Creation vs evolution

I'm trying to think what a world without rain would look like - even for just a couple of thousand years (a geologically quite insignificant period - but fatal to all life, plant and animal).

There ARE, I believe, some ecosystems (I'm think arid deserts) where there ISN'T any precipitation and all water delivery is done by condensation during the night and evaporation during the day.

But you wouldn't have tree's, or any life bigger than a fox in an environment like that - and what kind of weather patterns a whole WORLD like that would spawn frightens me. You're talking about storms that would ravage - actually, just go read Frank Herberts DUNE for an idea, I just realised that he's already done the science for me on how a world like that would be.

Eon
 
The thing is: the world was being watered, just not by rain. Have you ever gone through a park, and they have those little misty thingies on the ceiling, or in the bushes, and they spray out a very fine mist of water? Well, I have. It's at like Sea World. I hated Sea World. But anyways, that's how I imagine it was: it is said in Genesis 2:4-7, "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, before any plany of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grouwn. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
Whew. So there was some kind of self-installed watering system that was making a watery mist over the whole world: before the plants, there was water on the ground, so it wasn't as dry as a rock when man came into being: kinda muddy.
Now as to the whole thing about God "first built a fully self-regulated system of interdependent physical laws, then selectively suspended parts of it, then selectively restarted them", said by Damar. I have a question: what manner of evolution is not something that would selectively pause certain laws of physics so that evolution for a lower life form could go on, and then start that law back up after the creature could "adapt" to its environment and then turn into another being?
Also, umm, this is God we're talking about. You know, Jesus Christ raised from the dead after three days, kinda God. I would think that's rather....out of the ordinary. Not really keeping to any particular law that physics has laid down: since when do people just get up, yawn, smack their lips, stretch and walk out of a grave with a five-hundred pound stone in front of it? Last I checked, not too often.
And again, this is God we're talking about. You know, created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, instead of over millions (now many thousands) of years. Ehh, I would take a more efficient, less mistake-making God than evolution. For one: he did it in six days. Evolution's still doing it, which just goes to show how crappy it is in design. Secondly, God didn't make any mistakes: evolution is all about improving on mistakes. Mistake 1 leads to Form 6, Mistake 3.5 leads to Form 2, Mistake 172 leads to Form 1, and such on and so forth. Huh. Can you tell me the odds...again?
And again, this is God we're talking about. You know, brought down heavenly wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah; struck down 185000 dudes in armor with a single anagent; sent ten plagues on Egyptian soil, wiped out every firstborn (firstborn, mind you, not second- or thirdborn) of those who didn't have some stupid sheep's blood smeared all over their door posts (one of the plagues); made a bush burn but at the same time not burn; had that same bush talk to a prince-turned-mountain shepherd; had a single rock take out a giant man (giant to the 5'1" Hebrews, especially); saved three dudes from a furance whose flames were so hot, they killed the dudes who tossed the three dudes in; made a man go crazy for seven years before he finally acknowledged God as God; gave Jesus this weird ability to spit into mud, put it on a guy's eyes, and make him see; also had this uncanny knack for curing this mildly annoying disease called leprosy, like for Naaman, who dipped seven times in the Jordan River (a pretty filthy one, too), and for these ten Hebrew bums hanging out away from the rest of the crowd, and for a lot of others; for bring a girl back to life after she had died; for bring back a man who had been dead for a while from the grave by merely calling him forth; for allowing Satan the power to destroy everything a man had, and for doubling everything that Satan had taken from him after that same man had passed the spiritual and physical trials; for being a pillar of fire by night to guide whining Hebrews through the desert, and as a cloud in the daytime; for making these selfsame Hebrews wonder around in the desert for forty years; for sending manna from heaven on these Hebrews; for sending quail on these Hebrews, too, when manna got too bland for their whining bellies; for sending snakes on these guys too when they wouldn't stop sinning against him; for placing his power in the image of a bronze snake on this one minor Levite, I think his name was Moses or something like that so that those bitten by those snakes that fell from the sky would live if they looked upon the snake; oh yeah, and for having this ability to forgive sins and to condemn some to hell and save others from it.
Weird. I guess not letting it rain was something too much for this God fellow.
And Dune was very convincing.
 
