You're not a true believer unless you can...

Jim... we are not the kleptomaniac, we have control and we choose to disobey him. God knows we will choose the wrong thing and he knows we have control.... So he wllows us to make the choice, instead of putting a maniac in that room put a sane person with a golden spoon. Some will choose to steal it and run, some will not. Its a choice.

Imagine this. a sane person in a room with a golden spoon. The guy in control knows whats goping to happen but he says. Dont touch the spoon it will kill you. YThen he leaves the guy in the room alone with the spoon. Then a Hot girl comes along and says, go ahead take the spoon the guy was lying. He takes the spoon and is punished. Did he not choose to take it anyway?
You cannot use an insane person as your base here. We are not insane and we have control over whether or not we defy God. He knows which of us will follow him and which of us will rebel. But we still get to choose.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What I have and Kidan hve been saying makes perfect sense, you just dont get it!
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I don't get it because it doesn't make PERFECT sense.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We have the choice,
God knows what we will choose.
He lets us make the choice anyway.
We screw up.
God makes a way for us to make up for it.
Gives us the choice to accept it or not.
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As I have already stated, God didn't give us a choice, God gave us an ULTIMATUM. Do you agree or disagree on the term ultimatum?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Thats free will. Free will created Evil, god created free will.
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Free Will has no power of creation.

God created evil.

Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We have the choice,
God knows what we will choose.
He lets us make the choice anyway.
We screw up.
God makes a way for us to make up for it.
Gives us the choice to accept it or not.
Click to expand...

My apologies Byblos but that makes no sense given what we are dicussing.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]God knows what we will choose.
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Pick a hand, any hand, although I know you will pick my left.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]He lets us make the choice anyway.
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And If you do pick the left, you're for it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We screw up.
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You picked my left hand. Now you're for it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]God makes a way for us to make up for it.
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I'll give you a break. Pick my right this time and all is forgiven.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Gives us the choice to accept it or not.
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By the way, I know you will pick my left hand again, but go ahead anyway.

Byblos, I'm not sure if you read our replies, but Kidan has understood our points and has made a good argument against my above point. You haven't tried, except to state over and over the same points that we have already discussed and disagreed with.
 
Kidan said the same thing I said just in different words.

You have a choice, he knows what you will choose.
You still have to make the choice.
Pick him, or pick Satan. You two pick Satan every day. And every day he asks again.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Oct. 06 2004,11:43)]Jim, your train analogy is not quite right.  A better analogy is a car itself.  There are thousands upon thousands of roads in this country, and probably just as many ways to get from NY to LA.  Now, if you're driving from NY to LA, I know your destination.  I know exactly where you're going to end up.  I can plot every single possible path you could take to get there. Therefore, I know all your possible choices, and your destination.

Does my knowing this, stop you from choosing your path?

Just because God knows all the paths, does not mean, he controls our decisions.  Knowledge of a choice by a third party does not negate the ability of choose.


DV - Yes, God created evil, because He gave us free will.  Evil is a byproduct of free will.  If we did not have free will, then and only then, would evil not exist.  Free will is our ability to choose the wrong thing.
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I'm sorry, but your analogy doesn't work either.

It fails to address WHY you are going from NY to LA and the consequences for NOT making the trip.

Please critique my analogy of the shotgun and the cookie.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ByblosHex @ Oct. 06 2004,12:04)]
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Kidan said the same thing I said just in different words.
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And both your arguments have similar problems.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You have a choice, he knows what you will choose.
You still have to make the choice.
Pick him, or pick Satan. You two pick Satan every day. And every day he asks again.
Click to expand...

Please address the issue of choice vs ultimatum.
 
No one has yet addressed the question of why god created us with such huge susceptability to falling. Seems rather cruel to me.

Byblos, get over yourself and realize that your arguement is nonsensical, as we have proven over and over and over all throughout this thread. Kidan made a much better attempt, though I believe it is still flawed.

