You're not a true believer unless you can...
- Thread starter Dark Virtue
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Dark Virtue
New Member
You're missing the point Byblos.[b said:
Yes, Adam made the mistake...BUT...
God created Adam KNOWING he would make that mistake.
God created Eve KNOWING she would tempt Adam.
God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil knowing it would tempt Eve (another question is WHY? What was its purpose?)
God created the serpent with the ability to speak KNOWING it would tempt EVE.
God did all these things knowing FULL WELL that man would fall, thus He ENDORSED mans fall. It was a calculated decision on God's part. He intended Man to fall all along. Saying anything different would revoke God's omnimax status.
The Free Will defense here is bogus. What is the point of being given a choice if the Being giving the choice already knows what choice will be made? Remember what Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again
and expecting a different result."
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
Thus, He ENDORSED it. He approved of it.
If He didn't endorse it, He would have created those things in a different manner.
If you believe God is omnimax, then you have to admit that God doesn't make mistakes. He intended Man to fall, He endorsed Man's fall, He made His creation knowing Man would fall, His creation was made TO MAKE MAN FALL.
he didnt iaprove it he allowed it....
He made us so that people like me, unlike adam will choose to obey him. Not all of us have chosen to rebel against god.
A game company made the game full spectrum warrior, base don the USA army. The USA army does not endorse this game but allowed its creation.
He made us so that people like me, unlike adam will choose to obey him. Not all of us have chosen to rebel against god.
A game company made the game full spectrum warrior, base don the USA army. The USA army does not endorse this game but allowed its creation.
Dark Virtue
New Member
There is a huge gaping hole in your logic.
The US Army did not condone Full Spectrum Warrior. Correct. HOWEVER, the US Army did not create the game designers, it did not create the video game platforms, it did not create Pandemic Studios, it did not create the life if the video game designers, etc. etc. NOR is the US Army omniscient.
God, however, created everything necessary for Man to fall. If God is omnimax, then one must agree that God created everything with a reason. The Garden of Eden was created to facilitate man's fall.
If God didn't approve of it, why did He create it the way He did?
Why does an omnimax God create something that He doesn't approve of with full knowledge of how it will turn out?
I will go so far as to say that it was SANCTIONED by God. Sanction implies approval AND authorization.
The US Army did not condone Full Spectrum Warrior. Correct. HOWEVER, the US Army did not create the game designers, it did not create the video game platforms, it did not create Pandemic Studios, it did not create the life if the video game designers, etc. etc. NOR is the US Army omniscient.
God, however, created everything necessary for Man to fall. If God is omnimax, then one must agree that God created everything with a reason. The Garden of Eden was created to facilitate man's fall.
If God didn't approve of it, why did He create it the way He did?
Why does an omnimax God create something that He doesn't approve of with full knowledge of how it will turn out?
I will go so far as to say that it was SANCTIONED by God. Sanction implies approval AND authorization.
But the USA army created the USA army which is what the game is based on...... the USA army created everything for that company to use to give our guys a bad name.
Not apporval just let adam make his choice.
No no... If god didnt create adam, and the universe didnt unravel how it Did. Wouyld Chryle be the same? Would I be the same? He doesnt disporve of all of us, some he does some he doesnt, thats what happens when you create something with free will. Some if not most screw up and rebel.
Not apporval just let adam make his choice.
No no... If god didnt create adam, and the universe didnt unravel how it Did. Wouyld Chryle be the same? Would I be the same? He doesnt disporve of all of us, some he does some he doesnt, thats what happens when you create something with free will. Some if not most screw up and rebel.
Dark Virtue
New Member
EH? That makes no sense.[b said:
How exactly would you propose the US Army stop the production of the game?
The US Army is not responsible for the game one bit, even if it is based on the Army.
That's like saying the Wright Brothers are responsible for the 9/11 tragedy because they pioneered aircraft.
(And on a side note, how does Full Spectrum Warrior cast our soldiers in a bad light? I played the game to completion, and didn't see any content to that affect.)
