Partial birth abortion is here to stay

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]It is scientifically proven that life begins at conception. Where there is life there is a soul and thus a human being.

Not according to the Bible, reference the quotes in my earlier post.

Quote[/b] ]Even God spared Adam and Eve's life.
I believe that no one can Sin for something that is not their fault. If my father was a murder do I equally bear on my soul those murders?
I think your misinterpiting the Bible.

How am I misinterpreting the stories of the Bible, some of which I have included above?  God killed children, God ordered children killed.  Now if children are pure of spirit, there had to have been a valid reason for God wanting them dead.  So what am I missing?

Quote[/b] ]The only viable option for abortion is if either the baby dies and the mother lives or they both die.

Quote[/b] ]So now you're saying there IS a viable option for abortion?  Earlier you agreed with Vanaze when he said that he was anti-abortion PERIOD.  So which is it?

I never said that.

EH?  You DID say that, all I did was cut and paste. Vanaze said, "I'm anti-abortion, period." And you said, "Exactly my view." Now how can you hold that view and say, "The only viable option for abortion is if either the baby dies and the mother lives or they both die." That infers that there IS a viable option for abortion.

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]
It is scientifically proven that life begins at conception. Where there is life there is a soul and thus a human being.

So animals have souls too, then? After all they have life.
And what about when the cells are dividing? Do they each have their own soul?

Quote[/b] ]SO will people on life-support, should they be taken off?

If there is no hope for recovery ( such as being brain dead. ), and keeping that person alive would use up doctors' and nurses' time that could be spent on patiences that can recover, then yes.

Quote[/b] ]
It is better than explaining to the child why you killed them for something that is not there fault.

Kids can make rash desicions. I'm sure most teens would commit suicide.

Quote[/b] ]Every life is a blessing.

So is Satan's life a blessing?

Quote[/b] ]
Jesus said "Whetever you do to the littleist of them, you also do to me."

But a fetus is NOT a child.

 

[Luinnar]

These are from http://www.priestsforlife.org
And no I am not a Catholic.(I don't have anything aginst them either)

Quote[/b] ]Excerpt from…

The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles

The Didache

(1st Century AD)



The Lord's Teaching to the Heathen by the Twelve Apostles:

1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death; and between the two ways there is a great difference.

2 Now, this is the way of life:…

The second commandment of the Teaching: "Do not murder; do not commit adultery"; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; "do not steal"; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. "Do not covet your neighbor's property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness"; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is "a deadly snare." Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/didache.htm

Quote[/b] ]
Pre-Christian Sources



Ovid (43 BC - AD 65)

Of what avail to fair woman to rest free from the burdens of war [i.e. pregnancy], nor choose with shield in arm to march in the fierce array, if, free from peril of battle, she suffer wounds from weapons of her own, and arm her unforeseeing hands to her own undoing?

She who first plucked forth the tender life deserved to die in the warfare she began. Can it be that, to spare your bosom the reproach of lines, you would scatter the tragic sands of deadly combat?

-De Nuce, lines 22-23; cf. Amores 2.13



Juvenal (c.57/67-127)

Poor women…endure the perils of childbirth, and all the troubles of nursing to which their lot condemns them; but how often does a gilded bed contain a woman that is lying in it? So great is the skill, so powerful the drugs, of the abortionist, paid to murder mankind within the womb.

-Satire 6.592-601

 

Musonius

In reference to Augustinian legislation of 28 BC and 9 AD:

-The lawgivers, who had the same task of searching out and finding what was good for the city and what bad, and what helped or harmed it, did not they also consider that it was most beneficial to their cities to fill the houses of the citizens, and most harmful to deplete them? They considered that childlessness, or small families, of citizens was unprofitable, while to have children, and in fact many children, was profitable. Therefore, they forbade the women to abort and attached a penalty to those who disobeyed; secondly they forbade them to use contraceptives on themselves and to prevent pregnancy; finally they established honors for both men and women who had many children and made childlessness punishable.

-Fragment 15a

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/earlychurchfathers/pre.html

Quote[/b] ]Quotes from Early Councils

 

Council of Elvira (c. 305)

Canon 68: If a catechumen should conceive by an adulterer, and should procure the death of the child, she can be baptized only at the end of her life.



