new doom 3 review

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (joshofstl @ Oct. 04 2004,7:39)]

[qupte]If I read your posts right, you are saying that 1) the Doom series has implied references to Christianity and 2) that the Doom series has nothing to do with Christianity. [/quote]

That is correct.

Quote[/b] ]To say "the game has NOTHING to do with Christianity" is a bit of an overstatement I don't even think the developers would make.

I don't think it's an understatement at all. I have yet to read anything that proves otherwise from any interviews that I have seen. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.

Quote[/b] ]Most of the gamers who play the game are in a Judeo-Christian culture and would understand the demons and Hell of the games to be the demons and Hell of Christianity, at least as it is understood by popular culture.

That is very close to my point. The majority of gamers have a Judeo-Christian background and know very litle of other cultures, therefore they are unable to draw demonic references to any culture other than the one they are familiar with.

Quote[/b] ] I've had more than one friend refer to battling the "spawn of Satan" in reference to one of the Doom games.

I have heard more than one little child exclaim that they believe in Santa Claus, but that doesn't make Santa real now does it? Your friends have made an incorrect inference. For the demons in the game to be the spawn of Satan, well, they need to be spawned from Satan, and as I have stated, Satan is not refered to or infered to, either directly or indirectly.

Quote[/b] ]I believe that is a fairly common view among gamers who play the game.

It may be a fairly common view amongst your friends and associates, but I don't think it's a fairly common view amongst ALL gamers.

Quote[/b] ]As I've said before, that's the hook of the game for Western gamers. Gamers are familiar with Hell as elucidated in Christian history, and it makes an eminently wicked foe. Now, whether or not this use of Hell in a game is bad is another issue. I personally don't have a huge problem with the game, but some do, and I understand and respect their concerns.

I understand and respect their concerns as well. But what concerns ME is their understanding of the game is uneducated and based on assumptions and incorrect analogies. When you equate this game to some Christian form of Hell, I notice you capitalize Hell. Which hell are you referring to? Gehenna? Tartarus? Sheol?

Quote[/b] ]On the other hand, it is my belief that the more accurate observation would be that the game DOES have something to do with Christianity and its notions of demons and Hell, but only insofar as the game needs it to create a scary, profitable game.

A more accurate, objectionable observation would be that players have chosen to associate the game elements in Doom with the only thing they are familiar with, that being Judeo-Christianity, not vice versa as you assert.

Quote[/b] ] Having played the game, I don't believe the developers are trying to propogate Satanism or demonic activity, per say. If they were, playing as a demon would have been far more effective.

Per say? I don't believe the developers propogate Satanism one iota. If you've played the game then you should know there is absolutely no reference to Satan. The game setting is Mars, not earth. The only thing that ties the demons in the game to Christianity are the names they are given. Now, here's the kicker. The names of the demons are not derived from the demons themselves (as in the Bible, see Legion). The names are merely REPRESENTATIVE for these demons that were given to them by the workers in the lab. If you saw horrible alien beings that rose from fiery pits and thew fireballs at you, wouldn't you refer to them as "demons"? Of course you would, because your background with Judeo-Christianity would lead you to make that assumption. In other words, the names of the demons are descriptive labels because they didn't know what else to call them. That does NOT mean they are actual demons from Christian mythology.

 

[Gandhi]

Well written I agree with u. Teach me how to make my posts come out like that.

 

[Dark Virtue]

LOL, it only works when you're passionate about a subject, and all these Satan=Demons=Doom 3 threads really tick me off

 

[joshofstl]

Quote[/b] ] I don't think it's an understatement at all.  I have yet to read anything that proves otherwise from any interviews that I have seen.  If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.

To be fair, I don't... the developers are (perhaps purposefully) vague when it comes to elaborating on Doom's storyline.  This means one of two things.  Either a) the game uses an intentionally complex mythology and storyline that is meant to be elusive to Western gamers or b) the game uses a premise that is so simple that it is self-evident (i.e. Satan sends hordes of demons to our plane of existance to destroy everything, and your job is to go to Hell and stop them).  I don't see Doom as a deep game, so I tend to subscribe to the latter view.  It doesn't seem like an unreasonable position, given that id is a U.S.-based developer marketing for a U.S.-based audience.

