Partial birth abortion is here to stay

[CCGR]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130217,00.html

this procedure is just plain sick.  if the mother's life was endangered it should have been dealt with long before the second trimester!

 

[Mr.Bill]

Wow, that procedure does sound pretty grusome.  On a related note, correct me if I'm wrong, Bush supports abortion to save a woman's life, yes?

 

[Vanaze]

I'm anti-abortion, period.

No first trimester, second or third for me.

gee gee life starts at conception.


Fa la la.

 

[Luinnar]

Never give up! Prayer can topple cities, save souls and stop the evils of abortion!

 

[Mr.Bill]

I don't like abortion either, but I don't think our government can in its right mind ban it.  Abortion is going to continue to occur, regardless of whether it is legal or not.  Keeping it legal ensures that the operation will be sanitary, safe, and protected against malpractice.  If abortion were to be illegalized, a black market of abortionists would spring up.  Those who couldn't afford to have the operation done would attempt to do it themselves.  And of course, the people on the low end of the socioeconomic scale would be hit the hardest.  You all most likely have a biased view on the subject, abortion being something that only happens to a different sort if people.  Pro-life activists are almost all white, whereas blacks and hispanics have the most abortions by a significant amount.  I used to be pro-life as well until I realized that while it may be unethical, the alternative is worse.  You may have an opinion on the matter based on principle, but unfortunately that's not how the world works.

 

[Luinnar]

Nothing is worse than a poor child having it's brain sucked out and than being cut up into little bits. Of course a black market will exist, but it will give people a secound thought about if what they are doing is right. I know All races and All classes of people pratice abortion. As for Pro-life activists are being almost all white, I've noticed that Most of the Pro-life people you see are white females and so are most people advocating pro-"choice".I feel that this is really a womans war, with the child killers VS. the child protectors. Of course men should help stop this evil too(if not I would be excluded).

 

[Luinnar]

Quote[/b] (Vanaze @ Aug. 26 2004,4:39)]I'm anti-abortion, period.

No first trimester, second or third for me.

gee gee life starts at conception.


Fa la la.

Exactly my view.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Luinnar @ Aug. 26 2004,7:13)]Nothing is worse than a poor child having it's brain sucked out and than being cut up into little bits. Of course a black market will exist, but it will give people a secound thought about if what they are doing is right. I know All races and All classes of people pratice abortion. As for Pro-life activists are being almost all white, I've noticed that Most of the Pro-life people you see are white females and so are most people advocating pro-"choice".I feel that this is really a womans war, with the child killers VS. the child protectors. Of course men should help stop this evil too(if not I would be excluded).

I know what your saying, and believe me, I feel that way about abortion too. I wish the world was run by morals, but it isn't. I wish there was an easy answer to this question, but there just isn't. If someone tells you that there is, they are wrong. As I have worked it out, the lesser of two evils is to retain the government's abortion policy. Yes, it is evil to kill unborn babies. But until we are ready to deal with the repucussions of the backlash that a ban of abortion would cause, we cannot rightly illegalize it. And we are not ready. As for pro-choice activists, you must take into consideration the population distribution of this country, as well as the sort of people that are politically active. I assure you, far more people of color are pro-choice. Not that this matters much for the issue; I am merely suggesting that you may not be seeing the entire picture.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Just wondering, how old are you two, Vanaze and Luinnar?

As admirable as your position may be, it's not very logical.

I am extremely against abortion as a form of birth control, but I understand that there are circumstances when it is a viable option. Are you telling me that if your mother or sister were raped you would expect her to carry the child? Not only is that nine months of physical reminder, but what happens after the child is born? Whatever choice is made, that is something that woman will have to deal with the rest of their lives. What if the baby poses a danger to the mother? What then?

This subject isn't as black and white as you may want it to be.

 

[Luinnar]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 26 2004,7:37)]Just wondering, how old are you two, Vanaze and Luinnar?

As admirable as your position may be, it's not very logical.

