Havamal
"Help me..." NiN
- Thread starter Ultima Avatar
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TastyWheat
New Member
Good point.[b said:
ya know i cant meet u half way if i dont know what the havamal is...
Ultima Avatar
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I'm certain you can use the Google searchbar Atown to find out his Norse beliefs quite easily.
Well thanks guys. So far I've gotten a big load of nothing from what has been said.
But then again, the questions weighing my mind are unanswerables, I think I've been able to deduce since I discussed it with some girls and guys on my debate team when we went to the McAllen tourney.
I mean, so far...circles. The only ones that haven't argued in a circle has been Eon, and Kidan. I have this big question that I posed to this Presbyterian reverend's boy-o: what the freak are you doing saying the Bible is 100% valid because the Bible says so? That is one giant circle that has kept y'all in the dark. The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. That's worse than evolutionists supporting rock dating methods...(which are terrible in and of themselves)
So here's my problem: Song of Solomons is some lovers' ballads to each other. Yes I have read it before, and I don't think it's to God because it's highly sexual. I'm not certain but to take a sexual stance with God might risk some fire from above, don't ye know? So I wonder why keep that in the Bible as the great Word of God. And Psalms. Songs to God, songs of God's power. Some wisdom in them and prophecies regarding future events, but still...songs?
AND ORAL TRADITION...ORAL tradition. Please tell me WHAT could possibly stop talking and talking about the creation of the world or such stories from degrading from the truth they may have been at one point in time when some brainiac learns cuneiform and decides to write the words of the elders DOWN?
I mean, geez. So much possibility for corruption of what happened to enter. And how long was it before the Jews decided to write down what Moses said? Or the prophets, those prophets that they butcherd like cows?
And what makes Paul's letters infallible? Or Revelation? I mean, the guy just got roasted alive and stuck on a rock. It's really easy to say: "You know, this pain is so excruciating I think those big lights in my head are really visions from God, so here's some stuff God told me."
I believe Revelation is true, I believe the Bible is true, I believe God has not lied to me. BUT I cannot prove it to myself. So many say that Christianity is this easy, 1-2-3 step religion to God's own heart, but it is so complex when the thinking man thinks about it. I guess it encourages blissful ignorance, which ain't my bag.
Well thanks guys. So far I've gotten a big load of nothing from what has been said.
But then again, the questions weighing my mind are unanswerables, I think I've been able to deduce since I discussed it with some girls and guys on my debate team when we went to the McAllen tourney.
I mean, so far...circles. The only ones that haven't argued in a circle has been Eon, and Kidan. I have this big question that I posed to this Presbyterian reverend's boy-o: what the freak are you doing saying the Bible is 100% valid because the Bible says so? That is one giant circle that has kept y'all in the dark. The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. That's worse than evolutionists supporting rock dating methods...(which are terrible in and of themselves)
So here's my problem: Song of Solomons is some lovers' ballads to each other. Yes I have read it before, and I don't think it's to God because it's highly sexual. I'm not certain but to take a sexual stance with God might risk some fire from above, don't ye know? So I wonder why keep that in the Bible as the great Word of God. And Psalms. Songs to God, songs of God's power. Some wisdom in them and prophecies regarding future events, but still...songs?
AND ORAL TRADITION...ORAL tradition. Please tell me WHAT could possibly stop talking and talking about the creation of the world or such stories from degrading from the truth they may have been at one point in time when some brainiac learns cuneiform and decides to write the words of the elders DOWN?
I mean, geez. So much possibility for corruption of what happened to enter. And how long was it before the Jews decided to write down what Moses said? Or the prophets, those prophets that they butcherd like cows?
And what makes Paul's letters infallible? Or Revelation? I mean, the guy just got roasted alive and stuck on a rock. It's really easy to say: "You know, this pain is so excruciating I think those big lights in my head are really visions from God, so here's some stuff God told me."