Now, I don't subscribe to this belief because I have an axe to grind with Doom.  (I actually like the game, as do many of my friends.)  I subscribe to it because it seems to me to be the most logical, given the apparent simplicity of the game's plot.  I would be definitely curious to see what one of the game's makers had to say about this topic.  If you find an interview that addresses this, please pass it on.

Quote[/b] ] It may be a fairly common view amongst your friends and associates, but I don't think it's a fairly common view amongst ALL gamers.

All gamers?  No.  Most gamers?  I believe so, yes, but there aren't exactly any scientific polls to settle the matter either way.  

 Until I read your comments, I didn't believe the setting was a contested issue - gamers I know have always just sort of assumed that Doom was a simple shooter with a simple premise.  I have also seen non-Christian gamers on the Net make references to Satan at different points, usually in passing.  I have said before that I believed that was why Western gamers liked the game so much, because Satan is the sort of epitome of evil and gamers love to battle evil.

Quote[/b] ] When you equate this game to some Christian form of Hell, I notice you capitalize Hell. Which hell are you referring to?  Gehenna?  Tartarus?  Sheol?  

Actually... I got it from an id press release at GameSpot.  The press release uses that capitalization in both the title and the body of the release.  I suppose if you wanted to know which Hell they meant, you could ask them.  

You can find the release here.

Quote[/b] ] A more accurate, objectionable observation would be that players have chosen to associate the game elements in Doom with the only thing they are familiar with, that being Judeo-Christianity, not vice versa as you assert.... your background with Judeo-Christianity would lead you to make that assumption.  In other words, the names of the demons are descriptive labels because they didn't know what else to call them.  That does NOT mean they are actual demons from Christian mythology.

As I understand you - and please correct me if I am wrong - you are saying one of two things.  One, you believe the developers used an alternate mythology in developing Doom and that Western gamers are re-interpreting that mythology through their own "Christian lens" in playing the game, but that Hell and demons were not intended by the developers to directly refer to the Hell and demons of Christianity, but were intended to refer to the Hell and demons of an alternative mythology (i.e. Baldur's Gate).  

Or two, you believe the game is a science-fiction game and that the "demons" are so-called in the game because the characters in the game think they look like mythological demons (but they are really aliens or some other phenomena, like in John Carpenter's "Ghosts of Mars," for example).

If the answer is one, I've already sort of addressed that above.  It's certainly possible, but I don't think the developers of the game intended it to be that deep.  If you think the game is that deep, I'd genuinely like to see evidence to that effect.  

If the answer is two, that is indeed possible (and more logical than one), although the explicit use of "Hell" in the press releases seems to suggest something a little more paranormal. If you see any evidence that suggests that this is the case, again, I'd genuinely like to see it.

 

[joshofstl]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Oct. 04 2004,8:24)]LOL, it only works when you're passionate about a subject, and all these Satan=Demons=Doom 3 threads really tick me off

This isn't a personal issue for me, just so you know. Like I said in my post, if there is an id press release or interview out there that elucidates what's going on in the developer's minds and it differs from what I think, that's cool.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]To be fair, I don't... the developers are (perhaps purposefully) vague when it comes to elaborating on Doom's storyline. This means one of two things. Either a) the game uses an intentionally complex mythology and storyline that is meant to be elusive to Western gamers or b) the game uses a premise that is so simple that it is self-evident (i.e. Satan sends hordes of demons to our plane of existance to destroy everything, and your job is to go to Hell and stop them). I don't see Doom as a deep game, so I tend to subscribe to the latter view. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable position, given that id is a U.S.-based developer marketing for a U.S.-based audience.

I don't believe either of your suggestions is correct. Just bear with me a second. You're making it more complex than it is. The game revolves around an ancient Martian civilization, not Hell. As I have stated before, the use of demonic adjectives come from within the storyline. The references are allusion, they are inferences drawn from the dogma of the scientists. There is nothing in the game to draw references to Satan or Christianity.

Quote[/b] ]Now, I don't subscribe to this belief because I have an axe to grind with Doom. (I actually like the game, as do many of my friends.) I subscribe to it because it seems to me to be the most logical, given the apparent simplicity of the game's plot. I would be definitely curious to see what one of the game's makers had to say about this topic. If you find an interview that addresses this, please pass it on.

As I have shown above, there is another, more logical theory.

I would love to see an interview of this nature as well. Our best bet would probably be the book, "Masters of Doom" which is a "biopic" of id software.