God put everything in motion knowing Man would fall. God knows who will and who won't choose Him. My point, once again, is that God knows what choices will be made regardless of Free Will.
God not only is responsible for the Fall of Man, God EXPECTED IT TO HAPPEN.
Dark Virtue
New Member
By the way, just because the US Army doesn't endorse the game, doesn't mean it condemns it.
Keep that in mind.
Keep that in mind.
Why, if god knew that man would fall if he made them a certain way, did he make man that way? If you're going to blame someone for anything, you have to go to the source to get to the heart of the issue. The fact of the matter is, assuming god created us, and that god is omniscient and all powerful, there is no way around the truth that he. caused. us. to. fall. I am not ok with this, personally...apparently you are, for reasons I obviously cannot fathom.
Byblos, this is staring you in the face and you seem to be ignoring it.
Byblos, this is staring you in the face and you seem to be ignoring it.
Gandhi
New Member
Lets break it down.
Do u think god is all knowing, he created time so he should know the past the future the present?
Do u think god is all knowing, he created time so he should know the past the future the present?
Dark Virtue
New Member
Mr. Bill makes a good point. Christians should stop blaming and hating Satan. Satan is merely a puppet of God. GOD is the one responsible for all the evil and injustice in the world, not Satan, Satan is just playing his part which was mandated by God.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Crap, I forgot to add something I recently read.
God has not given us a choice, God has given us an ultimatum. Believe in Him or suffer damnation. How is that a choice? Before you object to my using the term ultimatum, let's look at the definition: "a final proposition, condition, or demand; one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action" That fits the situation perfectly.
So what good is "Free Will" when faced with a Godly ultimatum?
God has not given us a choice, God has given us an ultimatum. Believe in Him or suffer damnation. How is that a choice? Before you object to my using the term ultimatum, let's look at the definition: "a final proposition, condition, or demand; one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action" That fits the situation perfectly.
So what good is "Free Will" when faced with a Godly ultimatum?
Jim
New Member
Byblos, I do not want to attack you while you are down, so to speak, but given your past posts in this thread, I ask you these simple questions:
1) Is God omniscient? (i.e. does he know everything, past, present and future?)
2) If the above is YES, then does God not know exactly what path we will take, now and in the future? (i.e. does he know our choices and how we will decide on them?)
3) If the above answer is YES, and God knows everything we will do, our choices etc. does it not stand to reason that he would create a man, know that man will make bad choices and go to Hell as a result? Why would we go to Hell if we are simply walking a path God has foreseen? Why blame a train that proceeds along its path, as it was designed to, and then crashes when it's rail ends?
I think you are not quite getting the picture of how free will and a set path are mutually exclusive.
1) Is God omniscient? (i.e. does he know everything, past, present and future?)
2) If the above is YES, then does God not know exactly what path we will take, now and in the future? (i.e. does he know our choices and how we will decide on them?)
3) If the above answer is YES, and God knows everything we will do, our choices etc. does it not stand to reason that he would create a man, know that man will make bad choices and go to Hell as a result? Why would we go to Hell if we are simply walking a path God has foreseen? Why blame a train that proceeds along its path, as it was designed to, and then crashes when it's rail ends?
I think you are not quite getting the picture of how free will and a set path are mutually exclusive.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Let me add something else.
If the angels have Free Will, then so does Satan.
I think that we can all agree that Satan is no dummy. He was smart enough to talk 1/3 of God's creation to rebel against Him. He was smart enough to concoct a plan to overthrow God (although this didn't work).
Now...if Satan is truly crafty, full of guile AND possess Free Will, wouldn't it be possible for Satan to create the biggest coup of all and REPENT? Can you imagine the implications???
If the angels have Free Will, then so does Satan.
I think that we can all agree that Satan is no dummy. He was smart enough to talk 1/3 of God's creation to rebel against Him. He was smart enough to concoct a plan to overthrow God (although this didn't work).
Now...if Satan is truly crafty, full of guile AND possess Free Will, wouldn't it be possible for Satan to create the biggest coup of all and REPENT? Can you imagine the implications???
