You're not a true believer unless you can...

No responses...I hope you guys know that the Shut Ups were SARCASM
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Here's what I have to say on the matter. First, God's ways are not are ways. There are somethings we may never understand, unless God chooses for us to, i.e. I never understood how there couldn't be time before God, and have thus come to the realization that I won't understand.

But as for you question, when you leave a young child in a room full of candy, you don't want him to take this candy, you even go so much as to tell him not to take it, but he takes the candy anyway, and you knew that he most likely was going to. The Child takes the candy, you correct him, and leave him there once again. Now you know that some of these children (assuming there is more than one) are going to take his candy, and that others aren't, but you leave this choice to them, and put them in the room anyway.

Our world is like this.
We live in a world full of temptation and sin, and God knows that some of us are going to give in to this sin, and that some aren't. However, he leaves the choice up to us, knowing that we have been warned. If we don't come to Christ, we will get what is coming to us. God has given the choice to us, knowing that some will turn away, and knowing that others won't. I hope this helps
 
Penguin, in order to make your analogy fit better, you would have to harm the child that took the candy. Without that, then your pretense would be that the children were given a fair choice, eat the candy or not. You don't explain how the child was corrected. My assertation is that "choice" is an improper term, what humanity has been given is an "ultimatum".

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We live in a world full of temptation and sin, and God knows that some of us are going to give in to this sin, and that some aren't. However, he leaves the choice up to us, knowing that we have been warned.
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God knew before the world was created who would sin and who wouldn't. Therefore, God created Man knowing that some part of His creation would be damned before He ever made them. Non-theists question how this could be considered part of God's all loving character. If God was perfectly loving then He wouldn't want to see ANY of his creation harmed. And yet He built failure into us.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No responses...I hope you guys know that the Shut Ups were SARCASM
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I knew it was sarcasm. Don't worry about that
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Here's what I have to say on the matter.  First, God's ways are not are ways.  There are somethings we may never understand, unless God chooses for us to, i.e. I never understood how there couldn't be time before God, and have thus come to the realization that I won't understand.  
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Indeed, but as humans with curiosity, it is our duty to indulge our desire to know more. The OT is full of instances of ambiguous morality, God changing his mind (Which is odd, since he knows what will happen, why did he start his first choice?). By Christianity, we are expected to believe He is the apex of moral superiority. The huge difference in God's attitude in the New and Old Testaments is cause enough to merit question.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]But as for you question, when you leave a young child in a room full of candy, you don't want him to take this candy, you even go so much as to tell him not to take it, but he takes the candy anyway, and you knew that he most likely was going to.  The Child takes the candy, you correct him, and leave him there once again.  Now you know that some of these children (assuming there is more than one) are going to take his candy, and that others aren't, but you leave this choice to them, and put them in the room anyway.
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Once again, I must disagree. First of all, for your analogy to work, the man would have to know without any doubt that the child would take the candy. He would have to know exactly each and every outcome of each and every choice anyone makes. If he knows, for example, that a man WILL kill someone, (God sees and knows all, so this is pretty easy for Him), yet he sends him on his merry way. This is not choice. This is allowing someone to do something he KNOWS will happen.

The analogy you described was more in line with God NOT knowing exactly what would happen. The man in your example MIGHT know what will happen, but allows it anyway, just to see if he is correct. God KNOWS the outcome, but allows it anyway. There is a difference between choosing from two options and picking an option that was pre-determined.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We live in a world full of temptation and sin, and God knows that some of us are going to give in to this sin, and that some aren't. However, he leaves the choice up to us, knowing that we have been warned. If we don't come to Christ, we will get what is coming to us. God has given the choice to us, knowing that some will turn away (I Timothy 4:12), and knowing that others won't. I hope this helps
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I still don't see how this logic adds up. You said yourself: God knows that some of us are going to give in to this sin and that some aren't. If he knows, and allows us to commit sins he KNOWS we will commit, it suggests a lack of altruism on God's part. I thought evil was a result of choices? What choice do we have, if our paths are pre-set?

I move to suggest that if the paths our lives take is ultimately known to God, that our choices have already been seen by Him, then it stands to reason that He authors suffering and evil caused by wrong choices.

Hmmm. I don't think I'm quite getting my message across. Tell me where I am unclear and I'll try to make it clearer.
 
God wants us to come to him, but he knows that not everyone will. If God were dictating the world, we all would go to heaven, but because of God's freewill, there will be sinners and those who burn. I really can't explain any better than I already have. sorry I am not much help.

BTW I agree, my analogy needs work, thanks DV.
 
If God wants us to come to Him, then why does He hide Himself from us?

If God knows me intimately, the number of hairs on my head, what makes me tick, sees my past present and future, then God knows what it will take for me to believe in Him. God hasn't met those requirements, thus keeping me from believing.
 
Where did I say that God was stooping down to any level?

If God knows what will trigger my belief, then by not activating that trigger, I will never believe.

You and every follower of Christ had a trigger. Yours was activated. Mine is not.

God knows what it will take for me to believe. If He wants me to believe in Him, He will make it so.
 
Well if God is showing himself to a scummy creature like oyu that is stooping down.

What takes you to belive is you to choose it. Its not his choice its yours.
 
please no personal attacks here byblos

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Well if God is showing himself to a scummy creature like oyu that is stooping down.

What takes you to belive is you to choose it. Its not his choice its yours.
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THat wasnt a personal attack... Dont speak with me if you dont know where im going with this then keep it to yourself.
 
I dont care what it seemed to you I wasnt talking to you. Now dont hijack our conversation with your accusations..... I know there are no personal attacks, I said Scummy creature, not Scummy person. there is a difference, it was NOT personal.
 
Sheesh, Byblos, calm down.

Wouldn't you say that we are ALL scummy beings? With many faults compared to an omnipotent God?

As I said, if God wants me to believe, He knows what switch to flip. Until then, I will continue the search on my own.
 
We are all scummy beings is my point Dark Virtue. I am calm.
Also I said to you scummy creature, not being and I am the same creature as you am I not? and So is that LoJ.... wera all scummy creatures because we are the same creature. HUMAN.

No one deserves him to stoop to us, that is my point.
We need to desire it for him to even consider it!

We are all scummy, disgusting little ingrateful sinners, And we DO NOT i any way shape or form deserve God's attention, but he wants to give it to us if we want him back!
 
Why do we not deserve His attention? He made us after all.

DESIRE isn't enough Byblos, why can't you understand that?

I DESIRE every week to win the lottery but it doesn't happen. I can't WILL myself to win the lottery.

I can't WILL myself to believe in God. No matter how much I squint my eyes it will not happen.
 
we are sick and choose to disobey him and abuse everything he has given us! Thats why we dont deserve him.

Desire is all that matters to God... God doesnt care about the lottery... If you desire to do Evil thats what he sees. IF you desire to do Good thats what he sees. Your desire is as just as important as what you do!
You desire a woman who isnt your wife, God sees you as an Adulterer.
Desire is what God sees.... Desiring to know god and to beluve God is what it takes. He isnt the lottery.
 
If you lust for any woman that isnt your wife thats adultry. Jesus said that exact thing in matthew.

Im not saying I dont do it, because I do. Im a sleezy sinning piece of crap.
 
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