Healing ...

No no you missunderstood kidan i ment put sickness and disease in the same catagory and seperate them from conditions. I was reading somthing earlier that i beleive may be relevant to this topic jesus never prayed for anyone to be healed he commanded for them to be healed again that is the authority we have been given.
 
with my limited understand, which kidan will come in and distory i bet, that power was given to the Apostles, while we are apostles we are not Apostles, the big A's are the ones chosen by Jesus, we are all chosen but these one lived with him and have seen him personally.
 
LoJ, remember the same Spirit which rose Jesus from the dead is the same Spirit within us. Pretty cool, eh? We have that same Spirit, and God, in His grace, can use you and me to do similar miracles.

PopDrinker, I fully believe healing is an integral part of who God is. It's one of his names, as was discussed earlier. If he healed yesterday, He is more than capable of healing today.

I'm still confused how you separate disease/sickness from a condition? What defines a condition? Where is cerebral palsy? Arthritis? Polio? Or even leprosy? Since you used the example of Jesus healing the woman, where does her continual blood flow fall?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]God would allow some of us conditions like kidney stones or blindness or so forth to prevent us from geeting the *im immortal perspective* however i never have to die of cancer
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How do kidney stones and blindness prevent the "I'm immortal" perspective? I don't know of anyone who has died of blindness. The thing preventing us from thinking we are immortal is when we are faced with death.

When a Christian dies to cancer do we just stop and say, "Oh, poor old Chuck. He just didn't have enough faith to be healed."
 
pop-- Yes Christ, commanded them to be healed, but sometimes He prayed prior to healing as well (a nice ex John 11:41-44)
But just because Christ did it does not mean we can.  Christ walked on water, He told His Apostles to come out and walk on the water as well.  Does this mean I'm able to walk on water?  No, nor would I attempt it.  So it is with this.  As LoJ pointed out, Christ did give the Apostles the power to heal, given for certain ministry tasks ( Luke 9:1; 10:8-9 ), but that does not mean I automatically have the ability to heal.

While this is all said and good, you must also remember that healing is a function of the Holy Spirit, and not all have the same gifts (1 Cor. 12 1-30)


Now to go onto the concept of other's having the power to command healing.  Paul did both.  Acts 14:9, Paul ordered someone to get up, and the man in doing so was healed, but imo, Paul was prayed up, and actively seeking a miracle for a witness to the preaching he had just finished.  Later in Acts 28:8 Paul, prayed, then healed.  Who is to say which is the correct way? There is no true evidence which is the correct way, since those whom we look toward for reference in how gifts are used did both.  Yet in my opinion, we should always pray prior to healing.  Why?  Due to what happened to Paul in Acts 14:9.  After healing they were declared to be Roman gods, and the people of the city were going to make a sacrifice to Paul and Barnabas.  Using Prayer to initiate healing, means that you are publicly giving the person who is actually doing the work the credit (which is why Christ prayed before raising Lazarus from the dead, to show God's glory).  If we do not pray, and we just command, how long until we get conceited and believe that it's US that's doing the healing, or worse yet, others attribute the healing to us rather than to God.


I'm with SSqaured on the issues of seperating, what consitutes a sickness and what consitutes a condition?  Christ healed both (Blindness often, the woman with the bleeding disorder , is that a sickness or condition??, leperosy, etc.).  Paul healed both (a lame man in Acts 14:9, a some form of fever, in Acts 28:8).  Again, this is just labeling the same thing. For whether you call it a sickness or a condition, it is something that keeps the human body from functioning at the usual 'Normal' conditions (not blind, not deaf, with full facilities, both mental an physical, and in good overall health).


LoJ-- btw, why did you bring the Apostles into this? and no we're not Apostles, we're disciples. An Apostle is someone who saw Christ in the flesh, and the last one died about 1900 years ago
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. While yes, Christ gave them the power to heal and cast out evil spirits, the power and gifts we receive with the baptism of the Holy Ghost are greater, and we are able to do both of those, as well as even more things.


Now to bring to attention a VERY disturbing thought
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]however i never have to die of cancer because me having cancer isnt doing anything for God so cancer is just a name.
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How do you know this? Are you CERTAIN that you having cancer would do nothing for God's kingdom?? I know that if it would save 1 soul, I would willingly submit to having cancer.
Just because we don't see the current potential of what happens to us, does not mean it would do nothing for God's kingdom. To say that 'having cancer isn't doing anything for God' is the height of arrogance. You said that it's logical for God to allow us to have Kidney Stones and what not, but in the end, what is the difference? Why is it logical to have kidney stones, but not cancer?