I am extremely against abortion as a form of birth control, but I understand that there are circumstances when it is a viable option.  Are you telling me that if your mother or sister were raped you would expect her to carry the child?  Not only is that nine months of physical reminder, but what happens after the child is born?  Whatever choice is made, that is something that woman will have to deal with the rest of their lives.  What if the baby poses a danger to the mother?  What then?

This subject isn't as black and white as you may want it to be.

I'm 20.

Sorry I feel your logic is flawed. What your forgetting is that no matter who the father is it is still the women's child. Having an abortion is taking the easy way out and won't make that experience go away. Someone does not have to keep any child they have, and there are many agencies that help women find homes for their child. The baby poseing a thret to it's mother is an big excuse for abortion. The only viable option for abortion is if either the baby dies and the mother lives or they both die. If it is either one or the other dies than the mother must make the choice. I think it to be a very admorable thing if a mother were to die so that her child might have life.

 

[Jango]

I don't like abortion, but I don't think I should be banned. A fetus is not a human being. If it were, it could survive without it's mother.
If a fetus is taken away, it will die quickly.
I think a mother should have a choice, after all you can't force someone to carry a baby for nine months she doesn't want.

Quote[/b] ]What your forgetting is that no matter who the father is it is still the women's child

So, if you were a women would you want to rase a rapist's child?
Would you want to explain to your child that the only reason he is there is that a man had sex with her at gun point? Mm.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I don't understand how you can expect a 13 year old girl to carry a child to term from someone that raped her.

This child is not a blessing, not in any way, shape or form.

Even God saw that, at times, it was appropriate to condemn the child for the sins of the father.

Now you said...

Quote[/b] ]The only viable option for abortion is if either the baby dies and the mother lives or they both die.

So now you're saying there IS a viable option for abortion? Earlier you agreed with Vanaze when he said that he was anti-abortion PERIOD. So which is it?

 

[Luinnar]

Ok this has to be said(and I could care less if I get banned)

You CANNOT be for abortion and be a Christan.

You CANNOT openly preach for abortion and get communion if you are a Catholic.

And you NEED to vote for pro-life canadates at the elections. If they cannot respect the life of an unborn child how they respect yours?

If your holy books say otherwise you need new ones.
If your preacher/priest preaches differently find another.
If your God disagrees you got the wrong one.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]The only viable option for abortion is if either the baby dies and the mother lives or they both die.

So now you're saying there IS a viable option for abortion? Earlier you agreed with Vanaze when he said that he was anti-abortion PERIOD. So which is it?

Not going to answer this one?

 

[Mr.Bill]

You are not thinking, you are drawing upon a predisposed opinion blindly.  I'm sorry, but this is just not that simple.  Abandon all old thoughts, and try starting from new.  If you come to the same conclusion, fine, but tell me how you got there.

Also, who are you to judge other peoples' faith?  Their belief systems?  Do you know everything there is to know about everything?  Every single little facet of society, every opinion and point of view, you know which ones are 'right' and which ones are 'wrong.'  Black and white man.  That's just not the nature of the universe; There's a whole lot of gray area.
 
Read my signature.

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]
You CANNOT be for abortion and be a Christan.

Oh stop forcing your opinion on us. As long as we believe in Jesus, we're saved. Doesn't matter if you support abortion or not.

Quote[/b] ]
And you NEED to vote for pro-life canadates at the elections. If they cannot respect the life of an unborn child how they respect yours?

Maybe because it's an unborn child and you're an adult? God would rather have an adult live at the cost for a fetus, I can gurantee you.

 

[Jango]

Here's BIBLICAL proof abortion is not wrong.

Quote[/b] ]
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exodus 21:22-23

If abortion were murder, the punishment would be death, as that was the punishment for murder.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Let's just see what YOUR holy book has to say on the matter

Quote[/b] ]Genesis 2:7 God made Adam's body out of the dust of the earth. Later, the "man became a living soul" only after God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." This seems to state clearly that Adam's personhood started when he took his first breath. Following this reasoning, a newborn would become human after it starts breathing; a fetus is only potentially human; an abortion would not terminate the life of a human person. The most important word in the Hebrew Scriptures that was used to describe a person was "nephesh;" it appears 755 times in the Old Testament. It is translated as "living soul" in the above passage. One scholar, H.W. Wolff, 1 believes that the word's root means "to breath." He argues that during Old Testament times, "Living creatures are in this way exactly defined in Hebrew as creatures that breathe."

