"Help me..." NiN

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Allrightie.
I'm ticked. I'm majorly ticked.
Frigging free will or predestination, for the last f'ing time. WHAT should I believe? My views on having everything programmed out from the beginning means that God not only knew that evil would enter the world, but rigged it so that evil WOULD enter the world.
If, on the other hand, God didn't program the world's everything (he just knew what would happen............), then evil is not under his jurisdiction, just ultimately under his punishment or oversight ("grace"). If that is the case, then he did not make Lucifer with the intent for Lucifer to say, "Dudes, let's revolt." Meaning that he did not make Adam and Eve with the intent of them choosing the fruit.

Now my only problem with that is this: if we have here this omnipotent God, then he either a.) created evil and that's why He knew it would come about or b.) did not create evil, but knew it would come about anyways so hey.

Garrrr!
I entered into a theological debate with both my parents. Does God have to know everything? Why? My mom is of this stupid impulse that if I question anything of God, then I'm calling him a liar. I just smile and nod and quit listening after she says that. So I said, "What's so bad if God DOES NOT know everything? I mean, yeah, he says he's sovereign and all that, but does having all power mean having all knowledge? I'm sure he could have it if he wanted it, because I do believe he's all-powerful." Bible guys...I need a passage that validates Him affirming that He has all knowledge.
Also, the validity of the Bible. Who chose what goes into it? The CHURCH. Song of Solomons: "Baby, I love you, let's screw." That's its content. Psalms: "Praise God, and here are some aspects of the LORD." The older books, the prophets. Okay. Why not some others, though? Why not more prophets? Where's Gad the Seer? Nathan the Prophet? And the letters of Paul...THEY are not able to be questioned?

Help guys...
 
Genesis 3:5 "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God, knowing everything, both good and evil." Even Satan knows that God knows everything.

Matthew 10:29 "Not even a sparrow, worth only half a penny, can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it." Jesus was God, so He knows what He's talking about.

Acts 17:22 So Paul, standing before the Council, addressed them as follows: "Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious, 23 for as I was walking along I saw your many altars. And one of them had this inscription on it – 'To an Unknown God.' You have been worshiping him without knowing who he is, and now I wish to tell you about him. 24 "He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since he is Lord of heaven and earth, he doesn't live in man-made temples, 25 and human hands can't serve his needs – for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need there is. 26 From one man he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand which should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries. 27 "His purpose in all of this was that the nations should seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him – though he is not far from any one of us. 28 For in him we live and move and exist. As one of your own poets says, 'We are his offspring.' 29 And since this is true, we shouldn't think of God as an idol designed by craftsmen from gold or silver or stone. 30 God overlooked people's former ignorance about these things, but now he commands everyone everywhere to turn away from idols and turn to him. For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead." This is Paul's summary.

Hopefully that's kinda clear...He knows everything.

On the Bible...the Church didn't exactly choose the books. It was basically a council, filled with Bible scholars and such, completely inspired by God, and the Bible as we know it has actually been revised a couple times as compared to the original King James version to include newly found manuscripts. Song of Solomon isn't a book about sex, it's about God's relationship with us and vice-versa; Solomon uses a lot of figurative language and comparisons, which might make it seem like what most people assume it is, but it's actually a very beautiful song. Reading it would help clarify a bit.
tounge.gif


As far as the kinds of prophets and stuff that actually made it into the Bible, that was really a tough decision. The books that were chosen as part of the Canon (as it's called) were put under a lot of scrutiny, especially concerning the book's authorship, how old it was when found, it's content (i.e. is God even mentioned?) and relevance. It's true that there are probably a couple of books (intertestamental prophecy and such) that might've deserved to belong in the Canon compared with others, but as Christians we say that we have complete trust in God that whatever ended up in the Canon was by His inspiration.

As far as Paul, he has more authority than some of the other Biblical writers in my opinion. Here's a man that was the worst persecutor of Christians ever known, who was met by God and radically transformed. It's not unusual to doubt his authority; even the apostles doubted his authority. But if you've ever taken some time to read through some of his letters, you'll notice that not a word isn't inspired by God, there's nothing off in what he says, and everything he instructs us to do is straight from God and lines up with His commandments. Check out Acts 9 if you wanna read it for yourself.

Hope this helps some, if I just confused you more then I can try to straighten it out later.
 
ok. we have an omniscient God.

He created everything. Yet He did not WISH there to be evil in His creation. Yet He did WISH there to be free will. Now His desire for us to have free will, overrode His desire for there to be no evil (imagine your making a choice between a pack of peanut butter crackers or a candy bar, which do you want more) At the same time, He knew that by giving us free will, evil would be found in His creation. Evil and sin is a byproduct of free will. For if we have the choice to make decisions, that includes making the wrong decision.

