Very good point. Conceding that ones God is not rational, it would then follow that belief in that God is not rational and therefore indefensible. If it is indefensible, it is based soley on faith, and random faith at that, as any irrational God is just as "defensible" as the next. After reading these other 3 posts I have opened, I'm gonna go chill for the night, but maybe tomorrow I'll form a logical proof that states this.[b said:
Virgin Mary
- Thread starter Big J
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CCGR
Member
so what you think you're of the same intellect of the being that created the world as we know it? there are aspects of God that we can't fathom. It's like expecting to have the IQ you have now from birth.
Because we can't see what God is doing or see him face to face, that's where faith comes in. I know we came from somewhere. I know that God was here. His word said he'll be back. The Bible prophesies have been fufilled int he past and they will be fufileld again very soon.
Because we can't see what God is doing or see him face to face, that's where faith comes in. I know we came from somewhere. I know that God was here. His word said he'll be back. The Bible prophesies have been fufilled int he past and they will be fufileld again very soon.
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
i went in and edited my long one trimor so if you feel like you could debate it go for the read, the last paragraph was left in becuase you did leave it as a direct quote and i have no idea of who it was who posted it
G
Guest
Guest
RATIONAL THOUGHT
Rational Thought is over rated. Most people simply operate on received opionions, habit, routine.... you know it wasn't rational thought that believed the world was flat.
Besides, the whole notion of Rational Thought presupposes that belief in things requires a train of deductions. Most the time isn't it simpler then that. When you see a grey horse, you don't need any rational thought to convince yourself that grey horses exist. You have just seen one. Direct perception precludes the necessity for 'thought'.
Now, Sankara Charya the Great Advaitist would be unhappy with any assertion that there can be direct perception. He thought that the perceptions were the great liars. He could never get past the idea that vision could be 'wrong' -- his argument was that if you could possibly mistake a rope for a snake at twilight, then Everything was an Illusion. Here is logic using a toothpick to vault over a Mountain. We can believe our senses. The catenation of cause and effect which bring the images of real objects into our mind is materially real and substantially believable.
So, when we see God and hear God, what is there to think about?
Rational Thought is over rated. Most people simply operate on received opionions, habit, routine.... you know it wasn't rational thought that believed the world was flat.
Besides, the whole notion of Rational Thought presupposes that belief in things requires a train of deductions. Most the time isn't it simpler then that. When you see a grey horse, you don't need any rational thought to convince yourself that grey horses exist. You have just seen one. Direct perception precludes the necessity for 'thought'.
Now, Sankara Charya the Great Advaitist would be unhappy with any assertion that there can be direct perception. He thought that the perceptions were the great liars. He could never get past the idea that vision could be 'wrong' -- his argument was that if you could possibly mistake a rope for a snake at twilight, then Everything was an Illusion. Here is logic using a toothpick to vault over a Mountain. We can believe our senses. The catenation of cause and effect which bring the images of real objects into our mind is materially real and substantially believable.
So, when we see God and hear God, what is there to think about?
D
Dibbler
Guest
The asylums are full of people who would be saved their torment given the ability to exersise a little rational thought.[b said:
But as you say, rational thought alone is not, in itself, enough to determine absolutes, if absolutes are what you want. Science and repeated experimentation attempts to determine what is actually real, and even then must be discarded if later shown to be inadequate.
But faith alone will never do
CCGR
Member
Assylums are also full of people who said God made them do stuff. if it doesn't go along with God's inspired word (aka Bible) then it's probably not God telling you to do it.
D
Dibbler
Guest
Isn't the Bible also full of people who said God made them do stuff?[b said:
CCGR
Member
God was more present in the Bible times, the Gospels were written by people that hung out God on this earth. God appeared to Moses and to Paul. That's somethign to write about and listen to him
D
Dibbler
Guest
Lucky they had no assylums back then.... kidding
I was aware that, according to the Bible, God appeared to Moses but I didn't know he appeared to Paul. Or have I got my wires crossed. Are we talking about Paul the Roman?
I was aware that, according to the Bible, God appeared to Moses but I didn't know he appeared to Paul. Or have I got my wires crossed. Are we talking about Paul the Roman?
CCGR
Member
Yeah Paul (Saul of Tarsus) the Christian persecutor on his way p Damascus got a personal visitation that blinded him for a bit and changed him dramatically.
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
[b said:
John 7 Jesus going to the feast of the tabernacle, ONE his own brothers told him to Go, and they did not believe he was the messiah. 2ndly he told them he wasnt going because they Jews there wanted to kill him. You also do not understand that John is the most in depth book writen about Jesus and his life. His book goes more in depth on details and Context is the king.
Lets say you wanted to go to Lybia, now being a white american, you could not go there with out being knowticed. so you tell all your lybian friends you are not going to come, but in secret you go to see what you wanted to see. this way your Lybian friends ( who didnt trust you, basicly wanted you dead) do not tell the general populase about your coming, because they do not know.
Context is king
John 17:15-18 and 25-27 anwser the Peter question
Why must you atempt to distort the Word? i mean come on oh man Mark only has one referrance Jesus must be lying, gosh are you that ignorant that you do not cross referrance it? tisk tisk
Jesus could say that to the other prisonar because, one He is God in flesh, and two he had forgiven the mans sins, and so he would be in heaven with Jesus now then he said that he will be in paradise with him, that does not mean that they will meet up right away, but they will be there together, yet again a hole filled and fruitless argument
the mark one i do not even need to read, any half wit scholar could tell you what the cross represented in Jesus' day. so yes this had heavy implication to the people who Jesus said it, primaraly because the Jews could see a cruxifiction almost daily, man you have to love romain justice.
