"Help me..." NiN

[b said:
Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ Feb. 13 2004,1:11)]hmm, do I sense sarcasm? hehe, I thought if he told you he was perfect and right, that would be circular reasoning...

He is God who created everything, advantage where?

True nothing else is perfect, but thats against the standard God made. As far as experience, no I don't have a lot of experience with Perfection, but I do talk to a perfect God who loves me back, so  I guess that counts as experience.
Click to expand...
1. Yes, very perceptive. Sarcasm it was.
smile.gif
If he just floated down and TOLD me then yes, it would be circular reasoning (although it would neatly sidestep the fact that God tells you zip - he gets a book to do it for him). However if he's the supreme being he would be able to convince me - why put words in his mouth? He's omniscient - so he should know the argument, right?

2. Well, he's got you believing that he's the god who created everything and that no other God exists or counts. I clearly don't believe that, so you work out what I meant.

3.Perfection is an absolute. No standard is involved. He doesn't talk to ME, so he can't be all that perfect can he? This whole sin thing didn't go according to plan (or the plan is so monstrous that it's even worse if it did!) so how perfect is that?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Eon @ Feb. 13 2004,1:20)]He doesn't talk to ME, so he can't be all that perfect can he?
Click to expand...
have you tried talking to Him?

Maybe there's more to it than head knowledge here. Would you say you're happy with your life? Do you feel fulfilled? Do you feel like you have purpose and meaning? What kind of relationship do you have with your gods? Don't you ever feel empty inside?

What is the point of your existence?

It's true that God created us with minds, and we can use our minds to reason and debate. But we're whole beings. There's more to this than just trying to logically figure out who's write and wrong, or if neither or us or right or whatever.

And Ultima, check your facts, things weren't written down hundreds of years later. Read up on a non-biased text before you try to disprove what I say. Oh, and if I remember correctly, Jesus was raised from the dead and is alive. Mohammed...yea he's still in the grave.

Revelation isn't meant to be taken literally. If you knew anything about the culture of the day and the nature of Christians' persecution from the Roman empire, most things described are from a historicist perspective, relating figurative language with real things happening at the time Paul wrote everything down. I suggest you read Revelation by Grant R. Osborne, it's a commentary that might clear some things up for you. Oh, and about John...I have faith in my God enough to say that if He was going to protect him from death (which being boiled alive usually led to) He would probably keep him in sound mind as well.

Also, you've got the predestination doctrine a little out of whack. That has to deal with salvation, not being predicted to do something.

And I'll accept things you add to the Bible when you live out your faith like Jesus did (which Paul did after his conversion).

If you don't want to accept Paul's doctrine, then fine, you don't have to. Most of the Jews don't. But show me a Christ-centered life free of the Law without his writings and then I'll see what you have to say.

It all basically comes down to this fact: try talking to God about these things yourself. He's not gonna answer you in an audible voice, but you'll hear Him if you really listen in your heart and spirit.
 
Yes... I won't go into full details of my religious career, but suffice it to say that I was a Church attending, Choir singing, baptised Christian.

I talked. I talked. I talked. Finally I stopped to listen and realised that there was just me in the room. As far as I'm concerned, I don't know when or how it happened but Yahweh is either dead or he's not talking. Maybe he's ill, I couldn't say. For some time I was distracted by the echoes of his presence, but for me that's all they ever were - it has been centuries since he trod the places I walked looking for him.

It's something I only realised when I encountered an actual living spirit - let alone a real, live, God. Gods are scary things - huge primal forces, elemental in nature. To be honest we, as humans, don't NEED to interact with them often - there's little at our scale that Gods need to attend to.
 
Let me see...
I think you should realize Mahfrot, that Mohammed ascended to heaven at the Dome of the Rock. Kind of hard to have a dead body if it's in heaven, ain't it? Same can be said for Jesus...you have no point against Muslims because their spiritual leader has no body behind. Maybe.

I do read non-biased texts. I read as much as I can. I read supporters, anti-supporters and just plain ol' journals. Most either ignore or can't answer those questions I've asked, and many more.

I, I, I kinda guessed thar Revelation wasn't written literally...if it was, I'd definitely say John had been puffing the magic dragon when he decided to pen it down to them seven churches. However, I still think that excruciating pain might have placed him into a delirious state. Some people go crazy from thirst. This guy's skin was boiled off. I mean, dang.

It's not whether or not Paul's words are doctrine, it's whether or not any of the Bible is valid as it was censored and edited and compiled by a buncha old men of the Church who decided what should and should not be included within the Word, and then they have the audacity to say it's inspired by God and anyone who questions the Bible's validity questions God himself.
 
Ultima...you claim to be a Christian, struggling with "doctrine"...yet you put no validity in the major source of learning about God's nature and how he interacts? Where are you getting the stuff for doing theology? Is it just something "fun" to do with Scripture?

Funny...you know what happens when you try to do theology without caring about Scripture? You turn into an academician who's good at semantics. Nothing more. That's what my life has been like the last year. It's hard to admit it, and it's hard to change it, but it's possible.


Also, Eon, I've been wondering something. You claim not to hear Yahweh. Do you hear your gods? I'm not meaning that in a condescending way, so please don't take it that way.
 
I don't have talks with them inside my head, if that's what you mean - but I've communicated with things that I believe are my Gods. It's not words - it's feelings, thoughts, images and sensations. I find it difficult to explain to someone who might not have experienced it.
 
I may have a little help for those participating in this discussion. I myself am not accomplished enough a scholar to completely answer the questions Eon and Ultima have posed, but I have done a little research and turned up some answers that may help.

