Does it matter what is said here?

[shadetaker]

Quote[/b] ]So even though they are following Christ wholeheartedly and with good intentions, they are in error?

but they aren't. perhaps i should have clarified. for one thing in the eyes of many catholics the virgin mary is more important than christ is. and they follow the rituals and such because they stumble on the same thing that so many other people struggle with; they want to earn their salvation and not turn to jesus for it. i believe that the big issue is that many people (and i pray this won't hinder you) struggle with is that they want to earn their way to heaven because turning to jesus for salvation makes them feel powerless. self-reliance is generally not a bad thing but it is a fatal error to trust yourself for your own salvation i must emphasize that not all catholics are like this though

 

[shadetaker]

Well DV if you get this i felt i should apologize. earlier i rather accused you of going around trying to disprove the bible and god and whatnot. I was wrong. You are searching for the truth and i hope you find it. i must go now but in closing i would like to add that some of the strongest evidence fro gods exstence is the change that believers undergo upon salvation. if you have any friends or loved ones who become christians please try to observe any changes in thier life you might be surprised. i hope to talk to you again sometime. may god reveal himself to you

 

[SLNT_FIR]

woo hoo!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (shadetaker @ Oct. 17 2004,9:07)]Well DV if you get this i felt i should apologize. earlier i rather accused you of going around trying to disprove the bible and god and whatnot. I was wrong. You are searching for the truth and i hope you find it. i must go now but in closing i would like to add that some of the strongest evidence fro gods exstence is the change that believers undergo upon salvation. if you have any friends or loved ones who become christians please try to observe any changes in thier life you might be surprised. i hope to talk to you again sometime. may god reveal himself to you

Don't worry about it.

This is one of the reasons that I posted the Atheist Misconception thread, which I hope you will read.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (shadetaker @ Oct. 17 2004,8:43)]

Quote[/b] ]So even though they are following Christ wholeheartedly and with good intentions, they are in error?

but they aren't. perhaps i should have clarified. for one thing in the eyes of many catholics the virgin mary is more important than christ is. and they follow the rituals and such because they stumble on the same thing that so many other people struggle with; they want to earn their salvation and not turn to jesus for it. i believe that the big issue is that many people (and i pray this won't hinder you) struggle with is that they want to earn their way to heaven because turning to jesus for salvation makes them feel powerless. self-reliance is generally not a bad thing but it is a fatal error to trust yourself for your own salvation i must emphasize that not all catholics are like this though

It sounds like they have reasons for thinking that way though. Examples:

Quote[/b] ]Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - many Protestants believe that, in order to be saved, one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. They believe that good works are not necessary for salvation, but simply flow from those who are already saved. But these verses teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 - we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus orders the Ephesians who have strong faith to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus acknowledges the good works of the Thyatirans, except their tolerance of Jezebel and is thus not satisfied.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus will give each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:1-2,8,15 - again, Jesus is judging our works from heaven. We choose to apply Christ's merits to our own lives.

Rev. 14:13, 20:12 - we are judged by the Lord by our works. Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

On the other hand, you have this, which is from Cavalry Chapel:

Quote[/b] ]"Jesus, I know that I have sinned against you. I know the truth is that I have sinned by my own choice, and I am the one responsible for it. I know that I have earned punishment from You, and that the fair punishment would be death. Jesus, I believe that You died in my place. Forgive me for my sin. I cannot cover or take my sin away, I am relying totally and only on You. You are the only one who can save me. I reject my sin, I turn away from it, I repent. Come into my life, take away my sin, and show me how to live my life in a way that is right and pleasing to You."
If you have prayed this, YOU ARE SAVED! You are now completely forgiven, a new creation, innocent in the eyes of God. Welcome to the family of God!

Those are two completely opposite viewpoints.

Look at it from my position, as someone on the outside looking in. Christianity, as a whole, is an ununified mess. If Christians can't agree on core topics, how are non-theists supposed to figure it out?

One more question...all this means absolutely nothing if you believe in Predestination. What are your views on that?

 

[LionOfJudah]

Most churchs have choosen to over look what would unite them and focus on what divides them. (has to do with non-unity)

While Catholics and Protestants, both miss the mark at times. Catholics have it right that we do need to have works, but fail to realize that it is not works alone that saves us. If you want to accept the Bible like both groups do then we all have to accept faith with out works is dead.

It is by grace alone we are saved, and because of that our faith should be reflected by our deeds, something many many christians, including myself fail at times to do. Just as you can not take any one person or group to represent us all ,DV you should know better, Calvary chapel is by no means right.

just my cents

 

[Dark Virtue]

I wasn't suggesting they were right, I was showing two ends of the spectrum.

Why do you think that Catholics believe in works only?

I would think Faith is a given for any Christian.

 

[shadetaker]

arrgh! i had an answer all written out and than i accidentally exited!

 

[Dark Virtue]

I hate it when I do that

Take a look at this article by Peter Kreeft. It seems to suggest that Catholics believe in both Faith and Works.

Quote[/b] ]Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love. That is clearly the biblical view, and when Protestants and Catholics who know and believe the Bible discuss the issue sincerely, it is amazing how quickly and easily they come to understand and agree with each other on this, the fundamental divisive issue. Try it some time with your Protestant friend.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us.

The split of the Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic discovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book. It can end only when both Protestants and Catholics do the same thing today and understand what they are doing: discovering a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

LINK

 

[shadetaker]

Quote[/b] ]Why do you think that Catholics believe in works only?

my personal opinion is that they dont like to give up control. as long as works are all that counts they feel they have complete control over their lives. they figure ok i can sin today and make up for it by doing a good work and going to confessional tommorow. unfortunatly for them a single sin in gods eyes is enough to outway all the good they may do. and as i said before only they can repent of thier sins and not some preist. though there are virtues of confessing your sin before others its just that only god can actually give forgiveness

i must emphasize that all ive said so far are my personal beliefs im confident about most of them but i have to say that if anything i say contradicts the bible you must accept what teh bible says not hwat i say. and be sure to take the bible in context otherwise it may sound self contradicting.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Bible contradictions are a topic for another day

Read the post above, it may cause you to change your views of Catholics.

 

[shadetaker]

Quote[/b] ]Take a look at this article by Peter Kreeft. It seems to suggest that Catholics believe in both Faith and Works.

It bears mentioning that caatholic rituals and such are not without any merit. but as i think you can see from looking at that exerpt that actual salvation come though faith and faith though grace. Peter Kreeft is certainly correct when he asserts that faith is the key to salvation. i do not belive that he is correct in his claim that reunifiction will only occur when protestants accept catholic doctrine. Indeed while it is entirely possible to grow in the understanding of the lord through catholicism i would have to sharply disagree with his claim that catholicism hold the key to the higher levels of a relationship with god. its also important to note that the council of trent to which he reffered was what spit the two factions apart. there they denounced some of the biblical principals that make us protestants. but worse they denounced justification by faith alone. justification is the next step after salvation and is the change that a person undergoes becoming more like christ.

 

[shadetaker]

you posted that article while i was writing my reply to the previous question. (sigh) right now im still a rather slow typer but oh well.

 

[shadetaker]

well its been a pleasure talking ot you DV. You have raised some good questions and i hope my answers have been helpful to you. hopefully we can discuss some more later. i really must go to bed now but before i go i most comment on one last thing. Life is the greatest of uncertainties. as much as i would hate for you to rush into a realtionship with christ i feel i must assert the fact that death can come without warning and when it does your fate is sealed. i hope that you will come to know the savior's unfathomable love in your life.

P.S. i would not be surprised if you already have but why dont you try asking god to reveal himself tonight he just might.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

hey shadetaker, use jumpstart typing 2.0. i did when i was in second grade. now i normally type around 50 wpm but if i am "warmed up" i do about 60 wpm.

use it! it's kinda kiddy but it WORKS!!!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (shadetaker @ Oct. 17 2004,10:47)]well its been a pleasure talking ot you DV. You have raised some good questions and i hope my answers have been helpful to you. hopefully we can discuss some more later. i really must go to bed now but before i go i most comment on one last thing. Life is the greatest of uncertainties. as much as i would hate for you to rush into a realtionship with christ i feel i must assert the fact that death can come without warning and when it does your fate is sealed. i hope that you will come to know the savior's unfathomable love in your life.

P.S. i would not be surprised if you already have but why dont you try asking god to reveal himself tonight he just might.

Thanks

I have asked.

I was Christian at one time, and a darn good one I might add.

But God never showed Himself to me, nor did I see His presence around me.

I asked. I prayed. Nothing.

This was not an overnight decision, but one that was years in the making.

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

Blessed is he who believes without seeing.

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

For some reason, it says DV was the last person to post here.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hmm, my posts won't show up in this thread.

There we go.

I had originally said, "Blessed is he who believes without seeing....because there is no proof to see."

 

[Kidan]

Of course if there was iron-clad proof, what then would be the point of faith?