Virgin Mary
- Thread starter Big J
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There had once been a Hesesy called the Arian Heresy where it was thought that Jesus was a man who through spiritual practice was able to work his way up in spiritual power to being 'Christlike' -- but he was not Divine. He was a Man with Divine Powers. This put the idea of Redemption into doubt -- Redemption is such an important dispensation that it was thought only the Sacrifice of God Himself could effect it. Just some guy who was very good at Yoga would not be worthy for the ends contemplated.[b said:Quote[/b] (Big J @ Oct. 14 2003,12:55)]Leo, Rand, and other Catholics,
Why is it so important that Mary remained a literal virgin? Seriously.
(And for the atheists, I do know why it was so important.)
Okay, then what proves that Jesus was God? A Divine Birth. We have a Divine Birth in that the Purity of His Birth goes back two Generations -- Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit without Sexual Intercourse, and Mary's mother Anne conceived Mary without sexual intercource -- a thing of light that had been taken from the Arc of the Covenant centuries before which had been passed down from Abraham was supernaturally placed into Anne which generated into Mary. So, Jesus is born two generations removed from Original Sin. God was not only the Father of Christ, but also His Grandfather!
Without the Virgin Birth, Christ would have only been a Man -- good enough to be a Saint, but no Great Dispensation could have been expected.
Why is it important that Mary remain a Virgin. The Purity that Christ came from had to be True Purity -- not a temporary purity. Mary had to be pure in body and in Soul. She, who was created without Original Sin, was also free of the taint of Original Sin -- that is, She had not the inclination, and maybe not even the anatomy for sex. Born as Adam and Eve were to have been before The Curse, we cannot say for certain that Mary had an ordinary physiogamy. For instance, she gave birth to Christ without pain. She was not a human woman as much as She was Eve gone right.
This is why Mary is the Perfect Advocate for us. She is beneath God but above all Humanity. The perfect go between.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Oh Ok now I see you are discounting the Bible Leo. Hebrews 4:15 says he was tempted in all ways like we were. Allow me to quote Matthew 4:1 "Then Yeshua was lead by the spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." Believe me he was tempted there too as well as throughout his life. Born without a sinfull nature i think not. Remember being tmpted is not sinning so even though he had that nature he never sinned.
www_rlxc_com
New Member
Mary was a sinner, and without accepting Christ as her savior would have burned in hell along with everyone else.
Obviously Mary accepted the Gift God gave to all humanity, she was really nothing more than a door Jesus used to enter the world. "Perfect" no, definantly not. She was also not a virgin when she died, Josheph did not have sex with her untill after Jesus was born, but after that they went on to have some other kids.
A verse I find interesting is this one, Mary was asking to speak with Jesus, along with his brothers. Jesus told the croud, they are not special, anyone who accepts me is My mother and brother.
Matt 12
47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You." 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
This put a big hole in that whole "Mary above human"
Mary is concidered blessed, but this seams like a no brainer to me. She was able to have JESUS, God himself come threw him. Most of us would concider ourself`s blessed if we were able to meet the President or our company boss. But Mary was able to meet Jesus, and have Jesus inside her. That is quite a blessing. It does not however, imply she is "above humanity" in holiness. She was a sinner like all us
Obviously Mary accepted the Gift God gave to all humanity, she was really nothing more than a door Jesus used to enter the world. "Perfect" no, definantly not. She was also not a virgin when she died, Josheph did not have sex with her untill after Jesus was born, but after that they went on to have some other kids.
A verse I find interesting is this one, Mary was asking to speak with Jesus, along with his brothers. Jesus told the croud, they are not special, anyone who accepts me is My mother and brother.
Matt 12
47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You." 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
This put a big hole in that whole "Mary above human"
Mary is concidered blessed, but this seams like a no brainer to me. She was able to have JESUS, God himself come threw him. Most of us would concider ourself`s blessed if we were able to meet the President or our company boss. But Mary was able to meet Jesus, and have Jesus inside her. That is quite a blessing. It does not however, imply she is "above humanity" in holiness. She was a sinner like all us
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Very well said RLXC.
www_rlxc_com
New Member
I actually replied before reading Leo`s responce.
Where on earth did you pull that stuff out of? Mary without sin, being born of a virgin birth? mary not even having sexual parts? With your interpetation you would think Angels opened the doors for her whenever she entered a house.