This would be the first link I would look to in addressing this subject. This is a fantastic essay that addresses much of the issues on trial here. This article explains the ideology of divine inspiration, addresses the Qu'ran, and then launches into a lengthy response to many so-called "contradictions" in the bible.

http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm

Here's a great link that has quite a wealth of knowledge on the Dead Sea Scrolls, which has been mentioned in this post. The DSS, as mentioned by TastyWheat, is good reinforcement for the bible.

http://www.reachingforchrist.org/apologetics/evidences.php

This link talks about the historical reliability of the Bible.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r14ac.html

As for the Song of Solomon, the pastor of Denton Bible Church, Tommy Nelson, has done a wonderful series of sermons on the book, and what he uncovers is wonderful. Song of Solomon is, at the same time, both a perfect picture of the love of Christ to his children and the love of a husband to his wife. Song of Solomon presents an image of what we should strive for in our marriages, and also in our relationship to Him. Sex is something that He created, and it's something that Song of Solomon celebrates. The Lord created sex to be a wonderful thing, and Song of Solomon illustrates this, along with the amazing passion of romantic love.

When you click this link, click on the title of each sermon and it will let you listen to them in RealAudio format.

http://dbcmedia.org/1-866-DBC-TAPES/list.php?series_id=39466

I hope these links have helped. I would love to join with you in debating religion here.

Thanks!
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Let me see...
I think you should realize Mahfrot, that Mohammed ascended to heaven at the Dome of the Rock. Kind of hard to have a dead body if it's in heaven, ain't it? Same can be said for Jesus...you have no point against Muslims because their spiritual leader has no body behind. Maybe
Click to expand...

Ultima, It was a spiritual accention at the dome on the rock. His body was carried back Medina and burried there. There is a mosque where he is burried.

Cory
 
Yes, I recalled that after I made that post in haste.
I erred there.
Thank you Thaddius.

Mmkay, TastyWheat, here's the gist of it all, then, since you've missed the cases against the Bible I've been trying to cope with: if the Bible is wrong / inaccurate in some parts, then what's to stop it from being wrong in other parts; if the Bible is perfectly true, what validates it as being true aside from its own self; if the Bible's unquestionability arises from a group of canonizing old men, then how reliable IS it to be if it's missing something or had something edited out of it, or something was lost in translation, or such and such? If mere mortal man put it together and decided for God what was good for other men to know about God, then who do I believe? The editors or the authors, or the so-called "Inspirer"?

And if, then, the Bible is naught, yeah. I'll just be a bantering scholar. I want to be wrong, but you know what...being told to silence myself up and nod my head in ignorance doesn't bode well with me.
 
Well, I haven't really missed the cases you've been struggling with; I appreciate your struggle, mainly because like I said I've gone through it myself lately. Definitely the wrong thing to do is being silent and becoming a sheep - that's one of the biggest problems with modern Christianity in my opinion.

I don't say any of this to berate you or be condescending...I am genuinely concerned that scholasticism and reason are going to totally win out on faith, and believing in the fantastic mysteries of Scripture
smile.gif
I look at your intellect and ability to criticize and I know God has a brilliant plan for utilizing that for His work. But like I said before...don't worry about predestination or free will until you get stuff sorted out with Scripture, the foundation for that stuff.

I think Aquinas hit the nail on the head with this sort of thing. He said that relying on the intellect to figure everything out about Christianity can only take you to the bridge, and faith is the only way to cross it. I personally don't believe Scripture is 100% accurate in every geneology etc etc...but I know by faith that its message has not changed.
 
That's a good point...I think that even if little things here and there have been misquoted or copied down wrong, the point is still the same, and I think that I can still be saved and have a thriving relationship with Christ despite those things. Dwelling on the head knowledge too much kills whatever's left in heart knowledge...
 
It's great that you guys realise that - if Christians just said as much in public every now and then, perhaps there would be less tension between the faiths!

It's this public pretension that you know all answers that causes others to challenge you so much.
 
Including ourselves...
Seeing as how most of Christianity consists of bovine baa-ers, I can't see how any of us could claim to be knowing stuff in God, except for those who know stuff in God.

Challenge away...I think the more challenges destroyed means the stronger my faith in Christianity can become. Strong cases against Christianity have yet to be made, as most concern the people in Christianity, rather than the belief system itself.
 
By your argument, Ultima, we should all be ardent Communists! Doesn't your bible also say that "by their works shall ye know them"?
 
glad these are post-cold war days...otherwise Christians would be reported!

j/k of course... that statement is partly true, but you may be thinking of the verse that says that we shall be known by our love...though works are important (though not necessary for salvation), but even the Mormons do works and are completely lost...
 
Actually, Communism was a wonderful idea. Alas, far too utilitarian and that's why it falls. Take away the utilitarianism and it'd work, but then you'd have no Communism.

Stupid Kant.

Yes, Eon, it does say such. But challenges against the people doesn't actually aid in revealing the people except for how the people respond. If I take your challenges to faith and make a Crusade out of it, well, I'd not be the sanest person to look to for a good example of Christianity. And no, I don't think the only good person for an example would be Christ. I think there are Christians who show the faith in life and works. Truly, I believe that passage was for IDing faking "Christians" from the crop of Christianity. I could be wrong, but that's my take on it, though all people's fruits can be seen through their actions.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Feb. 19 2004,4:36)]Actually, Communism was a wonderful idea.
Click to expand...
I think you would rather say that Socialism was a wonderful idea. It was just the fact that Lenin figured out pretty quick that he wouldn't be able to impose Socialism without using military force that brought about Communism.
 
For me the bloom was definitely off the rose when they decided to reverse their ratio of Industrial:Rural workers by starving the Rural workers to death.

I don't see how THAT is serving the needs of the many.
 
communism...just like many things, in theory it works. however, when the unpredictability of humanity is factored in, well, that's a whole new ballgame.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top