I believe Revelation is true, I believe the Bible is true, I believe God has not lied to me. BUT I cannot prove it to myself. So many say that Christianity is this easy, 1-2-3 step religion to God's own heart, but it is so complex when the thinking man thinks about it. I guess it encourages blissful ignorance, which ain't my bag.
please note...it's past 11pm, and I should be in bed rather than trying to attempt coherent thought. preliminary disclaimer, "anyone I offend in this thread, I apologize beforehand."
That said...Ultima, I had to respond to your very honest question.
I've been struggling with the same questions recently, and honestly if someone reading this thread ISN'T struggling with it or hasn't? excellent...you're a very lucky person.
How do we reconcile an all-knowing, all-powerful God with the reality of evil?
My only answer is that perhaps we don't understand the true and complete nature of good. I mean, I know in years past...people used to fall on their faces in terror just at the sight of angels. That wasn't even the Almighty. Yeah, I know...everyone says that "fear" should be more accurately translated "awed respect." To that I say "whatever." Those people were scared outta their pants, and were pretty doggone smart to be so. We paint all these pretty little pictures about the sweet love of Christ and the beautiful nature of angels.
Here's a thought. Maybe the love of God is something that should terrify us, not because it's bad, but because it's so good that it'll consume us. Maybe angels are so holy that they are monstrous in our sight. Maybe we have such a limited view of even our own existence that we CAN'T understand God.
Oh wait. We can't. There are times I just wanna scream "SHUT UP." All us fundamental, evangelical, whatever the heck we are Christians who go on and on and on and on and have such pious answers for everything. We've turned the Bible into a self help book (good job with that) and have motivational meetings every Sunday.
Maybe we should just fall on our faces before a God that is so terrifying and just, for once, admit that we don't know ONE thing that he hasn't told us straight up (and most of that, we don't get either).
*grumbles. Ultima. I dunno. I dunno why God even gave Lucifer free will. I guess that has something to do with love. Even though YHVH (that's God, btw) KNEW what was going to happen, I guess he just thought it was worth it. It's kinda cool in a way, even though it's really painful.
Predestination...eh. I dunno. God already knows what's gonna happen, but that doesn't mean it's his fault when it does, even if he has the power to stop it.
*this is the addition that I edited in*
Sorry, I didn't see where you wrote about the Song of Solomon. Actually, I think a more appropriate and correct title is "Song of Songs." There are sexual themes thoughout it, that's true. But you need to keep in mind that it's not necessarily talking about sex. It's a discourse between lovers, yes, and describes their very intimate relationship. I know to guys it prolly seems icky (especially younger guys..cuz it's abit harder to understand til you've had to put up with wives and junk), but WE are the bride of Christ. Yeah, I know it's complicated, and I'm not gonna get into it a ton, but remember where Paul told husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church?
Anyway...I know it's hard to understand, and obviously I don't understand much more than anyone (okay, none more), but if you have the humility and the "ears to hear" you'll find the common theme from Genesis to Revelation. God created us and loved us and wants us to choose to love him. He can force us...but in our culture...that's pretty akin to rape. Nobody calls that love.
That said...Ultima, I had to respond to your very honest question.
I've been struggling with the same questions recently, and honestly if someone reading this thread ISN'T struggling with it or hasn't? excellent...you're a very lucky person.
How do we reconcile an all-knowing, all-powerful God with the reality of evil?
My only answer is that perhaps we don't understand the true and complete nature of good. I mean, I know in years past...people used to fall on their faces in terror just at the sight of angels. That wasn't even the Almighty. Yeah, I know...everyone says that "fear" should be more accurately translated "awed respect." To that I say "whatever." Those people were scared outta their pants, and were pretty doggone smart to be so. We paint all these pretty little pictures about the sweet love of Christ and the beautiful nature of angels.
Here's a thought. Maybe the love of God is something that should terrify us, not because it's bad, but because it's so good that it'll consume us. Maybe angels are so holy that they are monstrous in our sight. Maybe we have such a limited view of even our own existence that we CAN'T understand God.