Mary was a normal human, she was born a sinner, and without Christ she would have burned in hell like everyone else
"For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the GLORY of God"
That verse does not say "For all BUT MARY have sinned....
If she was sinless, why couldnt she die for our sins?
Where on earth did you pull that stuff out of? Mary without sin, being born of a virgin birth? mary not even having sexual parts? With your interpetation you would think Angels opened the doors for her whenever she entered a house.
Mary was a normal human, she was born a sinner, and without Christ she would have burned in hell like everyone else
"For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the GLORY of God"
That verse does not say "For all BUT MARY have sinned....
If she was sinless, why couldnt she die for our sins?
mrpopdrinker
New Member
[QUOTEIf she was sinless, why couldnt she die for our sins? ][/QUOTE] Although there is a biblical answer to that besides the truth that she was full of sin ill let Leo answer.
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
For ALL have sinned and few short of the glory of God, Jesus being in very nature God did not try to atain equality with God but humbled Himself to death, even death on a cross.
Now then where did you get that crazy vadicatin story about Mary??? i mean come on in that had happen would not ONE of the gosepls mention it, i mean i know LUKE would of mention it because he wrote everything down very logically. Personally i think its the Vadican tryings to make up there own doctrine, just like a mormon
Now then where did you get that crazy vadicatin story about Mary??? i mean come on in that had happen would not ONE of the gosepls mention it, i mean i know LUKE would of mention it because he wrote everything down very logically. Personally i think its the Vadican tryings to make up there own doctrine, just like a mormon
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Dibbler
Guest
You guys just crack me up. What about this second coming I keep hearing about? Will that be of a virgin birth too? I mean, will it be of a spermless birth?
It can't happen, can it? And would anyone of sound mind believe it anyway?
It's a funny old world but it's all good fun.
It can't happen, can it? And would anyone of sound mind believe it anyway?
It's a funny old world but it's all good fun.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Allow me to explain the second coming. After the rapture the tribulation will occur. After those seven years Christ will return to put a end to all the fighting and will set up a temporary kingdom that will last one thousand years. This is the second coming.
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Dibbler
Guest
But will he be born of a spermless birth this time? because if so, there's a miracle right there but how would she prove it?
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Will he be born? He was already born he will come riding on the clouds out of heaven. He is in heaven now with a new golryfied body. Or are you reffering to the antichrist I am a bit confused as to what you are asking.
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Dibbler
Guest
So this second coming wont be anything like the frist one? What is an anti-christ anyway? And how would you know the difference?
mrpopdrinker
New Member
No it wont. The first coming was a begining. The next coming will be to end all bad things and establish a new kingdom. After the one thousand years heaven will come down to earth. The antichrist you ask? You I am sure have heard 666 is his mark. He will come and decieve many into thinking he is God. As far as how could you tell the difference. Well it does describe him in the bible as well as all that will happen so to somone who knew it would actually be very obvious. Now we christians or atleast those of us that are pretribbers believe we will be raptured before the tribulation. The rapture which we get from the latin word raphiamore is where we will be caught up to where God is instantaniously. I cant remember how exactly but the Jews will figure him out. Also he will do many things Yeshua/Jesus did such as be shot and rise again.
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Dibbler
Guest
Thanks, that's very interesting. Unbelievable, mystical, irrational but interesting none the less.
Ta
Ta
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Your welcome, glad I could help you understand our belifes. God is not bound by human rationality.[b said:
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Dibbler
Guest
Ain't that the truth...[b said:
Makes one wonder why a god would bother creating rational thought doesn't it?
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Dibbler
Guest
That's a good point. Only four years of Jesuses life is chronicled in the bible. And not a word written by him. Surely, when he was a teenager... you know.... hormones and all that.[b said:
Dibbler, another good point. Christians love to point out that Jesus never sinned (even though there are accounts of lying and deciet by Jesus recorded plainly in the Bible). And yet, what is shown in the Bible represents a very small period of his life! You are absolutely right, a very great portion is missing from the account of Jesus' life that we must simply take for granted - then again, everything has to be taken for granted, as he could have been sinning it up every night during his ministry, and it may never have been recorded (of course, doing so would negatively impact his message).
So, anyways, yeah, hormones.
So, anyways, yeah, hormones.