Remember, the what or why things happen (be it kidney stones or cancer or anything else) DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is, and always will be, how does it affect me and my relationship with Christ. Have I used what happened to help others come closer to Christ? Have I used what happened to help myself come closer to Christ? These are the qeustions you should ask, never should it be 'Why did this happen to me?'
If I found out tomorrow I had a terminal cancer, I would not say 'Why God, I'm still young, why would you do this to me?' I would say 'It's your will Lord, How can I use this to further your Kingdom?'
 
Maybe we can't heal because we just plain can't heal. Maybe the way God works our miracles today is through the mind of excellent thinkers who have created such things as multiple medicines for several bodily plagues and also founding processes as chemotherapy (THAT was discovered in 1900).
Not a miracle? I would say if you can build a silver bird that defies gravity, that's a pretty good miracle. The human mind is perhaps one of our most amazing traits that God has imbued us with.

Well...Copeland is a Word of Faith dude. He thinks faith is a tangible kinda thing, a medium of power, and that without faith nothing can be that is. God had to have faith in himself that he would work to create the world. God has to have faith in us that we will have faith in him...God could not redeem us unless he tricked Satan in some celestial legal code...yeah. Copeland is a big faith pusher, but that dude is messed up in his theology.

Kidan your cancer response is what I said earlier about a sickness being used for the benefit of the kingdom.
Now, mrpop, if God wants us to be healthy, we may just stay healthy. If God wants to strike us with a flesh-rotting disease, he just may. Who knows the works of God? God allowed Job to suffer a lot, knowing full well Job would honor him in it all, and indeed, at the end of the ordeal, Job was doubly blessed than what he had prior Satan's begging of God to allow him to harm Job, for Job was one of the most faithful to God...interesting how faithful he was, how much he suffered.

Which brings to mind another point against Copeland...he and his wife never tell the Christians how much they are going to suffer in their faith...they make the world think Christianity is one big joyride...which is untrue. And if you think Christianity is going to be a pleasant Bueller experience, I recommend you read Fox's first and then return to this site.

Christians suffer. Maybe we suffer for Christ, maybe we suffer as some form of punishment. I doubt the latter, but I believe more in the former. End of story. Sickness, states of mind, diseases, screaming death off Pike's Peak...we suffer. Humans in general suffer. Christians have all the more reason to go through mortal pains because of Christ...the world hates us, guys. Wake up to that if you haven't already. It's nothing new that we're shot down, persecuted, ridiculed in many countries. Why? Because of two reasons: 1. Christianity is unaccepted because of its exclusiveness (Christ the only Way to Heaven) and 2. Too many "Christians" are liars, hypocrites or have no earthly idea of what they talk about when they're sharing their faith or living their life.

So Christianity is a big trouble-attracter. We will go through a lot in life. Good and bad. It depends on how you look at it. If you think stubbing your toe is some measure of righteous wrath, you're probably wrong. If you think playing the PS2 every day is some form of righteous blessing, you're probably wrong.

Look to the Bible for the answers to the absolutes.
 
I dont want to play word twister anymore seeing as how you guys arent getting the point so this will be my last post in this thread. Kidney stones and blindness are different from cancer because cancer kills kidney stones do not and if we are perfect all the time we may lost faith and see ourselves as god so he may allow the enemy to strike us with such a thing. Yes i do know i dont have to die of cancer because me death of cancer would not lead anyone to christ and we have authority in the name of Jesus. There are many other points i could address but i just got up and there are so many if you dont beleive in healing fine but i do and i know God's will for my life.
 
Sorry...which is why it's awesome to have free will. We can have differing thoughts and subbeliefs in the prime Belief.

I still say many can benefit from your testimony in death...
 
y'know I know God's will for my life.... For today. Tomorrow that may change, and for me to assume that God's will for my life will always be static just means I'm not praying enough.


Pop. There are numerous diseases that don't kill. There are numerous defects that the human body can have that don't kill. Yet at the same time there are numerous diseases and defects that do kill. Yet they are really all the same. Besides, who are you to decide if you will die of cancer or not? All we know is that it is appointed unto us to die. We do not get to decide the how's the why's or the when's. We also do not get to decide how the sicknesses and pain and joy and all those other things that happen to us affects others. I cannot say that my death from cancer would not help God's kingdom. How can you?


Yes we have authority in Jesus' name, BUT that does not mean we dictate things to Christ and to God. We have authority, but it is like all authority, and subject to those above us.

I don't think anyone here ever said there was no healing. We all said it was (and is) up to God.
 