Kidan, while your analogy of the many different paths that a car take is much more accurate, it seems to me that god should know absolutely everything. He should be able to calculate exactly what we will do when given a set of circumstances, shouldn't he? And also there is the issue of why he made us this way to begin with. That, I believe, is the heart of this issue.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No one has yet addressed the question of why god created us with such huge susceptability to falling. Seems rather cruel to me.
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Yes, I have. God created Man that way. God intended, needed, condoned, sanctioned and created the Fall of Man.
 
Byblos, I would consider it a personal favour if you could answer the questions I posed before.

To reiterate:

1) Is God omniscient? (i.e. does he know everything, past, present and future?)

2) If the above is YES, then does God not know exactly what path we will take, now and in the future? (i.e. does he know our choices and how we will decide on them?)

3) If the above answer is YES, and God knows everything we will do, our choices etc. does it not stand to reason that he would create a man, know that man will make bad choices and go to Hell as a result? Why would we go to Hell if we are simply walking a path God has foreseen? Why blame a train that proceeds along its path, as it was designed to, and then crashes when it's rail ends?

Could you please offer concise answers to each question posed above?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Oct. 06 2004,12:22)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No one has yet addressed the question of why god created us with such huge susceptability to falling.  Seems rather cruel to me.  
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Yes, I have.  God created Man that way.  God intended, needed, condoned, sanctioned and created the Fall of Man.
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lol..yes, but I was hoping for someone on the other side to retort tho DV. : )
 
Oh.

tounge.gif
 
Yeah God kbnows everything at all times. Hes the CPU, all information is processed through him.

Yeah God knows what we are going to do.

Your tain example is good. Like the train alot of us are going to crash at the end. But he has given us the ability to create our own rail. And alot of us choose to create rails which lead off cliffs and into walls. He knows which of us will make which rails but he still lets us do it our way.

If you odnt want to screw it up then ask for him to guide you. If you dont want him to guide you, he will not. So if you want the person who knows the outcome to help you out then ask him to.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yeah God kbnows everything at all times. Hes the CPU, all information is processed through him.
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We agree. The God you are referring to is omniscient.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Your tain example is good. Like the train alot of us are going to crash at the end. But he has given us the ability to create our own rail. And alot of us choose to create rails which lead off cliffs and into walls. He knows which of us will make which rails but he still lets us do it our way.
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I ask you: How do we have tha ability to create our own rail? This I cannot understand; God foresees a set future. As I have already used the analogy of the 'pick a hand, any hand', allow me to expand on it:

God knows what I am going to do: I want to kill someone. I go and kill the guy. My two choices were, simply enough, kill or don't.

Now here is where I believe we are on different wavelengths:

When I killed the guy, I was excersising choice, right? But what is choice? When I have two or more options. Two or more that I, me, myself, and no one else can alter, influence. That is choice.

DV asks what is a choice and what is an ultimatum. But is there even that? Think about it: If God knows everything, he knows exactly what the outcome of every given choice will be. EVERY GIVEN CHOICE. I cannot understand how you can have a choice if everything is already pre-set. God KNOWS WHAT I AM GOING TO DO. He knows precisely what outcome will occur for EVERY choice I make. Therefore, where is my choice? It is like asking "What do you want for dinner?" "I'd like steak." "I already knew you were going to choose steak." "Fine, then, I'll choose a burger." "Ah, but I already knew you would change your mind."

If this confuses you, imagine how I feel.

This makes no sense. Please, anyone, if you can explain how this works in a clear, concise fashion, let me know because until I do, this topic will be torturing me.
 
Hey Mr. Bill. Shut up!

Jim, you shut up too!

Me? Yeah, I need to shut up too.

Why? Because according to God, we shouldn't question Him.

Read on my friends...

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Romans 9
9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[3]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
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This begs the same question we have been asking...why give us Free Will? God has already made up His mind before we were born.

This Free Will deal is getting weaker and weaker.
 
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