Quote[/b] ]All gamers? No. Most gamers? I believe so, yes, but there aren't exactly any scientific polls to settle the matter either way. Until I read your comments, I didn't believe the setting was a contested issue - gamers I know have always just sort of assumed that Doom was a simple shooter with a simple premise. I have also seen non-Christian gamers on the Net make references to Satan at different points, usually in passing. I have said before that I believed that was why Western gamers liked the game so much, because Satan is the sort of epitome of evil and gamers love to battle evil.

I understand that, but those references to Satan are misplaced for reasons I have stated. There's no reference in the game about Satan, so why bring Satan and religion into this?

Quote[/b] ]Actually... I got it from an id press release at GameSpot. The press release uses that capitalization in both the title and the body of the release. I suppose if you wanted to know which Hell they meant, you could ask them.

The press release is inaccurate in its capitalization. Go to www.doom3.com (which is the OFFICIAL site) and click on About the Game. You will notice that hell is NOT capitalized. This would be consistent with my assertations. The term is an allusion. The definition here is "a place or state of misery, torment, or wickedness, a place or state of turmoil or destruction".

Quote[/b] ]As I understand you - and please correct me if I am wrong - you are saying one of two things. One, you believe the developers used an alternate mythology in developing Doom and that Western gamers are re-interpreting that mythology through their own "Christian lens" in playing the game, but that Hell and demons were not intended by the developers to directly refer to the Hell and demons of Christianity, but were intended to refer to the Hell and demons of an alternative mythology (i.e. Baldur's Gate).

Close, I've spelled it out above. If that still doesn't clarify, let me know.

Quote[/b] ]Or two, you believe the game is a science-fiction game and that the "demons" are so-called in the game because the characters in the game think they look like mythological demons (but they are really aliens or some other phenomena, like in John Carpenter's "Ghosts of Mars," for example).

Bingo!

Quote[/b] ]If the answer is one, I've already sort of addressed that above. It's certainly possible, but I don't think the developers of the game intended it to be that deep. If you think the game is that deep, I'd genuinely like to see evidence to that effect.

As you've said before, id isn't known for deep games

Quote[/b] ]If the answer is two, that is indeed possible, although the explicit use of "Hell" in the press releases seems to suggest something a little more basic. Again, I'd genuinely like to see evidence to that effect.

As I have shown, the press release most probably did not come from id software, otherwise they would not have capitalized it, as evidenced on their official web site.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (joshofstl @ Oct. 05 2004,5:00)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Oct. 04 2004,8:24)]LOL, it only works when you're passionate about a subject, and all these Satan=Demons=Doom 3 threads really tick me off

This isn't a personal issue for me, just so you know.  Like I said in my post, if there is an id press release or interview out there that elucidates what's going on in the developer's minds and it differs from what I think, that's cool.

No no, I didn't think that.

It's a personal issue for ME

It's just another inaccurate assumption gone horribly wrong.

 

[joshofstl]

Quote[/b] ] The game revolves around an ancient Martian civilization, not Hell.  As I have stated before, the use of demonic adjectives come from within the storyline.  The references are allusion, they are inferences drawn from the dogma of the scientists.  There is nothing in the game to draw references to Satan or Christianity.

I've played through the original Doom, and the first part - but not all - of Doom 3.  Is there anything during the course of Doom 3 that suggests the creatures in the game are aliens?  Spoilers welcome, of course.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Well they ARE on Mars, the ancient civilization is on Mars, and I'm assuming (since we have no actual evidence) that "hell" is on Mars as well.

 

[joshofstl]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Oct. 06 2004,4:55)]Well they ARE on Mars, the ancient civilization is on Mars, and I'm assuming (since we have no actual evidence) that "hell" is on Mars as well.

Is there an in-game reference, either through the protagonist's e-mails, or on the datapads, that the enemies are part of a lost Martian civilization? Or perhaps some suggestion that the scientists on the station were trying to tap some sort of ancient civilization?

 

[Dark Virtue]

The general occupants of the base have no clue what these creatures are.

As you progress through the levels you find a research area with various creatures that have been under observation and there is information on them.

I can't honestly tell you what that information says as it's been a while since I finished the game.

If you're trying to make a point, let me know. Don't make me play through the game again

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ok, I went to gamefaqs hoping they'd have the pda/email info and they do.

