You're not a true believer unless you can...

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (ByblosHex @ Oct. 08 2004,5:44)]We are all scummy beings is my point Dark Virtue. I am calm.
Also I said to you scummy creature, not being and I am the same creature as you am I not? and So is that LoJ.... wera all scummy creatures because we are the same creature. HUMAN.

No one deserves him to stoop to us, that is my point.
We need to desire it for him to even consider it!

We are all scummy, disgusting little ingrateful sinners, And we DO NOT i any way shape or form deserve God's attention, but he wants to give it to us if we want him back!

Byblos, before you go around calling everyone scummy creatures, I think you should take into consideration that not all people believe that, and may take offense. For instance, I happen to believe that all humans are inherently good, not bad. I think it is wrong that Christianity focuses so intently on the so called evils of humanity, I think it just advocates depression and low self esteem.

I understand your frustration, as your beliefs are constantly being attacked on this forum. But instead of ignoring people, I would suggest that you instead look at it as a learning experience. I know many Christians who enjoy having their beliefs challenged, as it forces them to defend their beliefs, in turn making them stronger and more fortified. Belief for the right reasons if you will. If you are never challenged, you could have a million logic holes and never notice. But that doesn't mean that the means to fill those holes do not exist.

 

[ByblosHex]

You are a scummy being. You sin and you lust and I am calling you a scummy being, by my standard you are scum, by Gods standard we are all scum. Go ahead and get offended by my opinion.

Low selfe esteem? YOur backwards.... you see the fact that God loves and wants to forgive you no matter how scummy you are should Raise your esteem, not lower it.

I dont ignore them.. I just refuse to respond. Im not here to learn from poeple, God teaches me all I need to know, I am here to discuss God's word.
I could have a million holes and it doesnt matter, once I get to God's presense hell patch it all up. I need all I need to know, sure knowing more is great, But Knowing your a sinner saved by grace is ALL you need to know.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Well noted hescomingsoon.

Quote[/b] ]we are sick and choose to disobey him and abuse everything he has given us! Thats why we dont deserve him.

WHY are we sick? We were MADE this way.

Quote[/b] ]Desire is all that matters to God... God doesnt care about the lottery... If you desire to do Evil thats what he sees. IF you desire to do Good thats what he sees. Your desire is as just as important as what you do!
You desire a woman who isnt your wife, God sees you as an Adulterer.
Desire is what God sees.... Desiring to know god and to beluve God is what it takes. He isnt the lottery.

Come on Byblos, it's called an ANALOGY.

You skipped over everything meaningful in my thread. Let me reiterate...

You claim that understanding God is as simple as desiring it. I'm telling you that is not the case. Wanting to know God isn't enough. I can want it day and night like I've never wanted anything else and it won't happen. Do you know why? BECAUSE I'VE ALREADY BEEN THERE and it never happened. And I am not alone. There are many, many people that feel the same way. Desire is not enough. You can't will it to happen.

 

[ByblosHex]

We are sick because we choose to be. You are all about being independant from god, so dont try to blambe him for all of your screw ups. We screw up, not God...

There, now im done with this thread as well.

 

[Dark Virtue]

You're doing the fandango all around the issues.

Yes, man is sick and depraved compared to an omnimax being.

WHY, though is Man so faulty? Because we were designed this way. Fact. End of story. How hypocritical is it to create a being that is prone to error and then damn him for eternity for creating errors?

If I'm wrong here, please, someone correct me.

 

[LLAMA]

It is not hypocritical though. God gave us free will, did he not? It is because of this free will that some people do not believe in God because of their own choices. Some people are never told of Jesus' unselfish death therefore they know not that they are sinning.

According to what you said, we are condemned because of our errors.

Quote[/b] ]How hypocritical is it to create a being that is prone to error and then damn him for eternity for creating errors?

God gave us a way to break free of hell. He sent his son to die for our sins.

Quote[/b] ]How hypocritical is it to create a being that is prone to error and then damn him for eternity for creating errors?

Actually, back in Genesus, God created Adam and Eve, both of which were definitely not prone to error. Eve was deceived. Because of the deception and the eating of the fruit from the tree, humans are now erroneous.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Free Will is a great thing, but you guys are missing the point.

Free Will means NOTHING when put against Omniscience.

God knew from the start that Eve would be decieved. God knew from the start that Satan would fall. God knew from the start that the world was so bad that He would destroy it with a flood. God knew from the start that Christ would have to die for Man.

God knew all these things.

Therefore, one must agree that God created Man to fall. God created Satan to decieve Man. God already knew the outcomes.