Council of Ancyra (314)

Canon 21: Women who prostitute themselves, and who kill the child thus begotten, or who try to destroy them when in their wombs, are by ancient law excommunicated to the end of their lives. We, however, have softened their punishment and condemned them to the various appointed degrees of penance for ten years.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magiste....ls.html

Quote[/b] ]Questions on Abortion

Fr. Frank Pavone
Priests for Life



As an international organization dealing with the most critical moral issue of the day, we get lots of mail and lots of questions.

On this page, I will begin sharing some of those questions with you, along with my answers.

Feel free to write to me. If you email me at mail@priestsforlife.org, and say that your question is for the website.

Remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question!



God bless you!

Fr. Frank



Question 1: Someone told me the Bible is silent about abortion. Is it?

Answer: The Bible is silent about abortion in the same way it is silent about the Trinity.

In other words, the word itself is not there, but the teaching is.

First of all, Scripture is clear from beginning to end about the fact that human life is created by God, is in God's image, belongs to God, and has a destiny with God. The obligation to respect human life is illustrated in a thousand ways. Our obligations to each other are crystal clear. See our pamphlet Scripture's Teaching Against Abortion as well as our outline of Scriptural themes for more details.

But there is another consideration here.

Suppose those who criticize us by claiming the Bible is silent on abortion were right. Suppose there were nothing in it to indicate that abortion is wrong.

So what?

Am I then to consent to the killing of little children?

Many of those who make this argument do not believe in the Bible anyway. They make all sorts of judgments about what to do and not to do in life independently of what is in the Bible.

Are they then to say we cannot do the same?

I believe in the Bible. And it condemns the killing of the innocent, which abortion is.

But even if the Bible were silent about abortion, I have enough decency and good sense to see that abortion is an evil that neither I nor anyone else should tolerate.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/questions.html

These are from http://www.lifecall.org/favorite.htm

Quote[/b] ]"As you do not know what is the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child, so you do not know the works of God who makes all things." Ecclesiastes 11:5

"Before I formed thee in the womb, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee." Jer. 1:5

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him? Did not the same One fashion us before our birth?" "Though like a Father, God, has reared me from my youth, guiding me even from my mother's womb." Job 31:15, 18

"And thou shalt have joy and gladness and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord... and shall be, filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." Luke 1: 14, 15

"... and it came about that when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And Elizabeth cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed among women are you, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how has it happened that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken." Luke 1: 36 - 45
"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were written, the days that were ordained for me, when yet there was not one of them." Psalm 139: 13 - 16

"Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to disclaim responsibily by saying you didn't know aboout it. For God, who knows all hearts, knows yours, and He knows you knew! And He will reward everyone according to his deeds." Proverbs 24:11-12

"Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters.... and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters... and the land was polluted with blood." Psalms 106: 37 - 38

http://www.lifecall.org/favorite.htm

Quote[/b] ]Q: What about abortion in a rape case?
A: Do two wrongs make a right? Rape is a crime, so is abortion. One in a legal sense, the other in the spiritual sense. Should a preborn child reap the punishment for the crime against the mother?

http://www.lifecall.org/question.htm

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant.

Aboritons weren't even around at the time of Jesus.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Would everyone please stop quoting things.

Think for yourselves. You have brains. You don't need to pick someone else's to form an opinion.

Luinnar, would you please address the points I have raised.

 

[Gandhi]

I think a woman has the right to chose if she wants an baortion or not. I wouldn't want my GF to have an abortion since I'd want to tke responsobility for my actions. But she's the one who's going to carry it around for 9 months so I'd support her if she wants one.
I don't think its murder or anything like that, since its still a fetus, but it does sound sick.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It's amazing how Protestants embrace Catholic precepts when it suits them.

There is no arguing with you Luinnar. You fail to listen to other people's arguments or respond to points brought against you. See my posts above, which you STILL have not responded to.

 

[Gandhi]

Now correct me if I'm wrong but there were children at sodom, yet god didn't warn them to get out of the city before he turned the city to ash. I don't think all the children in the city were sinners, yet he didn't save their lives.

 

[Luinnar]

Here is my logic.

Now I believe God crafts each human individually.
He gives us different talents,looks, and personalites.
Weither through genetics or a more personal aproach.

Now we humans have a soul. This is what makes us different from the animals.
Ask yourself "When do we recieve our soul?"
At birth? Death? Conception?
Do we need to earn it?
To me the only one that makes sense is conception. Any other awsner would be unjust because that would mean that God would be deneying some the chance of being human.