The researchers refer to the creatures as specimens.

Here are some quotes that may help...

Quote[/b] ]We escorted #8 to the medical lab after further instances of
| self-mutilation. I have cleared him for final research and disposal, he is
| no longer useful as a data subject.

Quote[/b] ]Ian explains about the teleportation. At first it was all good, but
| things got out of control. Yet, Betruger wanted to continue and
| capture some creatures from the strange new area. Everyone who
| returned from teleportations went crazy. Betruger went through the
| portal himself. He changed when he came back and took the Soul Cube.
| And then "living... hell... got in the base". He asks forgiveness
| to God and that's it...(note this was written by the faq author)

Creature Descriptions (from email):

Quote[/b] ]From: Research Archive
| Subject: Specimen 197 -Imp
| Date: 11-15-2145
| Body:
|
| Specimen 197 -Imp
|
| This humanoid's long and muscular limbs make it extremely agile as a biped
| or quadruped. Its long and sharp claws allow for climbing steep surfaces. A
| configuration of 10 eyes provides this creature with a wise field of vision
| and the ability to see with clarity in low-light environments.

Quote[/b] ]From: Research Archive
| Subject: Specimen 42 -Living Dead (partial)
| Date: 11-15-2145
| Body:
|
| Specimen 42 -Living Dead (partial)
|
| Able to function without recognizance brain activity, this creature has
| little regerd for self-reservation. Though slow moving, its behaviour is
| aggressive and tenacious.

Quote[/b] ]From: Research Archive
| Subject: Specimen 31 - Hellknight (partial)
| Date: 11-15-2145
| Body:
|
| Specimen 31 - Hellknight (partial)
|
| The cranial mass of this bipedal specimen indicates that is one of the
| largest creatures inhabiting the site. Overpowering its prey with sheer
| might, the Hellknight is one of the most ferocious predators known to our
| researchers. Like the imp, this creature is able to defend itself at
| long-range with thrown plasma projectiles.

Quote[/b] ] From: Research Archive
| Subject: Specimen 27 - Imp (partial)
| Date: 11-15-2145
| Body:
|
| Specimen 27 - Imp (partial)
|
| -Left forearm amputated for biological study.
| Researchers are currently studying how this creature is able to manifest and
| throw an explosive plasma projectile from its hands.

Quote[/b] ]From: Research Archive
| Subject: Specimen 218 - Revenant
| Date: 11-15-2145
| Body:
|
| Specimen 218 - Revenant
|
| This creature's endoskeleton is visible through a translucent non-solid
| skin. Despite the absense of any visibly muscles, this creature is able to
| strike at close-range targets with enormous strength. Two shoulder-mounted
| cannons controlled by its nervous system allow this creature to fire guided
| rocket-propelled missiles.

Soul Cube Email

Quote[/b] ]From: Ian McCormick
| Subject: It is a weapon!
| Date: 11-14-2145
| Body:
|
| Larry,
| You were correct, the Soul Cube is a weapon! I've translated the glyphs and
| now I understand how it works!
|
| The Soul Cube must be charged before it can be used. The souls within it
| must sense at least five deaths before the spiritual potentiality matrix
| reaches positron abstrictions. Based on our interpretation of the glyphs, the
| Cube has a way of acknowledging its readiness for auction, but it's unclear
| how this happens. More importantly, we still don't know what will happen
| when it's released.
|
| This has gone way beyond the purview of Mars station or even the UAC. We
| can't trust Betruger, he's gone mad! I'm preparing a report to send to the
| highest authorities on Earth.
|
| Good luck and God help us.
| Ian

Expedition Email

Quote[/b] ]From: Heather Elaine
| Subject: Expedition Expectations
| Date: 08-06-2145
| Body:
|
| Simon,
| As you know, you have been assigned to Expedition 14A-2. There are several
| goals we hope your team will be able to meet while on expedition. Since you
| are familiar with the discovered tablets, we would like you to find
| cooperative evidence on the other side of the Main Portal - similar writings
| of any kind should be photographed and collected.
|
| Primarily, we are looking to capture several more bio-specimens. Having
| already collected many of the smaller 'Imp' creature, we would like to bring
| back one of the larger ones, described by others as a 'Hell-Knight'.
| Previous expeditions have reported seeing them at the Main Portal
| destination, where you will be arriving. You will have several weapons with
| you, but we ask that you attempt to use non-lethal force, we would really
| like to have a live specimen if possible.
|
| Finally, travelling through the portal has caused varied reactions. For our
| records we would like you to keep an audio log of everything you experience
| for us to later analyse.
|
| I hope you have a safe trip.
| Heather

The experiments are referred to as extra-dimensional.

