You're not a true believer unless you can...

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If you live by faith and only faith, isn't it possible, conceivable, that you really don't understand what proof and evidence is?

I say there is no proof not to be condescending, but because there is no proof or evidence that satisfies logic and reason.

If there is, by all means, show it. By showing proof and evidence in God, you would be the first person in history to do so.
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You can't come to the conclusion that since I live by faith I just forget that theres evidence and proof out there. Proof and evidence that satifies logic or reason? Now your turn to eduacate me. Define logic and reason for me. And I wouldn't be the first person to show proof and evidence for a God. Do not make assumptions that you believe are true because you do not accept stand.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If something can be proven, then there would be evidence and proof to back it up. If there was evidence or proof, then faith is NOT NEEDED, because then it would be a TRUTH.
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I disagree. Proof or evidence does not affect Faith. Faith is Belief without evidence, but Evidence isn't belief without faith.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So what you're saying is that your belief is based on faith, but is suplemented by the existance of evidence? That is perfectly alright, but only if you are right. Faith first and evidence second is a not so great order, as faith can often taint what we see and interperet. If I have faith that the world is flat, and I look around me at the flat ground, I can use this as evidence to support my belief, despite the fact that it is incorrect. That is why I am an evidentialist, so I have both feet on the ground at all times.
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Possibly. But people supported their FAith back in the old days that the earth was flat with EVIDENCE. That means the EVIDENCE was wrong too.
 
Ya know what. Let's end this. Cause I'm getting shelled from lot's a people and I can't keep track of the posts. Let's start another forum maybe. But I'll Be back.....Ha ha ha ha ha......
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rithkil @ Oct. 16 2004,9:43)]I certainly understand why you believe what you believe. I personally do not agree with your reasoning. I have nothing against you personally, but I do not think your reasoning is accurate.

Did you read the rest of what I said about values in the Bible? Do not take things out of context or twist what I have said.
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I read it all, but the conclusion 'everything in the Bible is true,' only supported by the questionable premise of 'all the values in it are true' is just plain invalid and unsound. Inconsistent? How is it that the Bible is intrinsically consistent? I am not exactly sure what you mean by 'talk about a book before you go by what it says,' but just because 'people' may have already done that in the past doesn't mean what they decided upon was correct. Where is the logic here?

You seem to be using the word 'twist' a lot. I think you should relax, we atheists are not out to get you. It is merely in our nature to bring attention to logic holes.
 
btw guys, you are a christian. but HOWEVER you cannot "undo" your decision. you choose to LIVE LIKE a christian everyday though. just a little tip!
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btw guys, you are always christian. but HOWEVER you cannot "undo" your decision. you choose to LIVE LIKE a christian everyday though. just a little tip!
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I use twist because you do. You did not include the full statement. That twisted what point I was trying to make. You know what I find. You only go by what you think has enough EVIDENCE. Do you ever remain constant? How can you remain constant on anything.

And once again, let us move the topic.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]btw guys, you are always christian. but HOWEVER you cannot "undo" your decision. you choose to LIVE LIKE a christian everyday though. just a little tip!
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Are you talking about ending the post? Well we should because it got a little off topic.

Or are you saying I am inconsistent?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rithkil @ Oct. 16 2004,9:49)]
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You can't come to the conclusion that since I live by faith I just forget that theres evidence and proof out there. Proof and evidence that satifies logic or reason? Now your turn to eduacate me. Define logic and reason for me. And I wouldn't be the first person to show proof and evidence for a God. Do not make assumptions that you believe are true because you do not accept stand.
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Logic: a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

Reason: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense, something that supports a conclusion or explains a fact, the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways.

I am not making an ASSUMPTION about your proof and evidence, I am stating a FACT. There is no PROOF or EVIDENCE (see your definitions) that satisfy LOGIC and REASON (see above). If there is adequate proof and reason, then where is it?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I disagree. Proof or evidence does not affect Faith. Faith is Belief without evidence, but Evidence isn't belief without faith.
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Slow down and think about what you're saying. Evidence DOES affect faith. There would be no need for faith if there was evidence. Do you have faith that a ball thrown in the air will come back down? Of course not. You have evidence, proofs and truths to know that it will. Therefore, faith isn't required.

Faith exists independantly of evidence.
 
hey, dv, i DO KNOW people who have been healed... and have had dreams of future, and who can speak in tongues, and Jaeson Ma! who has changed from a drug addict, into a full on fire for jesus person! for 6 years. don't forget 2 e-mail him!
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i do not see how you can explain any of these except for, 'it was some weird human ability we are able to access when we FEEL we believe in something'. personally if i were an athiest, i would say that!
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I am not making an ASSUMPTION about your proof and evidence, I am stating a FACT.  There is no PROOF or EVIDENCE (see your definitions) that satisfy LOGIC and REASON (see above).  If there is adequate proof and reason, then where is it?
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You ARE making an assumption. You do not know that is true. You have made the assumption there is no proof or evidence that satisfies Logic or Reason.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Slow down and think about what you're saying.  Evidence DOES affect faith.  There would be no need for faith if there was evidence.  Do you have faith that a ball thrown in the air will come back down?  Of course not.  You have evidence, proofs and truths to know that it will.  Therefore, faith isn't required.  

Faith exists independantly of evidence.
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Think about what you're saying. Once you got all the facts down, Faith isn't required? You got all the evidence. You got all the facts. And still you do not have FAITH that God exists. And you keep saying you don't have Proof or Evidence or Facts. You do.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I am not making an ASSUMPTION about your proof and evidence, I am stating a FACT. There is no PROOF or EVIDENCE (see your definitions) that satisfy LOGIC and REASON (see above). If there is adequate proof and reason, then where is it?
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Believeing in a God who can speak with and control your life, who can turn water into wine and walk on water... Beliving in him is the only thing that Is logical, believing in our science is illogical as this God controls that science and can turn it all upside down at any moment.. Not to mention this science along with this universe are just temporary, God is permenant.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rithkil @ Oct. 16 2004,10:17)]
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You ARE making an assumption. You do not know that is true. You have made the assumption there is no proof or evidence that satisfies Logic or Reason.
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Well then where is the proof you keep speaking of?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Think about what you're saying. Once you got all the facts down, Faith isn't required? You got all the evidence. You got all the facts. And still you do not have FAITH that God exists. And you keep saying you don't have Proof or Evidence or Facts. You do.
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WELL WHERE IS IT? Where is the proof and evidence that satisfies logic and reason?

Why can't you understand that once you have proof and evidence, you no longer need faith? Please, EXPLAIN to me why one would need faith to believe in something that has evidence?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ByblosHex @ Oct. 17 2004,5:36)]Believeing in a God who can speak with and control your life, who can turn water into wine and walk on water... Beliving in him is the only thing that Is logical, believing in our science is illogical as this God controls that science and can turn it all upside down at any moment.. Not to mention this science along with this universe are just temporary, God is permenant.
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Sorry, but God doesn't talk to me, nor have I seen proof of any miracles.

Byblos, all you are doing is muddying the waters. You're taking God and science and swirling them into a morass of meaningless babble.
 
Why would God want to talk to you?

Im not muddying anything that makes no sense... how can I muddy waters? There is no water OR mud around here..

Science is temporary and therefor meaningless.
 
I don't have anything to explain what?

Why God should want to talk to me?

Isn't that obvious? Because God has ultimate compassion. God doesn't want any man to suffer. God wants all of us to come to Him and worship Him.

Isn't that what the Bible says?
 
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