Put the shoe on the other foot for once. Stop thinking about yourself, you're "saved", right? Think about the person that never heard God's word. Think about the person that chose not to follow Christ. God KNEW those people were damned before the universe existed. If God was TRULY, PERFECTLY loving, then how could He allow one hair to be harmed on any one of His creation?

 

[Rithkil]

Because God loves us but hates sin. Think about that a bit.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ok, your turn.

Think about this...

If God TRULY loves us, loves ALL men, then why did God create Sin? Why did God create Evil? Why did God make man with the proclivity to sin? Why did God make man KNOWING he would sin?

 

[Rithkil]

Does it say anywhere that God created Sin? Does Sin have anything to do with Love? Does it say anywhere that God created evil? Satan deceived Adam and Eve in the garden. God made Adam and Eve perfect! But since they didn't know good and evil, they were decieved. By who? Satan. Satan fell because of his pride. God never told them about Satan. We will never fully understand God. Why he created man, even though we will all sin, is a mystery none of us can answer. Asking questions that no human being can answer will leave you unsatisfied. You might have to look elsewhere. Otherwise, you'll have to wait and ask God. Our minds are just a droplet in an ocean of God's wisdom. Like I said, we will never fully understand him.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ask and ye shall find.

Isaiah 45
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.

Quote[/b] ]Satan deceived Adam and Eve in the garden. God made Adam and Eve perfect! But since they didn't know good and evil, they were decieved. By who? Satan. Satan fell because of his pride. God never told them about Satan.

Who created Adam and Eve knowing they would be deceived? Who created Satan knowing he would fall? Who created the Garden of Eden to facilitate the Fall of Man? God creates all things. God created the light, God created the darkness. Note that the Bible doesn't say that darkness is an absence of light. God created BOTH things. If God is the author of good, then God is the author of evil.

You claim to know God only when it suits you. If you can't understand God, then isn't it possible that you can't understand why God created Evil as well as Good?

Quote[/b] ]Like I said, we will never fully understand him.

Rithkil, I'm sorry, but this is hypocritical. You tell the nonbelievers not to bother questioning God because our minds are so puny that we will never be able to understand Him. Yet YOU seem to understand Him well enough to trust your present and after life to Him.

 

[Rithkil]

Now that's taking things out of context. I never said to not bother questioning God. I said we will never FULLY understand him. As a believer, I know that he loves every single one of us. What we don't know is what plan he has for us in our lives. Do you know everything God has planned for you? Or what he has planned for everybody else? Or all the secrets of creation? That's what I mean. We won't see on this earth God's big plan.

I don't know why God has made us knowing we were flawed. That's what I was saying as well. I don't think anybody does, save God himself. I don't think we'll ever know until we get to see him.

Does that clear things up a bit?

 

[Dark Virtue]

I apologize if I took something out of context, that was not my intention.

If anything, I am doing what God set forth in the Bible:

1 Thessalonians 5
21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.

I am testing, I haven't found anything worth holding on to. That may sound extreme, but it is the truth. When and if I find something worthy of believing in, I shall. As of yet, I have found no proof or evidence to believe in God.

 

[Rithkil]

It is good to think about things. Nothing wrong with testing. But it does say in the bible that "Thou shalt not put thy Lord thy God to the test." Not that that's what you're doing, just making sure nobody takes it the wrong way.

Nothing wrong with the truth. I believe, if there's something worth holding onto, it's God's love. God's love is unconditional. There has to be a creator or God if you look at our world. How else could've this happened? Keep looking. Never stop wondering about God.

 

[Marcylene]