Quote[/b] ]Genesis 38:24 Tamar's pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at that time. This was positive proof that she had been sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law Judah ordered that she be burned alive for her crime. If Tamar's twin fetuses had been considered to have any value whatsoever, her execution would have been delayed until after their birth.  There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action. (Judah later changed his mind when he found out that he was responsible for Tamar's pregnancy.)

Quote[/b] ]Exodus 13:1-2 "The Lord said to Moses, 'Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether [hu]man or animal.'" Throughout much of the ancient Middle East, the firstborn son in each family was ritually murdered as a sacrifice to the Gods.  However if the first son was preceded either by the birth of a girl or a miscarriage, then the ceremony is not performed, as the son was not the first offering of the womb. In later years, this practice evolved into a substitute animal sacrifice, or a cash donation to the temple, or a dedication of the child to their deity. "...the ancestors of the Israelites probably at one time actually sacrificed their first born children, as Genesis 22:1-14 implies." 2  These passages relate to infanticide, not abortion, because the infant would be killed after birth. But it shows the low regard for newborn humans during that era.

Quote[/b] ]Exodus 20:13"You shall not murder." This verse is often mistranslated "Thou shalt not kill." Murder is actually being referred to -- the killing of a human person. Since the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures and the tradition of the Jewish people regarded a human person as beginning at birth when the newborn first takes a breath, this verse would not apply to abortion.

Quote[/b] ]Exodus 21:22 If men strive [fight] an hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit [fetus] depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
One source comments that because some Bible translations (KJV, RSV) use the phrase "woman with child" that God considers a fetus to be a human child. 3 But other translations render the phrase simply as "pregnant woman" and make no direct reference to the fetus.

This verse describes a situation in which a man, who is fighting another man, accidentally hits a pregnant woman, and causes a termination of her pregnancy. The following verse, 23, explains that if the woman died, the guilty man would be executed by the state. The accidental killing of a woman under these circumstances was considered a capital offense, because she was a human person.

Verse 22 is confusing. The key Hebrew word "yatsa" literally means to "lose her offspring." 4 This has been translated in different Bible versions as: A miscarriage: This would imply that the fetus died immediately as a direct result of the accident. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that the woman does not die), the man responsible would have to pay at a fine. The amount would be set by her husband and approved by the judges. This would imply that the death of the fetus was not considered to be the death of a human person. If it were, then the man responsible would be tried for murder and executed. However, because the fetus had possible future economic worth to the father, he would have to be reimbursed for his loss.
premature birth: This implies that the fetus is born earlier than full term. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that neither the woman nor the baby dies) then the man would pay a fine. One possible interpretation of this passage would be that if the premature baby died, then the man responsible had killed a human person, and would be tried for murder. The verse is ambiguous at this point.


The New International Version of the Bible uses the phrase: "gives birth prematurely." and offers "miscarriage" as an alternate translation in a footnote. These two translations result in totally opposite interpretations: one supporting the pro-choice faction; the other supporting the pro-life movement.

Some liberal theologians reject this interpretation. 5 They point out that this passage appears to have been derived from two earlier Pagan laws, whose intent is quite clear:

Code of Hammurabi (209, 210) which reads: "If a seignior struck a[nother] seignior's daughter and has caused her to have a miscarriage [literally, caused her to drop that of her womb], he shall pay ten shekels of silver for her fetus. If that woman had died, they shall put his daughter to death."
Hittite Laws, (1.17): "If anyone causes a free woman to miscarry [literally, drives out the embryo]-if (it is) the 10th month, he shall give 10 shekels of silver, if (it is) the 5th month, he shall give 5 shekels of silver..." The phrase "drives out the embryo" appears to relate to a miscarriage rather than to a premature birth.

Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, sums the passage up with: "Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death."