I do wish Goliath had worn a helmet... LOL

So what's the surprise in a little guy with a missile weapon taking out a big guy who's doing too much posturing? Of course it was traditional for champions to fight before the battle - as that cut down on the eventual slaughter. If the leaders could come to terms without the whole army fighting it was more efficient, less costly in human terms.

I've seen those misters too, Ultima. Generally they simulate a hugely moist environment, and rain.
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Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There ARE, I believe, some ecosystems (I'm think arid deserts) where there ISN'T any precipitation and all water delivery is done by condensation during the night and evaporation during the day.
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Actually I think all regions to get some form of precipitation. Even the driest get a little, but nothing too spectacular.
 
Huh. I dunno about the misters thing, but I suppose that when it started to build up, for two thousand years...I guess that it just kept storing up into a massive cloud and then it all came down.
 
yeah um yeah i just wanted to post something herew because my brother(topic starter) is wrong
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and he knows it just trying to be a little Controversal and make par with my Women should be ordained topic
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I'm not exactly sure what everyone is thinking, so I'll just rant about the model I see in my head.

Pre flood is the super continent, surrounded by water. (obviously). There is no rain, but that does not neccessarily mean no precipitation. The way the Bible describes the myst, it could easily be very heavy fog that was dense enough to "rain" down two inches, or just heavy enough fog that as it passed over plants/streams, they absorbed (enough) water. Both of these methods are pretty sketchy, however.

Post flood - flood gates open up, from both the earth and the sky. Scientifically speaking, it was probably just a big earthquake, with geysers and the like. Whether the first earthquake was caused super naturally or not, is debatable, but probably so. (I mean, there had to be SOME way for the whole tetonic (is that the right word?) plate system to get started. Not to mention God has a habit of punishing people with earthquakes) So being its an earthquake and all, the tetonic plates start forming the continents, and all that.

I think its very possible that there is more water today than there was back then, explaining why the evaporation was not held back, but just formed fog. Thare are many layers of shelves in the ocean, and no one knows for certain what layer was common for pre-flood peoples. It could be that we are now living on what was to them high mountains, although due to the seeming vast size of "our" level of terrain, that may not be so. But there are a number of possibilities branching from that....

(wow. I need to learn to use paragraphs. sorry guys.)
 
They actually have a paleontological layer they call Noachian, which was named back when people thought that Dinosaurs and the bible could co-exist.

There actually WAS a flood - at the start of the ice age all the water was frozen at the icecaps, which lowered the sea level down considerably. Where the North Sea is now, there used to be a huge grassy plain. Mammoth, wooly Rhino and other big Mammals used to graze there, and the place was also visited by Cro-Magnon humans.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, the orbit of the earth started to shift back closer to the Sun, and the temperature warmed up, melting the Ice caps (Antartica once stretched all the way down to Scotland) and freeing up lots of water. Now the North Sea is there - a pretty sizable flood. And there were, apparently a LOT of ice ages. At the same time as there were early men around - wonder if that is what caused all the flood legends?

Eon
 
Me? No - I said we didn't have all the answers, I didn't say I thought it was completely wrong.

Besides which - we have the bones of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal. We KNOW they existed.

Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]which was named back when people thought that Dinosaurs and the bible could co-exist.
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Dinosaurs and the Bible can't co-exist.  Whatever! I thought you knew that a lot of the Bible is written using symbolism and metaphor. You should recognize "beasts" as possible dinosaurs, unless you deliberately ignore this fact because you're making an attempt at consolidating the validity of some weird theory.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]At the same time as there were early men around - wonder if that is what caused all the flood legends?
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Actually, all the flood legends from the Middle East more likely come from the Tigris and Euphrates river.
 
