[7F]tHeEniGma
New Member
mrpopdrinker, I respect your beliefs and your POV; This is meant for the sole purpose of challenging you to look even deeper. Oh, and FTR, I do believe in divine healing as well! But physical healing does not happen in order to facilitate our own desires. Here are some thoughts I was writing down last night on the subject. I know I have a tendency to get long winded at subjects I'm passionate about, and this is definitely no exception 
Point to ponder: We know that God loves us and takes care of our every need. *Need* being the operative word here. What *we* may consider a need and what *God* considers a need are often completely different!
How is it then, that we place such importance on our physical state, when we serve an infinite, eternal God? Doesn’t it stand to reason then, that He would be much more concerned about our spiritual state than or physical? Shouldn’t we then? Our physical existence is but an immeasurable speck considered to our eternity. With complete respect, our physical state is quite irrelevant compared to eternity! I maintain that physical health is not a *need* in order to serve God, be a witness and harvest souls for the Kingdom. Additionally, Healing may occur in forms other than just physical, pop. God may heal that person’s wounded soul, may heal their mind, and may heal relationships; the things that carry far more importance than physical healing.
Remember, Judaism was/is very ‘sign’ oriented. They needed signs for everything. Jesus gave them signs, so that they might believe. How much of a 'sign' is it, when someone someone is thanking Jesus for their current condition (Job for example) amidst unimaginable calamity? Pretty impressive sign for those around him I'm sure!
I can tell you, I’ve seen godly people, on their death bed, dying of cancer, even of aids (not sinfully contracted either), in vast amounts of pain, praising and thanking God; and the doctors and nurses, relatives etc, acknowledging that God was at work in their midst. No one can say that this was not God’s divine plan for their lives. Physical healing was not God’s highest in these cases.
Food for Thought: Sometimes, a physical ailment may be the only way to keep a person consistently depending on God for all their needs!
I would respectfully draw your attention to a couple of key points which are integral in our lives as followers of Christ.
1) God's Divine Authority (or, God's in control not us, and he has the last word)
2) The suffering of Christ, and how it applies to us. (Or, we must take up our cross and follow Him)
Divine Authority (one point of..)
As followers of Christ, we must recognize that ultimately, Jesus is the one who has the authority to determine our path, our fate, and our life's outcome. I am NOT talking about our free will (et al) here. If you are a follower, then Jesus is the one at the helm of your life, not you. "The steps of a good man (follower of Christ) are ordered by the Lord"
There are certain elements that are what I would call 'absolutes' (you could also call them 'laws') in our lives as humans. The big ones are:
a) The Fallibility of man,
b) The Frailty of man and
c) The Finiteness of man.
Meaning: we make mistakes, we're weak (both in flesh and will), and our physical existence has a beginning and an end! God is the one that determines the moment and cause of our death, not us. Where does faith come into play here? Well, our faith cannot operate outside of or above God's authority or His will.
Enter; The Suffering With Christ.
This is one extremely important attribute of Christ that many believers like to overlook. It’s far to uncomfortable to acknowledge because, to acknowledge it, means we’re accountable for what we know.
So many think that we should not experience any hardship, sickness or pain, or even inconveniences in life; we should always be healthy, always prosper, and always get what we want. If not, there must be something wrong with us, or we're not living a victorious Christian life. Consequently, it’s implied that poverty, sickness, hardship, pain and inconveniences must then be of the devil. This is complete rubbish. It's because much is taken out of context. If we are to emulate Christ should we not be willing, are we not even called to be partakers in his suffering as well? Take up *our* cross and follow him? You bet.
Heb 5:8 - Though he [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.
So what about our part now?
1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
Look at so many of the characters in scripture and you see it as a consistent element in Christendom:
Job: poor guy was as Godly as they come, yet he went through hell and high water. Why? God *chose* to give him more than he ever had, but that was for God’s glory as well! Think of all the others who didn’t…
Stephen: One of the *many* martyrs for Christ. (Consequently, many of the disciples died of martyrdom.)
Paul: He had an ailment his whole life...one which he loathed…a cross he had to bear...why didn't he get healed? I'm sure he had plenty of faith to believe God could heal him.
My point is, we *don't* know all the answers. All we know is, God wants to be glorified through it somehow. We don't have to understand it, we just have to have faith to believe it. To have the faith to believe that God’s will *is* being done regardless of the circumstances, transcends any amount of faith it takes to believe for healing and just accept that you’re not doing something right, or you don’t have *enough* faith when someone isn’t physically healed.
On Preview: Amen pop, "Demons and devils tremble at the name and authority of Jesus!!!" However, when it relates to physical sickness, it's usually a very specific demon, which you said yourself; it's the spirit of infirmity! (which has a definite physical manifestation according to Luke.)
Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Other sicknesses are *usually* the result of the human condition pop; Our *frailty* if you will, which of course is a result of the fall of man, allowing sickness and death into the world. Demons and devils, as a rule do not cause physical ailments, they cause spiritual ones Regardless, we have dominion over them through Christ, you're right!
Whatever the case, keep studying the Word, pressing in to God dude! None of us have all the answers, and we’re all in this together, to share, grow, and learn.
Point to ponder: We know that God loves us and takes care of our every need. *Need* being the operative word here. What *we* may consider a need and what *God* considers a need are often completely different!
Remember, Judaism was/is very ‘sign’ oriented. They needed signs for everything. Jesus gave them signs, so that they might believe. How much of a 'sign' is it, when someone someone is thanking Jesus for their current condition (Job for example) amidst unimaginable calamity? Pretty impressive sign for those around him I'm sure!
I can tell you, I’ve seen godly people, on their death bed, dying of cancer, even of aids (not sinfully contracted either), in vast amounts of pain, praising and thanking God; and the doctors and nurses, relatives etc, acknowledging that God was at work in their midst. No one can say that this was not God’s divine plan for their lives. Physical healing was not God’s highest in these cases.
Food for Thought: Sometimes, a physical ailment may be the only way to keep a person consistently depending on God for all their needs!
I would respectfully draw your attention to a couple of key points which are integral in our lives as followers of Christ.
1) God's Divine Authority (or, God's in control not us, and he has the last word)
2) The suffering of Christ, and how it applies to us. (Or, we must take up our cross and follow Him)
Divine Authority (one point of..)
As followers of Christ, we must recognize that ultimately, Jesus is the one who has the authority to determine our path, our fate, and our life's outcome. I am NOT talking about our free will (et al) here. If you are a follower, then Jesus is the one at the helm of your life, not you. "The steps of a good man (follower of Christ) are ordered by the Lord"
There are certain elements that are what I would call 'absolutes' (you could also call them 'laws') in our lives as humans. The big ones are:
a) The Fallibility of man,
b) The Frailty of man and
c) The Finiteness of man.
Meaning: we make mistakes, we're weak (both in flesh and will), and our physical existence has a beginning and an end! God is the one that determines the moment and cause of our death, not us. Where does faith come into play here? Well, our faith cannot operate outside of or above God's authority or His will.
Enter; The Suffering With Christ.
This is one extremely important attribute of Christ that many believers like to overlook. It’s far to uncomfortable to acknowledge because, to acknowledge it, means we’re accountable for what we know.
So many think that we should not experience any hardship, sickness or pain, or even inconveniences in life; we should always be healthy, always prosper, and always get what we want. If not, there must be something wrong with us, or we're not living a victorious Christian life. Consequently, it’s implied that poverty, sickness, hardship, pain and inconveniences must then be of the devil. This is complete rubbish. It's because much is taken out of context. If we are to emulate Christ should we not be willing, are we not even called to be partakers in his suffering as well? Take up *our* cross and follow him? You bet.
Heb 5:8 - Though he [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.
So what about our part now?
1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
Look at so many of the characters in scripture and you see it as a consistent element in Christendom:
Job: poor guy was as Godly as they come, yet he went through hell and high water. Why? God *chose* to give him more than he ever had, but that was for God’s glory as well! Think of all the others who didn’t…
Stephen: One of the *many* martyrs for Christ. (Consequently, many of the disciples died of martyrdom.)
Paul: He had an ailment his whole life...one which he loathed…a cross he had to bear...why didn't he get healed? I'm sure he had plenty of faith to believe God could heal him.
My point is, we *don't* know all the answers. All we know is, God wants to be glorified through it somehow. We don't have to understand it, we just have to have faith to believe it. To have the faith to believe that God’s will *is* being done regardless of the circumstances, transcends any amount of faith it takes to believe for healing and just accept that you’re not doing something right, or you don’t have *enough* faith when someone isn’t physically healed.
On Preview: Amen pop, "Demons and devils tremble at the name and authority of Jesus!!!" However, when it relates to physical sickness, it's usually a very specific demon, which you said yourself; it's the spirit of infirmity! (which has a definite physical manifestation according to Luke.)
Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Other sicknesses are *usually* the result of the human condition pop; Our *frailty* if you will, which of course is a result of the fall of man, allowing sickness and death into the world. Demons and devils, as a rule do not cause physical ailments, they cause spiritual ones Regardless, we have dominion over them through Christ, you're right!
Whatever the case, keep studying the Word, pressing in to God dude! None of us have all the answers, and we’re all in this together, to share, grow, and learn.