It makes no difference weither the child is a product of rape, out of wedlock, or any other mode that in itself is wrong or evil. It is still a human. Not a evil abboration that must be destroyed!

Everyone know that murder is outlawyed by the 10 commandments. Abortion is taking the life of either a tissue that will one day grow into a child by making the body reject it, or the horrible mutilation of a fetus. Some are even a small child when they have their brain sucked out.

If abortion is taking a life than it is MURDER! And is a mortal sin. Mortal sin being defined as a 10 on the evil scale if 1 is the list offensive sin to God.

I am offended at my fellow christans for advocating aboration. How can one be a christan and be in favor of destroying human life? The burden is even heavier on the world leaders. How can I trust my life in the hands of someone who has no respect for the life of the smallest and most defenceless of us? Euithnasia and genoside is just a step away from abortion.

Now do I believe that those who had an abortion, preform the abortions themselves, or advocate abortions are forever eternally damned?

No

But that is a heavy burdrn on your sholders and the potenial for hell is there. Repentence is needed.

When you die and God judges you he will not look at weither you believed in him, or professed yourself a christan; or how many times you attend church. He will look at weither you tried to emulate his teachings and do good in this world. It is not enough to believe in God or trust in him. You must act like one.

At least we can all agree to this.

Dear Lord,
Please revieal to all who read this as well as the whole world  the trurth as seen through your eyes.
Amen

I urge anyone who is thinking having an abortion or has any questions to visit http://www.priestsforlife.org or http://www.lifecall.org before make up their mind about anything.

 

[Luinnar]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 27 2004,7:50)]It's amazing how Protestants embrace Catholic precepts when it suits them.

There is no arguing with you Luinnar.  You fail to listen to other people's arguments or respond to points brought against you.  See my posts above, which you STILL have not responded to.

I never said I was a Protestant. I am a christan who believes in the teaching of the Catholic church . I aspire to one day to become a Catholic.

And sorry a little thing called Sleep and responabilty got in the way.

 

[Raistlin]

Luinnar - Define 'soul'

I believe that you dont even have to believe in God to be 'saved.' What kind of God, one we profess as loving and forgiving, would condemn those who led a good life, but didnt believe in 'God' (per se), or was never taught of him/her?

Besides, say an aetheist dies and goes to judgement. Why would god just toss him to hell, or whatever, when he/she has the chance to gain another follower? No real greater way to prove him/herself true than actually showing him/herself to an aetheist after death.

The way ive been taught is animals do have souls, yes, but do not possess the intellect or free will of the human soul, which is the main component that defines us as human, and not animal.

 

[Dark Virtue]

EDIT

Forget it, I just erased my entire response.

What's the point? Luinnar, your constant refusal to acknowledge our past threads is just sad.

You're delusional if you believe that you're the only one that has all the answers. Granted, I don't have all the answers either, but at least I'm willing to admit when I could be wrong. You, do not.

I have given you BIBLE BASED scriptures which you dismiss and won't comment on. You come back with personal conjecture and give us NO basis for it. You would think that someone who is basing his beliefs on religion could show some scriptural reference for his beliefs, but you don't.

Tell us, why should we bother listening to your views when you won't listen to ours? Why should we comment on your posts when you fail to acknowledge ours?

What's the point?

 

[CCGR]

God wrote in the hearts of mankind basic rights and wrong. He also but in an urge to find out our creator and purpose in life. God wants us to find him. Those who choose to live life without God will spend eternity without as well. A just request being fufilled if you ask me. Unfortunately it for an eternity to sit an mull over the wrong choice they made. But God does spare innocents like children etc who do not yet know right from wrong

 

[Dark Virtue]

In all honesty and sincerity, please show me in the Bible where it says those who do not choose God will spend an ETERNITY pondering their wrong choice.

Also, please show me a Biblical reference to God sparing innocent children or those that do not know right from wrong. I think the Bible is stacked on the other side, with God taking the lives of innocent children.

Please understand, I am not being offensive, but am trying to point out the difference between what is really in the Bible and what people have chosen to delude themselves into thinking.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Luinnar, you are never taking your arguement beyond stating that abortion is evil in many different ways.  We understand this.  What I am argueing, and what you are continually failing to address, is that immoral or no, the government cannot with reason make abortion illegal.  All things considered, something you are clearly not doing, it does not compute.  I understand that you have a hard time overlooking what you consider to be one of the worst crimes concievable, but our nation does not function the way you may hope it to.  Take a reality check, and start discussing this issue on the same page I'm on.  

