEP, YOU WILL GO AND MARRY HAVING MANY MANY CHILDREN IN THE LORD GOd JESUS AND THE KINGDOME WILL EXPAND WITHOUT AN END. AMEN
i am nothing0 and understand the patience of Paul when dealing with ignorant and insane men.
Thankyou Jesus for this lesson.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[timor]

Let's go out on a philosophical limb.

Can you prove that sex, especially among humans, is designed soley for reproduction?

One could very easily argue that it truly has no purpose, and that both pleasure and children are mere byproducts.

Now, let's take a look at the animal world. Because the females go into heat, and the animals go into (its called this for deer, not sure about other animals) a rut, it is very easy for animals to concieve, almost always, i believe, requiring only one occasion of intercourse. Not true with humans! A couple can have intercourse for a very long time without having children, even if both are fully capable of reproduction.

So, please prove positively that, first of all, sex even has a true "purpose", and furthermore, prove that that purpose is reproduction. Seems easy, but it's not

 

[CCGR]

proof? check the current population The Bible says the marriage bed is undefiled so, nothing wrong if you're married.

 

[timor]

hehe

that's not proof that reproduction is the purpose, however, merely a byproduct

by the same standards, one could say the purpose of sex is to spread diseases

if reproduction is actually the purpose of sex, then why are there fluids within the woman's sexual organs which kill sperm?