Oh wait. We can't. There are times I just wanna scream "SHUT UP." All us fundamental, evangelical, whatever the heck we are Christians who go on and on and on and on and have such pious answers for everything. We've turned the Bible into a self help book (good job with that) and have motivational meetings every Sunday.
Maybe we should just fall on our faces before a God that is so terrifying and just, for once, admit that we don't know ONE thing that he hasn't told us straight up (and most of that, we don't get either).
*grumbles. Ultima. I dunno. I dunno why God even gave Lucifer free will. I guess that has something to do with love. Even though YHVH (that's God, btw) KNEW what was going to happen, I guess he just thought it was worth it. It's kinda cool in a way, even though it's really painful.
Predestination...eh. I dunno. God already knows what's gonna happen, but that doesn't mean it's his fault when it does, even if he has the power to stop it.
*this is the addition that I edited in*
Sorry, I didn't see where you wrote about the Song of Solomon. Actually, I think a more appropriate and correct title is "Song of Songs." There are sexual themes thoughout it, that's true. But you need to keep in mind that it's not necessarily talking about sex. It's a discourse between lovers, yes, and describes their very intimate relationship. I know to guys it prolly seems icky (especially younger guys..cuz it's abit harder to understand til you've had to put up with wives and junk), but WE are the bride of Christ. Yeah, I know it's complicated, and I'm not gonna get into it a ton, but remember where Paul told husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church?
Anyway...I know it's hard to understand, and obviously I don't understand much more than anyone (okay, none more), but if you have the humility and the "ears to hear" you'll find the common theme from Genesis to Revelation. God created us and loved us and wants us to choose to love him. He can force us...but in our culture...that's pretty akin to rape. Nobody calls that love.
Master~Plan
New Member
-but it matches strongbads eyes so well...[b said:
Grand Master
New Member
The idea that is presented in Christianity and most religions is that of a bribe. God says "you be good, you follow my rules, and I will reward you with the big prize at the end; and those that don't follow along can go to hell." Everyone who believes this load is looking for the big score at the end of it all, and they want to avoid "the bad place." If "god" wasn't offering this to you, you would think, "get lost god, you have nothing to offer me." I mean, most of you would say that you are inherently evil, so it's not like you would be after a relationship with a higher being for any other reason than for some payoff. This makes your motives purely selfish. At any rate, it sounds absurd that some all powerful god would require some sort of adulation and "love" from his little minions. That would seem quite pathetic.
so you should enlighten us about what YOUR faith states concerning free will and such. you obviously have some kind of belief/opinion based on the fact that you do follow something...
after all, what is the purpose of following God/gods if they're not bigger than you and guide you?
after all, what is the purpose of following God/gods if they're not bigger than you and guide you?
Master~Plan
New Member
well its a good thing you have it all figured out grand master because I was afraid I was going to have to explain it all to you...
1. The Bible is 100% valid because GOD says so. That's what the Bible is, His Word. God's Word is true because He said it!! It's quite simple.[b said:
2. Stormy hit the nail on the head about Song of Songs.
3. If you've ever taken time to do your devotions, you might've gotten to a point where you wanted to tell God something but didn't know quite how to word it. That's where the Psalms come in handy. They're songs, mostly songs of prayer straight to God. They belong in the Bible because they serve a purpose to Him.
4. 90% of the Bible was written either as the events described were happening or only a few years after. Moses wrote most of the words of the Pentateuch himself (so scholars agree), and words that weren't penned directly by him were written by people close to him (in time and proximity). Oral tradition doesn't degrade in just a few years. Examine ancient cultures and you'll see that.
5. We hold Paul's letters to be truth because of the nature of his inspiration from the Lord, the fact that everything he says lines up with the rest of Scripture, and the fact that he bluntly tells us when what he says is from the Lord or coming from personal opinion. I don't know if you've ever known someone who was the worst person on earth, behaved the worst and had the worst habits, and then got saved, and turned 180 degrees in the other way, but I have and know it can happen and believe this is what happened to Paul.