Frankly I am disgusted that you are so self-rightious and obtuse that you believe your way of thinking is the only 'right' way, for christians and anyone else.  How is it that you are so omniscient?  Becuase you were raised this way?  Because you were born into a Christian society?  Because you read it in a book?  Because those you surround yourself with agree?  Becuase you think history agrees?  There's a lot of psychology behind this, whether you like it or not. Your mind has been so wrapped around your own set of ideas that you apparently cannot fathom any alternatives.  That is a pretty bad way to be.  I don't know what to tell you, other than to point out that the odds of you having the 'right' opinion on everything are ridiculously slim.  Accept this fact, accept that you do not know everything, and stop trying to so zealously impose your beliefs on others.

Also, I would suggest to everyone that Bible quotations are not a good way to base an arguement.  There are thousands of verses in the Bible, allowing for people to support virtually any arguement with a couple of quotation marks.  Logically it does not mean much, regardless of the reverence of the source.  Instead of leaning on it so heavily, I recommend merely supplementing your REASONABLE arguement with a particularly good quote or two.  Shooting off one quotation after another turns logical discourse into a contest of 'who knows the most scripture.'  It's happened in virtually every discussion on this forum, and I'd like it to stop.

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]

And sorry a little thing called Sleep and responabilty

So sleep and responcibility got in the way of responding to his post, but not typing up that very large post right above?

 

[Arkanjel]

Here is my 2 cents worth. I have not taken the time to read ALL the posts in this thread, but I believe at least on my part that Im in a special position to speak on this matter. My wife just had our first child 4 weeks ago. Her pregnancy was not a normal one by any means. God has a way of getting you ready or prepared to accept and love a child that He has given to you. Children are on loan to us from God and that is really the bottom line. Im not sure that I was really all that prepared to become a parent when I found out that my wife was pregnant, but again God brought me to that point and did so through the trials of my wifes pregnancy. At 16 weeks she was in a car accident and had an airbag go off in her face. That scared the crap out of us both, yet God was sovereign and the baby was fine. At 20 weeks the doctors found a chori-angioma on my wifes placenta. This is basically an un-organized mass of blood vessels. This "thing" is a rare anomoly that can cause serious problems. To make it even more rare it increased in size. Due to this 'thing' being on the placenta, the baby's heart had to work harder because of an increased load. This in turn enlarged the baby's heart and caused it to go into an early stage of heart failure. My wife spent a week in the hospital with the hope of being able to make it to 32 weeks before they had to take the baby. We as a family and a church cried out to God through prayer and again God was faithful. At about 34 1/2 weeks the doctors found that this 'thing' had actually died off and was more or less going away. My wife made it to 36 1/2 weeks of pregnancy befoer she gave birth to a healthy baby girl. Almost a month longer than the doctors thought was possible. Anyways the point of it all is this. Through-out the whole ordeal my wife had NUMEROUS ultra-sounds to look at and monitor the baby's development.  She would have these sonograms almost twice a week at one point. Normal pregnancies usually only have 2 or 3 ultra-sounds the whole time. With that you get a limited idea of what the child looks like. My wife had several 4D ultra-sounds that give you a 3-dimensional picture of the child. To see a child with a look of pain on her face IN THE WOMB will make you melt. To see that and know you cant do anything to comfort this child is almost heartbreaking. To interact with a child in the womb is an amazing thing. Yes if you poke at or talk to a child "in-utero" they will respond. This is not merely a 'fetus' as 'pro-death' ( after all it is the opposite of pro-life) would like you to believe, it is a living being with a spirit and an ability to react to stimuli. Im sure you will try and draw the conclusion that an amoeba will react to stimuli as well, but an amoeba will not show emotion on its face. When my child was finally born, I already felt like I knew her. That is God's amazing grace. I understand that rape cases are a horrible thing, and I understand that it brings with it a lot of emotional scars. However it is not your choice to take another life, just because it brings back bad memories for you. That is outright MURDER. Whatever did that child do to you to deserve to be put to death or even worse not given a chance at life. NOTHING. As for a pregnancy being detrimental to the mother. CRAP. The miracle of modern medicine has given us the ability to take babies early as needed. Doctors are on top of the pregnancy the whole time and will not hesitate to "pull" a pregnancy early if they see it as being detrimental to either the mother or the baby. And lastly perhaps we should look at the history of abortions. Child sacrifice ( or late abortion) started a LOOOONG time ago when people would sacrifice their children to Moloch and probably other pagan dieties as well. This was done to ensure the parents would have good crops or a year of plenty or for favor from the gods. Abortion today does not fall far from it ancestor. Today we sacrifice our children to further our gain, be it monetary or otherwise. Afterall children do cost money to raise dont they. And they do bring with them a sort of social stigmata dont they? So if God has decided to give you a lifetime full of blessing and you decide its in YOUR best intrests not to experience it, then shame on you. You have no idea what you are missing out on.