Kidan
Moderator
Jim, your train analogy is not quite right. A better analogy is a car itself. There are thousands upon thousands of roads in this country, and probably just as many ways to get from NY to LA. Now, if you're driving from NY to LA, I know your destination. I know exactly where you're going to end up. I can plot every single possible path you could take to get there. Therefore, I know all your possible choices, and your destination.
Does my knowing this, stop you from choosing your path?
Just because God knows all the paths, does not mean, he controls our decisions. Knowledge of a choice by a third party does not negate the ability of choose.
DV - Yes, God created evil, because He gave us free will. Evil is a byproduct of free will. If we did not have free will, then and only then, would evil not exist. Free will is our ability to choose the wrong thing.
Does my knowing this, stop you from choosing your path?
Just because God knows all the paths, does not mean, he controls our decisions. Knowledge of a choice by a third party does not negate the ability of choose.
DV - Yes, God created evil, because He gave us free will. Evil is a byproduct of free will. If we did not have free will, then and only then, would evil not exist. Free will is our ability to choose the wrong thing.
Dark Virtue
New Member
But I must ask again, what is the point of Free Will when faced with an ultimatum?
How many people chose God, not because of any love for Him, but out of FEAR?
Byblos, I will accept ANYTHING if it makes sense. Will you?
How many people chose God, not because of any love for Him, but out of FEAR?
Byblos, I will accept ANYTHING if it makes sense. Will you?
What I have and Kidan hve been saying makes perfect sense, you just dont get it!
We have the choice,
God knows what we will choose.
He lets us make the choice anyway.
We screw up.
God makes a way for us to make up for it.
Gives us the choice to accept it or not.
Thats free will. Free will created Evil, god created free will.
We have the choice,
God knows what we will choose.
He lets us make the choice anyway.
We screw up.
God makes a way for us to make up for it.
Gives us the choice to accept it or not.
Thats free will. Free will created Evil, god created free will.
Jim
New Member
Thank you Kidan. That was a thought-provoking reply, but I still think it is flawed. If anything, it perhaps hints that God is not as altruistic as he appears.
You are forgetting that God knows exactly which path I will take and the end result.
Let me put it this way: You want someone to be good. You want someone to join you in heaven. But you know this person will do a terrible thing. Why? Because you SEE that person doing that thing. There are multiple paths, but they might as well not exist since God KNOWS what path they are taking. He KNOWS what decision he will make, KNOWS how that person will decide. Otherwise, is he omniscient?
To make an analogy of my own, you put a kleptomaniac in a room with a silver spoon. You tell him not to take it. He takes it. You punish him for it. I know kleptomaniacs are not in control when they take things (apparently) but think of the situation; He is placed there by a person who knows full well what he will do. He KNOWS that person will steal, there isn't really any question. God is capable of creating a person who will avoid such a thing, but he doesn't. He makes us as we are, walking toward choices that are pretty much already made in God's eyes.
I do understand your analogy: The start and the end, God knows the paths and allows us to choose, but that is overlooking the fact that God KNOWS what path we will take.
You are forgetting that God knows exactly which path I will take and the end result.
Let me put it this way: You want someone to be good. You want someone to join you in heaven. But you know this person will do a terrible thing. Why? Because you SEE that person doing that thing. There are multiple paths, but they might as well not exist since God KNOWS what path they are taking. He KNOWS what decision he will make, KNOWS how that person will decide. Otherwise, is he omniscient?
To make an analogy of my own, you put a kleptomaniac in a room with a silver spoon. You tell him not to take it. He takes it. You punish him for it. I know kleptomaniacs are not in control when they take things (apparently) but think of the situation; He is placed there by a person who knows full well what he will do. He KNOWS that person will steal, there isn't really any question. God is capable of creating a person who will avoid such a thing, but he doesn't. He makes us as we are, walking toward choices that are pretty much already made in God's eyes.
I do understand your analogy: The start and the end, God knows the paths and allows us to choose, but that is overlooking the fact that God KNOWS what path we will take.