Ehh, Eon, I thought I had pointed out a severe flaw in the whole Neanderthal thing...oh well. I like to reiterate.
Ahem. In 1908 Poland (a few years shy of a century ago), there was a Neanderthal found...IN CHAIN MAIL! Uh, I think the odds that a chain mail suit would be pushed into the ground and placed over the bones, strapped on and tied in and all that, of a Neanderthal, is extremely odd. No chances of it ever happening. BUT, we can always consider that Neanderthal, our stupidest ancestors, managed to make something out of material not perfected until the freaking Romans (steel and iron) and wear it, and actually have use for it. It's always possible. You know. And uh, the Neanderthals found in Neander Valley, in Germany, around 1857, was all stooped over, kinda like how half the population of the world is, right? ANd he also had some malformations of his bones, caused by rickets and scurvy, which we can see in the 1500s and now, even, though scurvy is uncommon, and rickets is just Vitamin D deficiency.
So, uh, our evolutionary ancestors are no different from Grampa Bob, huh? Stooped over, didn't drink his milk and eat his cheese when he was a boy, and hated oranges and lemons, right? Boy, the evidence we have to support evolution!
ANd Cro-Magnon man! He had calendars, social life, marriage, burial, and supposed to be smart. Geez, dang, that's a big change from today: he had a bigger head, or something like that, and that made him our evolutionary ancestor...no. In that case, Albert Einstein was a Cro-Magnon man, having a larger brain than any other person alive.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Feb. 28 2003,6:14)]Ehh, Eon, I thought I had pointed out a severe flaw in the whole Neanderthal thing...oh well. I like to reiterate.
Ahem. In 1908 Poland (a few years shy of a century ago), there was a Neanderthal found...IN CHAIN MAIL! Uh, I think the odds that a chain mail suit would be pushed into the ground and placed over the bones, strapped on and tied in and all that, of a Neanderthal, is extremely odd. No chances of it ever happening. BUT, we can always consider that Neanderthal, our stupidest ancestors, managed to make something out of material not perfected until the freaking Romans (steel and iron) and wear it, and actually have use for it. It's always possible. You know. And uh, the Neanderthals found in Neander Valley, in Germany, around 1857, was all stooped over, kinda like how half the population of the world is, right? ANd he also had some malformations of his bones, caused by rickets and scurvy, which we can see in the 1500s and now, even, though scurvy is uncommon, and rickets is just Vitamin D deficiency.
So, uh, our evolutionary ancestors are no different from Grampa Bob, huh? Stooped over, didn't drink his milk and eat his cheese when he was a boy, and hated oranges and lemons, right? Boy, the evidence we have to support evolution!
ANd Cro-Magnon man! He had calendars, social life, marriage, burial, and supposed to be smart. Geez, dang, that's a big change from today: he had a bigger head, or something like that, and that made him our evolutionary ancestor...no. In that case, Albert Einstein was a Cro-Magnon man, having a larger brain than any other person alive.
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You don't need to have an attidute to get your point across.
 
An attitude? I'm not angry or upset, just restating a point with some sarcasm thrown in. No intent to get anyone upset, if it's been done.
 
Not to mention the fact that, outside of this site and despite some attempt at research, I've never heard of this chainmail wearing neanderthal...

I mean - have you SEEN Neanderthal skulls? Not to mention the other physiological differences - or the fact that Neanderthal sites have been found in the Levantine.

But the real kicker is the fact that actual DNA has been recovered, and been found to differentiate by 27 points from a modern sample of DNA. If you were to gather DNA from all modern races in a test, you might expect 5 to 8 points of differentiation, so it's clear that Neanderthal are remoter ancestors than simply some guys from six hundred years ago who were undernourished.

Neandertal DNA - and other articles.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ](2) The reference is sketchy and the original research still needs to be unearthed. This is a valid criticism, and certainly the story would be worth a whole lot more if we had the supporting data.
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An interesting quotation from one of your so-called BIAISED sites. I like how they come right out and admit it off the bat. Also it's worth pointing out that the fossil in NO WAY was found wearing iron armour. It was found WITH iron armour.

In Oxfordshire there is a tomb called Wayland's Smithy, which is about 6,000 years old. During the time of the Saxon inhabitation of Britain the Saxons exhumed part of the tomb and buried some of their chiefs in it. Those chiefs may well have been buried with iron armour and weapons - does THIS mean that the original builders of Wayland's Smithy didn't exist?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Gotta go to school.
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You said it, man. Pay attention!

Eon
 
Please note, 6000 years ago, nutrition sucked. Maybe that's why we have so many stooped-over, sickly guys called Neanderthals...wowza! I thought I already made BIG point of that above.
And besides, I didn't have time to go through the sources. I had to go to school! Crap. All I did was a quick Google. I said as much.
 
Nutrition sucked - so people had a larger muscle/bone mass? Whilst the smaller cranium is ONE part of Neaderthal morphology, another part is the robustness of the musculature, as shown by the muscle anchor points.

So these undernourished people (who were eating Mammoth, by the way) had a larger muscle/bone mass than modern man.

Eon
 
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