In Christ,
Gabriel

 

[PapaToad]

Friends, I can not see how you can justify abortion and not as the murder of human life?

Luinnar you are correct abortion is wrong

Nothing can ever be right about it. I have heard every argument and comment, Its wrong. Does our government allow it, yes, would I want to be a woman who was brutally rape in a savage act of violence be forced to give birth to a child I might damage out of hurt rage. No, I would loved to think I am “Christian enough to show compassion but, I am told old, and have caused enough pain in this world to know better.

I will never have to make that choice. Thank God, I have 4 children, I have never suffered birth. Not a pleasant experience from the names I was called in a delivery room, or the Drunken sailor talk my ex-wife used on the doctors.

But My Mother ran a foster home for abuse and abandoned girls for 22 years. Over 500 damaged and lost souls went thru our house. For any one who had an abortion, (And a few did, not one of them DO NOT REGRET IT. Was it the right thing to do, I am sure it was justified, but it was murder of sedient being, and human life.

If you have talked some into an abortion, you have murder, if you have had an abortion , its murder. If you have justified it and help in an abortion, you have murdered. Does our country allow it, yes, do they say you are a murder. NO, but in your heart you know you are.

Sure, its easier to justify it, when you carrying bastards child, had a night of romance, did not take precautions. But you are willfully taking human life. If you are a Christian, and you advocate abortion, you are advocating the willful murder of humans. There is no grey except what your trying to justify.

Now, that I have said that, I am not carry a rapist child, but that child did nothing wrong, and if a young girl came to me and said, I do want it I would strongly suggest every alternative to her.

Do I look down on woman who had abortions no. I can not fathom what thoughts and pains they went through to come to their conclusion. But that sin is theirs and Gods to deal with, not me. But for those trash that have had 2-3 even four abortions, because its just easier. Well, lets say I pray that God changes my heart toward them.

Except in rape, it is to easy to avoid pregnancy. Abortion is wrong. But I am not in danger of losing my life, or in a situation where I am pregnant due to rape. But I always try to search for viable solutions with troubled teens and Mothers. But We live in USA, it’s the woman’s choice. And even before I was a Christian I knew it was wrong

 

[Mr.Bill]

Would someone on the other side of the issue please introduce a practical, workable solution to this dilema. I'm still waiting..

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]Friends, I can not see how you can justify abortion and not as the murder of human life?

For one, a fetus is not a human. If it were a human, it could survive seperated from it's mother.
If a fetus were seperated from it's mother, it'd die in mere seconds.

Quote[/b] ]
Nothing can ever be right about it. I have heard every argument and comment, Its wrong. Does our government allow it, yes, would I want to be a woman who was brutally rape in a savage act of violence be forced to give birth to a child I might damage out of hurt rage. No, I would loved to think I am “Christian enough to show compassion but, I am told old, and have caused enough pain in this world to know better.

You are not a women, and therefor cannot give birth to a child.
You do not know how it would feel carrying the child of a pervert. Everytime she would look at the child she'd be reminded of the pain she felt when that man raped her.
No one deserves to go through that, even if it means killing a fetus.

Quote[/b] ]
If you have talked some into an abortion, you have murder, if you have had an abortion , its murder.

You say it's murder, I say it's not. We're both Christians. Who's right? The Bible favors me, thank you.

Quote[/b] ]
Now, that I have said that, I am not carry a rapist child, but that child did nothing wrong, and if a young girl came to me and said, I do want it I would strongly suggest every alternative to her.

Any child would give up his or her own life to spair his or her mother the pain of carrying a rapist's child.

A fetus' body is not it's own body. A fetus' body belongs to the mother. Why? Because it uses food that the mother eats, it uses air that the mother breathes, and it uses blood the mother has.
If this were not the case, a fetus' body would be their own body.
But killing a fetus is no different the killing an insect.
If a fetus has rights, then insects do too.