6. When John was exiled to Patmos, he wasn't in a horrible environment. Based on what we know about the Roman culture and their habits, he was most likely in a very nice and civil environment. How else would he be able to send letters to the different churches? He was only forced to live on Patmos, not become a slave and enter prison. I'm fairly confident that he was in his right mind when he received the Revelation from Jesus.
As for your other questions and ponderings, I believe there comes a point in time where you have to stop trying to figure out God and instead accept Him as who He is...waaaay bigger and much more incomprehensible than what you are attributing him. He's older, has been around longer and, oh yea, He made you.
GG God.
TastyWheat
New Member
I dunno...I've been reading up on the documentary hypothesis a bit...[b said:
Actually...I'm more of the persuasion that the Torah contains the words of Moses; in other words, its Mosaic, but wasn't written by Moses himself. I've examined the repercussions of believing this, and I don't think it impacts in any way the truth of Scripture, and the poignancy of the Torah.
1. If he said it then why is it written down in a bloody book, edited and revised by humans for hundreds of years? Talk about a cruddy messenger.[b said:
2. See, again we get into exactly the point that Ultima was trying to make. Why do you believe God is infalliable? Because it says so in the Bible. Why do you believe the Bible? Because it's the word of God - who's infalliable! Don't you SEE the problem here?
Unless, of course, you don't care that it can't be proven. In which case all you have to do to silence the critics is say - "No, I don't know. Personally I don't believe it CAN be proven, it's something you either have faith in or you don't. I do." - in which case people can do no more than repeat your own words back at you, which is an ineffective form of argument at the best of times!
But no, you guys feel the need to be SEEN to be right. It's not enough to be right and know it in your heart - you have to say stupid and improbable things like - "It's a fact". It isn't a fact.
Eon if i remember correctly the Bible is exactly the same words found in the dead sea scrolls provin that it has not been revised. there was some other proof that i cant remmember thogh. 1 more thing archeologists examined a peice of wood a few years ago from turkey and found it to have all kinds of salt water residue and the wood is believed to be from NOAHS ARK which is assumed to be somewher in Turkeys mountains but turkey wont let anyone explore the areas for the ark
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Through translations it has.[b said:
Where did he say the whole Bible is true? Where did he say the Bible is his word? Paul did say that all scripture is god breathed but he was talking about the tanach.[b said:
TastyWheat
New Member
Please don't equate all of the DSS with Scripture...the DSS contain a lot more than Scripture (including details of the Essene people at Qumran). We've basically found them useful for helping to reinforce what we've found in other Scripture fragments, to give us new pieces of Scripture that do not contradict other portions of Scripture, and to give us a window looking on New Testament-era life.
I can give you a great bibliography on the DSS if you want. If you ever come here I recommend taking the course.
I can give you a great bibliography on the DSS if you want. If you ever come here I recommend taking the course.
Ultima Avatar
New Member
Thank you very much Storm for your post.
Mahfrot, the giant circle of what you just said blares out like a claxon: The Bible is True because God says so, and the Bible is God's Word. So God says God is true. Who else says God is true aside from God?
I mean, there's my main problem. It's all descended to a simple matter of faith, but when that simple patter is pondered upon, then death happens to the brain cells by the gazillion.
And Moses didn't write it doooown! It was written down when the oral tradition was decided as not a good thing to work it to preserve history. It wasn't "a few years", it was a coupla centuries or more. Enough time for error. I mean, if that's the case that a couple centuries ISN'T a big deal, then you can't say that the Qu'ran is such a bad deal, only a couple of centuries after Mohammed decided to kill all those worshippers of gods aside from his and then rant and rave in the desert to his followers.