I must admit the original question made me stop and think. Honestly, seeing what the world has done with those things that are mentioned, I want no part. God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, those things are still possible. Once again, however, I think the "so called" examples of those things today are far removed. Was His intention a bunch of snake stepping, poison drinking, spirit slaying, demon exercising, tongue tied mumbo jumbo? Nah, in my heart of hearts I feel it has been all taken out of context.
Here, my wonderful friend Matthew Henry says it wonderfully here, in regards to Mark 16:14-18
Here is, I. The conviction which Christ gave his apostles of the truth of his resurrection (v. 14); He appeared to them himself, when they were all together, as they sat at meat, which gave him an opportunity to eat and drink with them, for their full satisfaction; see Acts 10:41. And still, when he appeared to them, he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, for even at the general meeting in Galilee, some doubted, as we find Mt. 28:17. Note, The evidences of the truth of the gospel are so full, that those who receive it not, may justly be upbraided with their unbelief; and it is owing not to any weakness or deficiency in the proofs, but to the hardness of their heart, its senselessness and stupidity. Though they had not till now seen him themselves, they are justly blamed because they believed not them who had seen him after he was risen; and perhaps it was owing in part to the pride of their hearts, that they did not; for they thought, "If indeed he be risen, to whom should he delight to do the honour of showing himself but to us?’’ And if he pass them by, and show himself to others first, they cannot believe it is he. Thus many disbelieve the doctrine of Christ, because they think it below them to give credit to such as he had chosen to be the witnesses and publishers of it. Observe, It will not suffice for an excuse of our infidelity in the great day, to say, "We did not see him after he was risen,’’ for we ought to have believed the testimony of those who did see him. II. The commission which he gave them to set up his kingdom among men by the preaching of his gospel, the glad tidings of reconciliation to God through a Mediator. Now observe, 1. To whom they were to preach the gospel. Hitherto they had been sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and were forbidden to go into the way of the Gentiles, or into any city of the Samaritans; but now their commission is enlarged, and they are authorized to go into all the world, into all parts of the world, the habitable world, and to preach the gospel of Christ to every creature, to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews; to every human creature that is capable of receiving it. "Inform them concerning Christ, the history of his life, and death, and resurrection; instruct them in the meaning and intention of these, and of the advantages which the children of men have, or may have, hereby; and invite them, without exception, to come and share in them. This is gospel. Let this be preached in all places, to all persons.’’ These eleven men could not themselves preach it to all the world, much less to every creature in it; but they and the other disciples, seventy in number, with those who should afterward to be added to them, must disperse themselves several ways, and, wherever they went, carry the gospel along with them. They must send others to those places whither they could not go themselves, and, in short, make it the business of their lives to send those glad tidings up and down the world with all possible fidelity and care, not as an amusement or entertainment, but as a solemn message from God to men, and an appointed means of making men happy. "Tell as many as you can, and bid them tell others; it is a message of universal concern, and therefore, ought to have a universal welcome, because it gives a universal welcome.’’ 2. What is the summary of the gospel they are to preach (v. 16); "Set before the world life and death, good and evil. Tell the children of men that they are all in a state of misery and danger, condemned by their prince, and conquered and enslaved by their enemies.’’ This is supposed in their being saved, which they would not need to be if they were not lost. "Now go and tell them,’’ (1.) "That if they believe the gospel, and give up themselves to be Christ’s disciples; if they renounce the devil, the world, and the flesh, and be devoted to Christ as their prophet, priest, and king, and to God in Christ a their God in covenant, and evidence by their constant adherence to this covenant their sincerity herein, they shall be saved from the guilt and power of sin, it shall not rule them, it shall not ruin them. He that is a true Christian, shall be saved through Christ.’’ Baptism was appointed to be the inaugurating rite, by which those that embraced Christ owned him; but it is here put rather for the thing signified than for the sign, for Simon Magus believed and was baptized, yet was not saved, Acts 8:13. Believing with the heart, and confessing with the mouth the Lord Jesus (Rom. 10:9), seems to be much the same with this here. Or thus, We must as sent to gospel-truths, and con sent to gospel-terms. (2.) "If they believe not, if they receive not the record God gives concerning his Son, they cannot expect any other way of salvation, but must inevitably perish; they shall be damned, by the sentence of a despised gospel, added to that of a broken law.’’ And even this is gospel, it is good news, that nothing else but unbelief shall damn men, which is a sin against the remedy. Dr. Whitby here observes, that they who hence infer "that the infant seed of believers are not capable of baptism, because they cannot believe, must hence also infer that they cannot be saved; faith being here more expressly required to salvation than to baptism. And that in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation, otherwise infants might be damned for the mistakes or profaneness of their parents.’’ 3. What power they should be endowed with, for the confirmation of the doctrine they were to preach (v. 17); These signs shall follow them that believe. Not that all who believe, shall be able to produce these signs, but some, even as many as were employed in propagating the faith, and bringing others to it; for signs are intended for them that believe not; see 1 Co. 14:22. It added much to the glory and evidence of the gospel, that the preachers not only wrought miracles themselves, but conferred upon others a power to work miracles, which power followed some of them that believed, wherever they went to preach. They shall do wonders in Christ’s name, the same name into which they were baptized, in the virtue of power derived from him, and fetched in by prayer. Some particular signs are mentioned; (1.) They shall cast out devils; this power was more common among Christians than any other, and lasted longer, as appears by the testimonies of Justin Martyr, Origen, Irenaeus, Tertullian Minutius Felix, and others, cited by Grotius on this place. (2.) They shall speak with new tongues, which they had never learned, or been acquainted with; and this was both a miracle (a miracle upon the mind ), for the confirming of the truth of the gospel, and a means of spreading the gospel among those nations that had not heard it. It saved the preachers a vast labour in learning the languages; and, no doubt, they who by miracle were made masters of languages, were complete masters of them and of all their native elegancies, which were proper both to instruct and affect, which would very much recommend them and their preaching. (3.) They shall take up serpents. This was fulfilled in Paul, who was not hurt by the viper that fastened on his hand, which was acknowledged a great miracle by the barbarous people, Acts 28:5, 6. They shall be kept unhurt by that generation of vipers among whom they live, and by the malice of the old serpent. (4.) If they be compelled by their persecutors to drink any deadly poisonous thing, it shall not hurt them: of which very thing some instances are found in ecclesiastical history. (5.) They shall not only be preserved from hurt themselves, but they shall be enabled to do good to others; They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover, as multitudes had done by their master’s healing touch. Many of the elders of the church had this power, as appears by Jam. 5:14, where, as an instituted sign of this miraculous healing, they are said to anoint the sick with oil in the name of the Lord. With what assurance of success might they go about executing their commission, when they had such credentials as these to produce!
Thank you ever so much, Mr. Henry.