First off what i ment by I know gods will for my life is that its not his will for me to spend my last days wasting away in a hospital bed just to die from some disease that he has authority over. Who am I to decide if I die of cancer or not? Because the curse of my sin is broken and i dont need it and i have victory over such things through jesus. My dying of cancer could not lead anyone to christ if anthing it would lead them away from him but if my dying of cancer would lead someone to Jesus then may i get the worst form of it.~EDIT~ To clear somthing up i never said i wouldent get cancer all i have been saying is that i dont have to die from it or any other disease or sickness.
 
sorry mrpop but i have had personal experience where someone was DIEING of cancer, and they where lost, and cancer is what brought them to the Lord, God uses all things for His glory and honor. your right its not for us to decide when we die, but in all things we need to summit our selves to Gods perfect will and then He will bless us, a really good book the life your always wanted by Ortberg published by Zonderman has a really good lesson in it


it can be helpful to see how God brings about transformation in the lives of ordinary people, so i would like to introduce you toa firend of a friend of mine. her name is mable that is what my friend Tom schimidt wrote "the sate run convalescent hospital is not a pleasant place it is large and understaffed and overfilled with senil eand helpless lonely people who are waiting to die

on the brightest of days it seems darkinside and smells of sickness and stale urine, i went there once a week for four years but i never wanted to go there,, i always left with a sense of relief its not that kind of place one gets used to
on a particular day i was walking in a hallway that i had not visisted before looking in vain for a few who were alive enough to recieve a flower and a few words fo encouragement this hallay semed to contain some of the worst cases. strapped onto ccarts or into wheelchairs and looking completely helpless

as i neared the end of the hallway i knowticed an old women strapped up in a wheelchar, her face was an absolute horror. the empty stare and white pupils of her eye told me that she was blind the large hearing aid over one ear told me that she was almost deaf one side of her face was being eaten away by cancer there was a discollored andrunning sore covering part of one cheek and it had pushed her nose to one side dropped one eye nad distorted her jaw so that what should of been the corner of her mouth was the bottom of her motuh. so she drooled constantly i learned later that this women was eighty nine years old and that she had been here bedriden blind nearly deaf and alone for twenty five years, her name is mabel. i put a rose in her and said happy mothers day she held the flower up to her face adn tried to smell it and then she spoke to much my surprise her words although garbled were obviously produced by a clear mind. she said thank you its lovely but can i give it to someone else i cant see it you know i am blind. so i wheeled her to a place where i thought i could find some alert patients and i found one and stop the chair mable help out the flower and said

"here this is from Jesus".

that is when it began to dawn on me that this was not an ordinary women,

he goes on to talk about how they became friends and to learn a little bit about mabel and her life

she had ran a farm alone until 1950 when her blindness and sickness sent her to the hospital for 25 years she got weaker sicker and constant head aches backaches and stomarchaches and then cancer came too her roommates were all human vegetables they often soiled their bedclothes and the hospital was severally understaffed so the stench was over powering.

over the weeks he read to her or they sang hymns and he never heared her complain about lonelyness or pain except in the stress she placed on certain lines in certain hymns.

he aksed her what does she think about
" i think about jesus"
i think about how good hes been to me hes been awfully good to me in my life you know i am one of those kind whos mostly satisfied lots of folks wouldnt care much for what i think lots of folks would think i am kind of old fashion but i dont care i would rather have Jesus hes all the world to me.

imagine being in her condition and saying i think about how good hes been to me i am one of those whos mostly satisfied.

i mean unfortnaly pain and death are real and true, but its about our focus, if we keep our focus on God no matter what the enemy throws at us we will stay true to God.

the reason why i think that God doesnt always heal is because He is our Father.

and lets say you have a child who wants to touch a hotburner, you can either stop them by force, warn them, or not say a thing and let it play it self out.

no matter what though you know what will happen if they touch the hot burner, and you will be there for them, but for each child they learn through different means and for some of us unfortnally it means getting burned.
 
Good story but i dont quite get your analogy. (no offense of course) I fail to see how she was serving the Lord in her posision. Like i pointed out earlier we can proclaim against the things the enemy throws at us or we can just take it and not lose heart or we can take it and lose heart the choice is ours.
 
INteresting...but kinda confusing post there Lion. Sorry but I couldn't follow it too well, though I got the gist.

And Pop...we die when we die. I may have to die with a disease...or I may have to die with a bullet wound...I may have to die when a piece of the WTC crumples on my poor, unprotected skull. I may have to die from anything...most especially a disease, since this world is abundant in them.