Quote[/b] ]Numbers 5:17-31 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water..... This passage describes the action that a husband could take if he suspected that his wife had engaged in an adulterous relationship. He would take her to the tabernacle, where the priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.

Quote[/b] ]Numbers 31:17-18 Now, kill all the boys. And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. This occurred at end of the genocidal campaign against the Midianites. Moses, presumably under orders from God, ordered the soldiers to kill every boy and non-virgin woman. Presumably, a significant percentage of the latter would be pregnant. So, their fetus was killed along with the mother-to-be. The female virgins would be spared, because they were considered to have value. The fetuses would be destroyed, presumably because they were perceived to have had no value.

Quote[/b] ]Job 3:2-4; Job 3:11-19; Job 10:18-19: Here, Job is suffering. God instructed Satan to preserve Job's life while killing his children and destroying everything of value in Job's life, including his health. Job says that it would have been better if he had died at or before birth, so that he would never have experienced such misfortune. This passage seems to imply that a terminated pregnancy is better than bringing into the world a baby who will suffer greatly.

Quote[/b] ]Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 "...But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Here, the author talks about acts of oppression and the suffering that this brings to innocent people. The author, traditionally believed to be Solomon, appears to refer to an interrupted pregnancy being better than a live birth, if the person born would suffer great injustices and pain.

Quote[/b] ]Hosea 13:15-16 I will have no compassion...the people of Samaria...will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground; their pregnant women ripped open. Their crime was that they had changed their religious belief. God obviously exhibited profound hatred against people who worship another deity, and assigned no value to the fetuses of the pregnant women who were obviously not involved in the selection of a new religion.

Quote[/b] ]Luke 1:35: "...The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." In this passage, the angels refer to the fetus which Mary will carry as a "thing," not a male person. The gender in the original Greek is neuter. Jesus is only referred to by the title "Son of God" after he is born, presumably after he becomes a person. This is consistent with the traditional Jewish belief that a fetus becomes a full human after it has half-emerged from the mother's birth canal.

The above quotes can be referenced at www.religioustolerance.org

 

[Luinnar]

Quote[/b] (Jango @ Aug. 26 2004,8:41)]

Jango said

Quote[/b] ]I don't like abortion, but I don't think I should be banned. A fetus is not a human being. If it were, it could survive without it's mother.

It is scientifically proven that life begins at conception. Where there is life there is a soul and thus a human being.

Quote[/b] ] If a fetus is taken away, it will die quickly.

SO will people on life-support, should they be taken off?

Quote[/b] ]I think a mother should have a choice, after all you can't force someone to carry a baby for nine months she doesn't want.

Of course you can't force them. You can't force people to not steal either. Each are wrong.

What your forgetting is that no matter who the father is it is still the women's child

Quote[/b] ]So, if you were a women would you want to rase a rapist's child?

Yes

Quote[/b] ] Would you want to explain to your child that the only reason he is there is that a man had sex with her at gun point? Mm.

It is better than explaining to the child why you killed them for something that is not there fault.

Dark Virtue said

Quote[/b] ]I don't understand how you can expect a 13 year old girl to carry a child to term from someone that raped her.

This child is not a blessing, not in any way, shape or form.

Every life is a blessing.

Quote[/b] ]Even God saw that, at times, it was appropriate to condemn the child for the sins of the father.

Even God spared Adam and Eve's life.
I believe that no one can Sin for something that is not their fault. If my father was a murder do I equally bear on my soul those murders?
I think your misinterpiting the Bible.

The only viable option for abortion is if either the baby dies and the mother lives or they both die.

Quote[/b] ]So now you're saying there IS a viable option for abortion? Earlier you agreed with Vanaze when he said that he was anti-abortion PERIOD. So which is it?

I never said that.

Jesus said "Whetever you do to the littleist of them, you also do to me."

Every aborted/miscarried unborn child is in heaven, because each was given a soul at conception, and each was not given the chance to carry out calling God has given them.

 

[CCGR]

True medical needs for abortion are very rare, as with rape cases. I'm personally against any form of abortion as a method of birth control. I see no need for this partial birth abortion. This is performed on babies in the second trimester! There should be no excuse for that.