So evil is not under His creation, but is a byproduct of that creation, but there is a price to be paid for commiting evil (death).


Now onto the debate. tHis thought that we should never question things, is a dangerous heresy that's crept into the church over the past few hundred years, and has raised it's ugly head numerous times since the start of the Christian faith. But it is just that. a heresy. The Bible clearly tells us to question the acts of the Spirit (which is questioning God) as well as question those who teach us.

Besides, if we don't question what we know of God, how will we learn more?

Mahfrot's quotes on God's knowledge are good places to start. I believe there are a few more in the OT, I can't remember references off-hand, but I want to say Isaiah and Job, though I'm probably wrong on that.
 
Help me out here, but he made the Angels WITHOUT freewill - isn't that supposed to be what ticked off the Morningstar?

So Lucifers fall WAS preordained, it happened before Eden which meant that God had already created evil before Man ever sinned, which meant that God knew man would sin before he created him, which meant he created him in the full knowledge that he would sin. <phew>

Now, conjecture further, if this is ALL true, then how is there such a thing as freewill at all? If there is a single creator, no opposing force and that creator knew all ends before he started, then what you have is an elaborate play, ladies and gentlemen.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If there is a single creator, no opposing force and that creator knew all ends before he started, then what you have is an elaborate play, ladies and gentlemen.

This is only true if you believe that God is making our decisions for us. What your saying is that God cannot know everything and still allow us to make our own choices. I believe that while He does know the choices we will make, He lets us make them, right or wrong.

Cory
 
I say that if you place a marble on a smooth inclined surface on a 1 gravity planet and you let that marble go, then it's kinda whimsical to claim that the marble has free will. You may not have pushed that marble yourself, but given free rein over the environmental circumstances meant that you may as well have.
 
no He made the angels with freewill. but without physical forms.

The morningstar's problem was he was prideful and thought he could do a better job than God.


to use your marble arguement. you place the marble, you know all the possible directions it could go, but you don't know which way it will roll.

actually a better example is placing a drop of water on your arm and watch it roll off. You know all the possible ways it can, but you didn't control it, likewise you place another drop in the exact same spot on your arm, and it will roll off in a different way altogethor. As it is with God. God knows all possible things our choices can bring. Yet we still get to make those choices.
 
Actually there is no such variable in physics as "chance". There is only probability. And probability merely sums up those conditions outside our control or prediction. If you're omniscient you know EXACTLY which way that drop of water will roll off, consistent with surface tension, fluid dynamics, gravity and so forth.
 
even with the evil entering our world romans 8:28 says all things work together for good so i have no complaints, and trust in God.
 
well at least i know im gonna be in heaven so im not wrryd
 
<shrugs> I've never seen a soul. But if you think about it, where did the sheep come from and where does it go? You can't destroy anything - that's one of the fundamental laws of physics - so where does the sheep go?

When you kill a Sheep you're left with almost everything that made it a sheep - same with people. But you're missing Something some indefinable spark that causes consciousness. Even in sheep.

I often think that this must be the thing that is offered in blood sacrifices. I know sheep were once considered a suitable offering to most Gods - if sheep don't have souls then what makes them Sheep?
 
a sheep brain allows them consciousness. all those things inside a sheep make it conscious. a soul 1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.


so as the dictionary says its for humans not sheep.
 
Eon, have you ever read C.S. Lewis' Great Divorce or Mere Christianity? They're pretty good reads for people like me and you.
 
I don't read CS Lewis after I read what I thought was a diverting series of Childrens books and discovered it was a poorly concealed attempt at a Recruiting pitch.
 
Well, seeing as neither of the two books I've recommended are "children's books" I think you should give them a shot.

Don't accuse Christians of being close-minded if you aren't willing to be open-minded yourself
wink.gif
 
When you and I can discuss the Havamal from a position of mutual knowledge like you and I can discuss the bible, then I'll worry about whether I'm meeting you halfway... <Grin>
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As far as the kinds of prophets and stuff that actually made it into the Bible, that was really a tough decision. The books that were chosen as part of the Canon (as it's called)....
good stuff mahfrot, I couldn't remember how that one went.

Ive pondered this as topic as well, and I am equally confused, however if you expect to understand God fully you just end up confused and dissapointed. I know God knows the future because of all the prophecies. And if God knows the end, it would be like watching a movie, but you know how it ends... Doesn't seem to exciting to me, except if were all in a comedy cuz I could watch dumb and dumber one hundered times and still want to see it again.
Alrite back to seriouse thoughts, I don't think we can possibly comprehend the mind of God, and as far as how it applies to our lives, I don't think what God knows applies to us. However I love logical discussions like this for some reason.

-Corey
 
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