When John was exiled to Patmos (I believe you missed this point), he had just been dipped in boiling oil. Now, I'm not certain, but I'd think the pain would be great enough to drive you temporarily mad, perhaps mad enough to say the end of the world was coming and all these bright lights and jewels adorn a city from the clouds and there's a dragon, and a woman with wings in the desert, and a woman bearing a son in outer space and giant flying locusts and lots and lots and lots of blood.
That's what my point was.
And still, Paul...so what? He had a big conversion, oh whoop-dee-do. That makes him the authority and final word on God. I mean, dang. Why can't we add into the Bible anymore? Does God NOT inspire anymore? If so, why the big pause after Paul? He get bored? Not enough Jew Christians of the tribe of Benjamin, Pharisees and all that whatnot? Why can't I add something to the Bible, and just say it was God-inspired? In a sense, if I DID anything to the Bible, then according to predestination doctrine, I was predestined to write it, and put it up for canonization, and thus it was God who inspired it. Right?
Mahfrot, the giant circle of what you just said blares out like a claxon: The Bible is True because God says so, and the Bible is God's Word. So God says God is true. Who else says God is true aside from God?
I mean, there's my main problem. It's all descended to a simple matter of faith, but when that simple patter is pondered upon, then death happens to the brain cells by the gazillion.
And Moses didn't write it doooown! It was written down when the oral tradition was decided as not a good thing to work it to preserve history. It wasn't "a few years", it was a coupla centuries or more. Enough time for error. I mean, if that's the case that a couple centuries ISN'T a big deal, then you can't say that the Qu'ran is such a bad deal, only a couple of centuries after Mohammed decided to kill all those worshippers of gods aside from his and then rant and rave in the desert to his followers.
When John was exiled to Patmos (I believe you missed this point), he had just been dipped in boiling oil. Now, I'm not certain, but I'd think the pain would be great enough to drive you temporarily mad, perhaps mad enough to say the end of the world was coming and all these bright lights and jewels adorn a city from the clouds and there's a dragon, and a woman with wings in the desert, and a woman bearing a son in outer space and giant flying locusts and lots and lots and lots of blood.
That's what my point was.
And still, Paul...so what? He had a big conversion, oh whoop-dee-do. That makes him the authority and final word on God. I mean, dang. Why can't we add into the Bible anymore? Does God NOT inspire anymore? If so, why the big pause after Paul? He get bored? Not enough Jew Christians of the tribe of Benjamin, Pharisees and all that whatnot? Why can't I add something to the Bible, and just say it was God-inspired? In a sense, if I DID anything to the Bible, then according to predestination doctrine, I was predestined to write it, and put it up for canonization, and thus it was God who inspired it. Right?
Master~Plan
New Member
What would it take to convince you that God is perfect?
What is God's motive for lying?
Is there a reason to believe God is not perfect?
What is God's motive for lying?
Is there a reason to believe God is not perfect?
1. A word from the man himself would probably do it. If he's infalliable then he should be able to convince little old me right handily. Oh wait, his voice would cause my heart and head to shatter, wouldn't it? Handy that...
2. What is anyone's motivation for lying? To place himself in a position of advantage.
3. Nobody else is perfect - in the whole of pantheistic mythology, in the whole of science and in the realm of legend. Everything else is limited, flawed and subject to error. Why would you believe he was perfect - you've no experience with the concept!
2. What is anyone's motivation for lying? To place himself in a position of advantage.
3. Nobody else is perfect - in the whole of pantheistic mythology, in the whole of science and in the realm of legend. Everything else is limited, flawed and subject to error. Why would you believe he was perfect - you've no experience with the concept!
Master~Plan
New Member
hmm, do I sense sarcasm? hehe, I thought if he told you he was perfect and right, that would be circular reasoning...[b said:
He is God who created everything, advantage where?[b said:
True nothing else is perfect, but thats against the standard God made. As far as experience, no I don't have a lot of experience with Perfection, but I do talk to a perfect God who loves me back, so I guess that counts as experience.[b said: