i believe God was testing moses' faith and with hardening pharohs heart came more struggle for moses to overcome. and i might have gotten my windows mixed up earlyer when i was posting.
Asatru 101: Basic Tenets and Beliefs
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LionOfJudah
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PoP what is your Plumb line for measuring Good, because if i compare myself to even my brother then i am a saint, now compare me to Jesus, well i am the Cheif of Sinners.
Good and Bad are all based on perception, NOW THEN if you say you are a true Christian and Believe in the Bible, well Your measuring line Should be God, and well i am sorry but you will never ever do anything Good by your self in His eyes.
Good and Bad are all based on perception, NOW THEN if you say you are a true Christian and Believe in the Bible, well Your measuring line Should be God, and well i am sorry but you will never ever do anything Good by your self in His eyes.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Good and bad are based on the law.[b said:
The law is. In this view that God controls everything God is a murderer for making pharoah to enslave the Jews and not let them go. In this view that God made us to sin God has failed his own laws. Sure he himself dident commit the things we have done. However if he forces us to do it then it was his fault and he is evil.[b said:
Erk - I missed a fair amount of this whilst it was happening...
First things first - the only disadvantage that youth brings is a lack of experience. People don't actually get any smarter the older they get, they just get better educated and more experienced. Lack of experience is a self-correcting phenomena and lack of education is corrected MORE by standing up and speaking provided you also take your turn sitting down and listening.
Now I was asked a direct question - have I ever done good? The answer is YES I have done good. I give to charity, I'm pleasant and I'm generally receptive if you need a favour.
As regards evil, we'd better come right off the fence here and admit something. If you guys are serious about your beliefs then you believe:
1. God created everything.
2. God is omniscient - so he knows how all his creations will turn out.
3. God is omnipotent - so he is capable of building his creations exactly how he wants them.
This adds up to the fact that God created sin, evil, suffering, pain, Satan and anything else you feel you don't like in the world. These things don't exist DESPITE him, they are encouraged by him - he makes them prosper.
One of the reasons why I don't believe...
Eon
First things first - the only disadvantage that youth brings is a lack of experience. People don't actually get any smarter the older they get, they just get better educated and more experienced. Lack of experience is a self-correcting phenomena and lack of education is corrected MORE by standing up and speaking provided you also take your turn sitting down and listening.
Now I was asked a direct question - have I ever done good? The answer is YES I have done good. I give to charity, I'm pleasant and I'm generally receptive if you need a favour.
As regards evil, we'd better come right off the fence here and admit something. If you guys are serious about your beliefs then you believe:
1. God created everything.
2. God is omniscient - so he knows how all his creations will turn out.
3. God is omnipotent - so he is capable of building his creations exactly how he wants them.
This adds up to the fact that God created sin, evil, suffering, pain, Satan and anything else you feel you don't like in the world. These things don't exist DESPITE him, they are encouraged by him - he makes them prosper.
One of the reasons why I don't believe...
Eon
Jehovah harded Pharoah's heart so that he could show off his power more.[b said:
[b said:
[b said:
[b said:
[b said:
Jehovah = Show Off?
Plus, you know, it is very cruel of Jehovah to injure the Egyptian people as well. I mean, Egypt was not a democracy...what, were the Egyptian people supposed to rise up and overthrow Pharoah?
(Another interesting thing. In Exodus 9:3, Jehovah sends a plague that kills, among other things, the horses and cattle of the Egyptians (all of them). Then in 13, Jehovah send hail and fire that kills more cattle. Later, in 12:29, it is revealed that the Angel of Death killed all the first-born of the cattle as well. Finally, in Exodus 14:9, Pharoah has horses again.)
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
Eon what are you using as your standard of measurement of good. that is what i presented as i said You think you did good, infact i personally consider those things good, but in the grand scheme of it, and when you use Christ as your plumbline for good, we all fall drasticly short.
Yes, LoJ - I know that Christian's say this - and yet...
Lots and lots of people sacrifice their lives for their friends, family and country - and without the sure certain knowledge of a "get out of jail free" card.
I may not have done so myself, but I don't see what elevates JC's suffering over anyone elses - what makes him worthy to be a God?
Eon
Lots and lots of people sacrifice their lives for their friends, family and country - and without the sure certain knowledge of a "get out of jail free" card.
I may not have done so myself, but I don't see what elevates JC's suffering over anyone elses - what makes him worthy to be a God?
Eon
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I don't know and I can't answer that Eon. If I could, I'd love to.
The only thing that makes Him elevated above us is that He's God. He was born as God, and He died as God, and he came back to life as God. The three days thing...that messes with me. Why three days? Was it just to prove to the rest of the world that this guy's as dead as he's gonna get before he pops out of the ground and says: "Look. I beat Death. I'm going now and I'll be back soon. Watch the skies."
And to answer your allegations of God creating all this...YES! He did. He definitely made Satan, though Satan made himself Satan. He rose against the throne of God and was outcast for it, with all of his followers who thought that the limited created could outdo the almighty Creator. God made Lucifer, God made the angels, God gave them some semblance of free will at the outset...I don't know if they were born with a choice to make from the start, and Lucifer saw how cool he was, or if it took "time", in whatever eternal sense we can think about.
A separating factor between Christianity and the rest of the world is that Christians are possibly one of the only religions that claim that man is basically evil, and not basically good. I believe this is true, so on this basis alone, I would follow into Christianity. Of all the other religions I study, man's basic nature doesn't matter in the face of amorality, or man is a good entity, just needs some wheedling to get all the purity out into the open. Christianity denies this. It says we're born evil, and when I look at children and adults alike, I see very little change between the two's attitude of "the world owes me" and "if I don't get what I want, I'll show you." People are evil. Plain and simple.
Christianity doesn't trump us up as better than the rest of the world. Matter of fact, it claims we're no different and shouldn't act as if we're better. But many, many, many do. And that harms the witness of Christianity something terrible.
The only thing that makes Him elevated above us is that He's God. He was born as God, and He died as God, and he came back to life as God. The three days thing...that messes with me. Why three days? Was it just to prove to the rest of the world that this guy's as dead as he's gonna get before he pops out of the ground and says: "Look. I beat Death. I'm going now and I'll be back soon. Watch the skies."
And to answer your allegations of God creating all this...YES! He did. He definitely made Satan, though Satan made himself Satan. He rose against the throne of God and was outcast for it, with all of his followers who thought that the limited created could outdo the almighty Creator. God made Lucifer, God made the angels, God gave them some semblance of free will at the outset...I don't know if they were born with a choice to make from the start, and Lucifer saw how cool he was, or if it took "time", in whatever eternal sense we can think about.
A separating factor between Christianity and the rest of the world is that Christians are possibly one of the only religions that claim that man is basically evil, and not basically good. I believe this is true, so on this basis alone, I would follow into Christianity. Of all the other religions I study, man's basic nature doesn't matter in the face of amorality, or man is a good entity, just needs some wheedling to get all the purity out into the open. Christianity denies this. It says we're born evil, and when I look at children and adults alike, I see very little change between the two's attitude of "the world owes me" and "if I don't get what I want, I'll show you." People are evil. Plain and simple.
Christianity doesn't trump us up as better than the rest of the world. Matter of fact, it claims we're no different and shouldn't act as if we're better. But many, many, many do. And that harms the witness of Christianity something terrible.
What's that line from Dogma? "You people don't celebrate your faith, you mourn it."
Okay - it was about Catholicism, but the point is that the history of mankind's very conglomeration into cities, counties, countries etc are replete with all the the tales of what we've done to sublimate our animalistic tendencies.
How can you look at art, hospitals, charities, music, theatre, cinema etc and claim we're intrinsically evil?
Eon
Okay - it was about Catholicism, but the point is that the history of mankind's very conglomeration into cities, counties, countries etc are replete with all the the tales of what we've done to sublimate our animalistic tendencies.
How can you look at art, hospitals, charities, music, theatre, cinema etc and claim we're intrinsically evil?
Eon
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Quite easily. We can mask evil and make it look funny, awe-inspring, overwhelming, interesting, dramatic, tragic or whatever. We call it a movie nowadays.
Sometimes we call them books. Others, plays. In essence, art is as art does, and art doesn't change.
Look at Giger. Very beautiful work. I love Giger. Yet it's horrific, and disgusting sometimes. It's wonderful! But it's still evil, in some essence. His Biomechanoids are disturbing.
But is bizarreness evil? No. Giger has a dark element to his work, and that makes it evil.
Ray Bradbury writes dark, and generally, has a very negative tale to tell. It makes his works disturbing, evil, again.
However, your proposition, Eon, has a big flaw: it's pointing to a huge picture. And evil is not portrayed in every aspect of life. Though it is prevalent in many. Most people, however, don't like to see evil save as entertainment. They'd rather hot babes, beer, action, and hot babes, beer and action all in one package. That's how we sell. Not by portraying the sick side of human nature.
So by not portraying our evilness, art in its broad sense is also portraying our goodness...so I cannot claim that all things SHOW evil, especially when they are apart from evil or good, amoral in themselves. It is people who are evil. Not necessarily people's creations.
Sometimes we call them books. Others, plays. In essence, art is as art does, and art doesn't change.
Look at Giger. Very beautiful work. I love Giger. Yet it's horrific, and disgusting sometimes. It's wonderful! But it's still evil, in some essence. His Biomechanoids are disturbing.
But is bizarreness evil? No. Giger has a dark element to his work, and that makes it evil.
Ray Bradbury writes dark, and generally, has a very negative tale to tell. It makes his works disturbing, evil, again.
However, your proposition, Eon, has a big flaw: it's pointing to a huge picture. And evil is not portrayed in every aspect of life. Though it is prevalent in many. Most people, however, don't like to see evil save as entertainment. They'd rather hot babes, beer, action, and hot babes, beer and action all in one package. That's how we sell. Not by portraying the sick side of human nature.
So by not portraying our evilness, art in its broad sense is also portraying our goodness...so I cannot claim that all things SHOW evil, especially when they are apart from evil or good, amoral in themselves. It is people who are evil. Not necessarily people's creations.
Wow - you honestly believe that you are evil? What's the damn point then?
If we're all irredeemably foul, then I don't understand why Christian's bother to linger on this plane at all. It sounds like the best thing you can do for a baby is smother it at birth.
Except that you, and I, and everyone else here knows that's not so.
Eon
If we're all irredeemably foul, then I don't understand why Christian's bother to linger on this plane at all. It sounds like the best thing you can do for a baby is smother it at birth.
Except that you, and I, and everyone else here knows that's not so.
Eon
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"Removing onself from this world" is an idea that appealed to Paul as well...and not such a one that seems so extravagantly bizarre provided one is of the same mindset as I am, that being, this world shot itself to hell in a handbasket, it's damned anyways, so why do I care about it anymore? I mean, geez, many more people can get witnessed to, even if I'm not around, so what great change am I making, save to perhaps a select few?
The thing is...I don't know my own destiny. But if I woke up tomorrow, got in the car, and was dismembered by some freak vortex that spawned in my car seat, then I guess that woulda been my destiny. If not, then I'd have to question God's authority on this world. And if I could do that, well, I probably wouldn't be pimpin it with da Big G and his son JC.
We're all evil. So what? We can do good here. You seem to have neglected that point I made. We're evil innately, and yet we can smother that impulse with other actions and deeds. It's work, but it's possible. Which is why most people don't just kill the kids as soon as they squirm out, or make it impossible for anyone to have kids in this world again.
We're here to try even if the end result is this terrarium of ludacrisy ending up in a big bad batch of flames and darkness or whatever it is hell's going to end up being.
The thing is...I don't know my own destiny. But if I woke up tomorrow, got in the car, and was dismembered by some freak vortex that spawned in my car seat, then I guess that woulda been my destiny. If not, then I'd have to question God's authority on this world. And if I could do that, well, I probably wouldn't be pimpin it with da Big G and his son JC.
We're all evil. So what? We can do good here. You seem to have neglected that point I made. We're evil innately, and yet we can smother that impulse with other actions and deeds. It's work, but it's possible. Which is why most people don't just kill the kids as soon as they squirm out, or make it impossible for anyone to have kids in this world again.
We're here to try even if the end result is this terrarium of ludacrisy ending up in a big bad batch of flames and darkness or whatever it is hell's going to end up being.