Quote[/b] ]We must be able to control Dr. Betruger. His extra-dimensional research is a
| potential risk to the teleportation experimentation, which we can not
| afford.

That's about it.

I'm sorry, but there's a ton of info and I went through it quickly.

There's no detailed info for the video disks or audio and I'm sure there's useful information on those.

I hope that's enough.

Let me know where you are going with all this.

EDIT: Crap I forgot about this, it's posted in one of the lower levels...

Quote[/b] ]| From:Research Archive
| Subject: Valuable sacrificial pointers
| Date: 11-16-2145
|
| Our time is here! Soon the humans will suffer eternal torment as spoken of
| in the prophecy. We will feast upon thier souls!
|
| While opening sacrificial portals, it is important to remember:
|
| - Virgin blood is best
| - Goat blood must be no older than 3 days
| - Entrails must be removed and apportioned either before death or no later
| than 30 min
| - Candles must be sorted by tallest in back to shortest in front - never the
| other way around!
|
| Most important - pentagrams must be drawn from the center to the outside and
| left to right.

Before you get too excited, this is an Easter Egg and is tongue in cheek. It's not pertinent to the game or storyline in any way.

 

[joshofstl]

If there is any point - and the question itself wasn't intended to be rhetorical - I suppose it would be that the games never seem to come clean with the exact origins of the foes in them.  After looking through a few walkthroughs, and talking to a few people, it is clear that the games are anything but clear.  The Doom series games do not explicitly say they are dealing with Satan.  On the other hand, the games don't appear to preclude that possibility, either.  Same goes for the idea of the characters being aliens.  Or the idea of an alternate mythology, like the smorgasbourg theology that is Diablo.  Maybe that is the point... keeping a little mystery about your enemy makes them seem a lot creepier than if you actually know everything about them.  

One of the FAQs did mention some novelizations made of the game, novelizations which are sanctioned by id Software.  There are three: "Knee-Deep in the Dead," "Hell on Earth," and "Infernal Sky."  Whether or not you want to regard them as "canon" (if Doom is actually deep enough to deserve such a term) is a matter of debate.  As in the game, the novels don't offer an omipotent voice to say "these are demons" or "these are ancient aliens."  Instead, the characters refer to them as demons and it is up to the reader to decide whether they are the demons of the Judeo-Christian tradition, the demons of another worldview, or something extraterrestrial that is only described as looking like demons, as you suggested.  The biopic you mentioned, "Masters of Doom," would probably better settle the issue of original intent.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Maybe now would be a good time to step back a little and look at the storyline.

This ancient civilization that is being researched was wiped out by the same attacking horde that is destroying the research station.

One member of that civ was able to turn the tide and beat the horde with the aid of the Soul Cube. Nowhere does it mention or imply some sort of "holy war". The Soul Cube is described as an ancient weapon, one of great power, but never is it described as a holy artifact. Were this weapon designed to kill demons I would think it would be described that way.

I really don't know what more to say. There have been three Doom games and not one of them mentions Satan in any way, shape or form. That in itself is a fact. Anything else is a supposition.

Those novels by the way make up the three episodes of the original doom. Each episode was comprised of nine levels.

 

[joshofstl]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Oct. 08 2004,4:11)]I really don't know what more to say.  There have been three Doom games and not one of them mentions Satan in any way, shape or form.  That in itself is a fact.  Anything else is a supposition.  

Likewise, the developers have tossed out religiously-charged words like "hell" (or "Hell," depending on where you read it) and "demons," rather than more scientific jargon. That in itself is also fact.

And you're right... there isn't much more to say.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Can we at least agree that Satan isn't mentioned anywhere in the game and that people that refer to Satan and Satanism in Doom 3 are incorrect and misguided?

 

[joshofstl]

Quote[/b] ]Can we at least agree that Satan isn't mentioned anywhere in the game

No disputes there.

Quote[/b] ]and that people that refer to Satan and Satanism in Doom 3 are incorrect and misguided

To me, it depends on their rationale, but probably.