Yet again context is king
You are only taking the last line of the verse not looking at the entire thing. it is dealing with justice and angry towards a brother. he is also talking about murder at this time. the you fool is in regard to someone saying ot his brother "Raca"
Now then about the Ressurrection
The sabbath starts on Friday in the evening and does not end until monday morning, during times of festival, we can not go into full detail about the rules for the sabbath right now because it would make this post way to long.
Jesus dies friday in the early afternoon, they take him down about evening ( he didnt die instantly), Jewish law says no handling of dead bodies so they put him in a tomb, and left, now then friday, saturday, sunday night. now read it out in the 24 hr time frame and you also get 3 days, it does no say that Jesus got up right on monday morning nor does it say the women went to the tomb at first light, just it says on the first day of the week.
the last one can be debated easier than the 2kings i mean come on Enoch walk with God and was no more, BUT HE DIDNT COME BACK! duh who could talk about heavenly things with any assurance unless he had been there. and that is what the entire passage is about Jesus is teaching Nicodemus who was a Pharisees a teacher of the law and he would know all about the old testament.
all this ramble does is show that the person who wrote it had no idea what he was talking about and only picks and chooses to prove that God is wrong, anyone can do this with anything. it also teaches us that Context is king and that you should learn to read and study before you just randomly post things
Lion, "justification" does not make a lie truth.
The cross statement is absolutely silly, I agree. Unfotunatly, I simply copied and pasted rather than editing. (I have read it before, plenty of times).
You have not sufficiently shown how the theif on the cross argument is hole filled. Jesus said "this day" - did he mean it, or not?
Neither have you refuted the heavenly ascendance argument. I find this argument to be extremely valid, and quite a few Christians that I know are currently noodling this one. The OT account clearly states that Elijah was taken up into Heaven. Furthermore, it shows that he was actually taken *upwards* (ascended). Jesus makes quite a false statement in saying that He is the only one to do so.
The cross statement is absolutely silly, I agree. Unfotunatly, I simply copied and pasted rather than editing. (I have read it before, plenty of times).
You have not sufficiently shown how the theif on the cross argument is hole filled. Jesus said "this day" - did he mean it, or not?
Neither have you refuted the heavenly ascendance argument. I find this argument to be extremely valid, and quite a few Christians that I know are currently noodling this one. The OT account clearly states that Elijah was taken up into Heaven. Furthermore, it shows that he was actually taken *upwards* (ascended). Jesus makes quite a false statement in saying that He is the only one to do so.
CCGR
Member
His creation looks pretty good to me. Intelligent design has that name for a reason. As for maintaining his creation, well we can't see the future God can. There are events that we don't know why they happen, but God does. Why did I lose my job? To get a better one in many cases.
Christianity can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. Getting into Heaven is easy as long as you make the commitment and live through with it.
Christianity can be complex as well but they are minor details. ex end times prophesy, pre-mid-post trib, lineage etc etc
Agree on the majors, tolerance on the minors, in all things Love
Christianity can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. Getting into Heaven is easy as long as you make the commitment and live through with it.
Christianity can be complex as well but they are minor details. ex end times prophesy, pre-mid-post trib, lineage etc etc
Agree on the majors, tolerance on the minors, in all things Love
CCGR, I must say, I really love the little saying you put at the end of many of your posts. "Agree on the majors, tolerance on the minors, in all things Love."
It's quite a shame you weren't around in the medieval ages - so much bloodshed could have been avoided had they heeded that advice.
It's quite a shame you weren't around in the medieval ages - so much bloodshed could have been avoided had they heeded that advice.
CCGR
Member
that's the motto of our pastor. I hate getting blamed or Christianity getting blamed for the inquisition, crusades and witch burnings etc. I mean I'm against homosexuality and abortion but never will I commit a gay hate crime or murder doctors who perform them.
D
Dibbler
Guest
[b said:
What have homosexuals done to you, besides exist?
I personally do not like abortion but accept the law as it stands.
All that exists under nature must be natural by default.
CCGR
Member
I'm against the sin of homosexuality not the sinner. The Bible is against it. I will never approve with it, but I won' act on it. I have friends that are homosexual. I don't hate them.
D
Dibbler
Guest
I also have dear friends who are gay. Their life is natural to them and that's good enough for me.
The word sin is outdated and should be removed from the engish language. People are born who they are. And no anchient book of mythology has any say in it.
Asides, the church is about to split on this very issue. The church must be dragged, kicking and stuggling, into the 21st centure, and indeed reality. Keep your myths and beliefs if you must but it's "real" people that count. Hatred and biggotry has past it's sell by date and good riddance to it.
The word sin is outdated and should be removed from the engish language. People are born who they are. And no anchient book of mythology has any say in it.
Asides, the church is about to split on this very issue. The church must be dragged, kicking and stuggling, into the 21st centure, and indeed reality. Keep your myths and beliefs if you must but it's "real" people that count. Hatred and biggotry has past it's sell by date and good riddance to it.