Look, my ma's got diabetes...it's genetic, so I may get it if I don't watch out, or I may get it anyways...I pray I don't, and I pray for Momma's healing (though I pray more for that than my own prevention). You know what? She ain't healed yet. And she may never be. But I won't blame God for that...if it's in His Will...it may just happen. It is His Will that we obey...but we don't always, so His Will isn't always obeyed and kept you know...it may be in His Will that we be healed, but we may have to do something first...something to give up, someone to talk to, some problem to clear up...something. And until that point, His Will may never come by until we do something. MAybe it's pride in whatever you have. Too prideful to ask God for healing. Too much pride to stand next to Bum Bob at the subway. Too prideful to witness to Bum Bob. And until said prideness is done away with and you SUBMIT to God's Will...then His Will for your healing may never come to fruition.

That's just an example...I'm not sure if that's Biblical (Kidan...) but that's my belief and my thoughts of how I think such things as healing work.

Diseases are rampant in this world...Christians aren't immune iron-skinned people, protected by that layer from anything rotting...we're probably all the more susceptible to it because we're Christians. I don't know, but it may be true, or we may be no different to infection and plague than any other person. So if I get struck with a cold, or the Project Blue the Superflu, or with the clap, it's just a disease I got...it doesn't mean I can't do God's Will or it's not in God's Will that I be sick. I'm sick...it may be His Will that I am sick. We can't be certain, but nothing can stop us from praying to God for healing if we truly need it, or truly desire it.
 
Thats a good way of putting it if you need to do somthing in your life in order to coincide with God's will before you are healed. Now i have another bible verse for you  
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 mark 16:17-18 and these signs will accompany those who beleive in my name they will drive out demons they will speak in new tongues they will pick up snakes in there hands and when they drink deadly poison it will not hurt them at all they will place there hands on sick people and they will get well. Now as far as your mother it may be God's will that she has what she has right now see what i said on the immortal perspective but yknow what if I where you i would anoint her and thank Jesus for what he has done and command that sickness away from her. Please dont take that too personally just a little advice from a brother in christ.  
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well sinse i had to type all of it i didnt feel like typing the whole chapter but john ortenberg goes on to say how she changed his total postion, yes she was doing services, she was showing john that no matter what you should rejoice in the lord always, for he is your jehovah jirah(jireh). she was a light to fellow beleivers by setting an example in her Life, faith, and love.
 
As I have said earlier God will let things happen for awhile to develop perseverence maby not just in you but to show it to others around you. I still beleive had she called the elders of Her/a church and had she been anointed and prayed for and the sickness commanded to leave, her jaw would have straigtend and everything else would return to normal healthy status just think of how much greater her testamony would be then!
 
your not narrow minded but you are very closed minded and stubborn ( asi can see) because your totally missing the point, she was content and JOYFUL at her situation. God heals that is not in question, but just because you are prayed for doesnt mean that you will be healed, remember that the enemy uses the sickness too, to devert our attention. what makes the elders of the church's prayers worth more than mine? God hears us all the same, and i am sure she was prayed for. this is a fallen world in a fallen time, we must suffer because of one mans choice, but we are redeemed by anothers.


Just wondering what is your denomination
 
The enemy may use sickness but remember that the enemy is defeated. You said what makes there prayers worth more than yours or mine nothing I am sorry if I worded that wrong. My denomination I really dont have one to be honest i just study the word of God to the best of my ability the name of my church is Davison Full Gospel if that helps any. You have missed a point as well LOJ Praying is not enough first of thanksgiving is the key to prayer so thank god he is sending you healing and thank him for what he has done for you. Dont just pray you gotta command that evil spirit of infirmity to come out.
 
He may use sickness...he might not. Satan attacks on weaknesses, really. He looks for an opening and exploits it. I believe that if you would absolutely hate to get X disease, he will try to inflict you with it (though I don't believe he is allowed near God anymore like he was in Job's time...). LIke I theorized with the Antichrist's reign...if you abhor X death, but will not give up God, he will personalize that death to you: join me and recant, or die X death.

Sickness, pain...it can work as God's way, or Satan's way. We can't know, not yet. But if we get sick, I'm sure we can proclaim in the Name of Jesus all we want for it to depart, and it will stick around. Because Christ is called on does not mean he has to respond. Try it and think of it. Everytime Christ has been begged for help, he has not always shown up for it. Some things we're supposed to stick it out on our own.
 
Like i said we will get sick bet then after for whatever reason we will be healed.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Everytime Christ has been begged for help, he has not always shown up for it. Some things we're supposed to stick it out on our own.
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All demons and devils tremble at the very name of Jesus and he has given us his authority while we are on earth.Its not just proclaiming the name of Jesus its receiving what he has done and as I have said earlier commanding that spirit of infirmity to go.
 
well until Jesus come back we will never know Let God be God,

its not like we are reading the greek and hebrew text so we can not fully understand any scripture 100% because it may or may not be out of context, and depending on what version you are reading too/
 
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