I had to go and ask someone much more well versed in Scripture than myself. I know that Jesus told the theif beside Him on the Cross that he would be with Him in Paradise on that day. Therefore, baptism does not effect my Salvation. In addition, I eschew those things that are supposable "signs." Then, too, weighing Scripture against Scripture, it would seem to contradict at face value. However, God is not a liar so contradiction is not an option. Only my understanding was at fault here. Once again, I would like to thank Matthew Henry for his life's work.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Rithkil @ Oct. 15 2004,11:16)]It is good to think about things. Nothing wrong with testing. But it does say in the bible that "Thou shalt not put thy Lord thy God to the test." Not that that's what you're doing, just making sure nobody takes it the wrong way.

Nothing wrong with the truth. I believe, if there's something worth holding onto, it's God's love. God's love is unconditional. There has to be a creator or God if you look at our world. How else could've this happened? Keep looking. Never stop wondering about God.

Then shouldn't 1 Thessalonians 5 say, "Test everything...except for God. Hold on to the good."

I believe YOU are now the one taking things out of context. "Do not test God your Lord" (Deut. 6:16). The contextual meaning of this verse is that "We are commanded not to test God by asking for a miracle or demanding an immediate reward for our good deeds".

Quote[/b] ]There has to be a creator or God if you look at our world. How else could've this happened? Keep looking.

That is a completely one-sided view of life. No offense, but there are MILLIONS of people that will disagree with your view.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]I had to go and ask someone much more well versed in Scripture than myself. I know that Jesus told the theif beside Him on the Cross that he would be with Him in Paradise on that day. Therefore, baptism does not effect my Salvation. In addition, I eschew those things that are supposable "signs." Then, too, weighing Scripture against Scripture, it would seem to contradict at face value. However, God is not a liar so contradiction is not an option. Only my understanding was at fault here.

So there IS no contradiction here? How do you explain the different views? Are other people's understands to blame? If that is the case, how can you be so sure YOU are the one that is correct? Whatever answer you give, could not those Christians who have a dissenting view use your answer to support their view?

 

[Marcylene]

Oh, contrar'!  There is much debat on interpretations,

  it is our understanding that is darkened, not God's Word.
I study, ask God to help my unbelief as exampled in the Scripture:
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Mark 9:24
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Romans 3:3  
Then pray for the knowledge and understaning of God taught in Proverbs.
Yes, sir, they can all give different views.  For me, personally, I love fellowship with the body of Christ.  I feel that if they believe in Jesus Christ, His death, burial and resurrection, then we have LOTS in common.  If they enjoy speaking about and praising the LORD, I LOVE IT!  Adding to Jesus, for me, is just a bunch of pin dancing angels!
As for knowing I am right, my teachers are somewhat accountable for me!  I feel that I have been blessed beyond measure in the instances of God putting wonderful teachers, preachers, and examples in my daily walk.  Then, first and foremost leaving His Word for me to study.  I spend time with the LORD daily in prayer and in the Word and measure what I am taught to the very best of my ability.  I condemn no one, and want to agree with the Saviour The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. II Peter 3:9

                                                                                

 

[Dark Virtue]

Some of the questions I posed still stand Marcy.

What makes you right over another Christian with a dissenting view? You both believe you have been taught to the best of your abilities. You both believe that you are blessed by God in understanding. You have both prayed and studied. You both believe you have the gift of the Holy Spirit. Yet you both come up with dissenting views.

Who, then is right, if you can't both be correct?

 

[Marcylene]

me