Does it matter what is said here?

[Jim]

LOL and I suppose

Quote[/b] ]as far as God is concerned I am a saint.

isn't breaking the Deadly Sin of Pride, is it?

 

[Rithkil]

Quote[/b] ]Without conceit, I can say I am a good person. I dislike hurting people, I feel guilty when I upset or hurt someone else, I would never dream of killing anybody.

I do not need a threat or a notion of eternal paradise to do good. I do good because I feel someone needs a break. Because someone needs cheered up. Because it's the right thing to do. Whatever.

I have no reason besides that ever-elusive reward-punishment waiting for me after death. To believe my fate can be altered, not by increasing my goodness, but by subsribing to your particular brand of faith, would be conceited on my part.

Sorry. Virtue is it's own reward. As long as I help out and make the few people I meet happy, that's enough for me.

There are plenty of good people out there Jim. You do have a motivation. Figure it out. We Christians do it for Christ. What he has done to us, we will do to others.

Increasing your goodness? That sounds really absurd. If everybody was ensured a perfect eternity because we acted good, there would be alot of bad people up there. We are never complete or completely good without Jesus. He is the only hope we have to be ensured a perfect eternity. And you do not 'subscribe' as you say it. It is a choice you make to follow Jesus Christ. To accept that he died for you. There is much more to Christianity than athiests stereotype us with. You picture us as ignorant, stubborn group of people who try to convert you so we have one more member in the 'club'. That is the wrong picture.

 

[shadetaker]

How about this:

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

All the good you may do and all the sins you may resist mean nothing if God is not in your life.

1 john 1:9 if we confess our sins, he (god) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness

 

[Rithkil]

My point exactly

 

[Jim]

Quote[/b] ]There are plenty of good people out there Jim. You do have a motivation. Figure it out. We Christians do it for Christ. What he has done to us, we will do to others.

You do it for Christ. I respect faith, but I do it for people who need goodness.

Quote[/b] ]Increasing your goodness? That sounds really absurd. If everybody was ensured a perfect eternity because we acted good, there would be alot of bad people up there. We are never complete or completely good without Jesus. He is the only hope we have to be ensured a perfect eternity. And you do not 'subscribe' as you say it. It is a choice you make to follow Jesus Christ. To accept that he died for you. There is much more to Christianity than athiests stereotype us with. You picture us as ignorant, stubborn group of people who try to convert you so we have one more member in the 'club'. That is the wrong picture.

To make a point abundantly clear, I NEVER believe anybody with faith to be ignorant, stubborn etc. I had it myself.

I'm not sure I get you, but are you saying that Jesus is prerequisite for goodness? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

If that is indeed your point, I couldn't disagree more. Religious faith has never been a requirement for goodness. I don't believe in God, yet I feel compelled to help when I see people suffering. I feel terrible when I do something wrong. I am happy when I make someone esle happy. What is this divine transformation people go through when they believe that suddenly makes all this go from worthless to worthwhile?

Quote[/b] ]He is the only hope we have to be ensured a perfect eternity

So why are the Jews, Moslems, who all worship God, many with much fervour, essentially told "Get to..."? I thought they all believed they are the only way to paradise.

 

[shadetaker]

also as for the saints bit it doesnt just apply to saint Peter or saint Mark ect. it also means just any christian:

Webster college dictionary: 4a) in the new testament any christian

 

[Rithkil]

Quote[/b] ]You do it for Christ. I respect faith, but I do it for people who need goodness.

See, you do have motivation.

Quote[/b] ]To make a point abundantly clear, I NEVER believe anybody with faith to be ignorant, stubborn etc. I had it myself.

I'm not sure I get you, but are you saying that Jesus is prerequisite for goodness? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

If that is indeed your point, I couldn't disagree more. Religious faith has never been a requirement for goodness. I don't believe in God, yet I feel compelled to help when I see people suffering. I feel terrible when I do something wrong. I am happy when I make someone esle happy. What is this divine transformation people go through when they believe that suddenly makes all this go from worthless to worthwhile?

I know you have never said that. Most athiests and many other people stereotype us Christians as I just explained. DV has gone a little in that direction.

No, I'm not saying that. No matter how much GOOD you do, it won't amount to ANYTHING without Jesus.

I agree. Anybody can do good. No matter what religious background or no religious background. It won't mean anything without Jesus when the time comes. That is what I'm saying.

Quote[/b] ]So why are the Jews, Moslems, who all worship God, many with much fervour, essentially told "Get to..."? I thought they all believed they are the only way to paradise.

Not exactly. Christianity came off of Judaism and can be proven flase just as much as Christianity. However, Christians believe that the Messiah has already come but Jews believe he is yet to come to relieve them from the opression. Muslims do not have a happy ending. Their belief is how you kill yourself for your religion. 9-11 attacks for example. Suicide (which is essentially what that is) and murder are illegal in law and scripture. That is not paradise for me. That would be a horrible after-life.

 

[Jim]

Quote[/b] ]I agree. Anybody can do good. No matter what religious background or no religious background. It won't mean anything without Jesus when the time comes. That is what I'm saying.

But where we disagree is why a non-believer is condemned for being good for it's own sake, while a believer is saved for doing it for their own salvation. I know not everyone does, but in the end, isn't that dishonest motivation?

It strikes me as somewhat unfair. A person can be charitable enough to volunteer to work with orphans in Africa. Yet that same person would be overshadowed by a believer who gives to charity occasionally, goes to church and generally acts like a normal human being. Why shoult the latter be more deserving than the former?

 

[shadetaker]

The difference between the Christian faith and all other religions is that Christianity is the only one that is faith oriented. All others, be they Muslim, Budhist or even some that resemble Christianity such as Mormonism, they all require some good works out of you. On the otherhand the only requisite of being a christian is repentance and faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me

The reason we as Christians strive to do good works and such is because it makes God happy and in turn makes us happy

 

[Jim]

Quote[/b] ]The difference between the Christian faith and all other religions is that Christianity is the only one that is faith oriented. All others, be they Muslim, Budhist or even some that resemble Christianity such as Mormonism, they all require some good works out of you. On the otherhand the only requisite of being a christian is repentance and faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

and that's a good thing?

Quote[/b] ]The reason we as Christians strive to do good works and such is because it makes God happy and in turn makes us happy

I'm not doubting your good intentions. But isn't the ultimate motivation of faith reward? Why is being good to get into heaven more noble than being good because it is something you want to do? Why is refusing sin better if you have the proverbial candy at the end to motivate you better than refusing sin because you feel it is wrong?

 

[shadetaker]

(sigh)

did you not get what i just said? We don't do good works to get to heaven. We dont need to. we do them cus it pleases God. pleasing GOd and recieving salvation are NOT the same. salvation is a gift it can only be recieved never earned. Didnt you see the verse i posted a few replies up? All our righteous deeds our like filthy rags before god. When Jesus died he did it for our sake yours too. You see God is perfect. So perfect in fact that the slightest sin is an abhorrance before him. So much so in fact that we all deserve hell for just one sin. I deserver and you do too. Now at this point god probably doesnt sound very merciful to you. Well thats somewhat understandable considering that gods ways are far beyond those of mere men. but God is indeed still merciful. its why he sent Jesus. Now i assume you're familliar with the virgin birth so ill not go in that. But jesus was concieved of the holy spirit ( one of Gods three forms) and beacuse of that he did not inherrit the sin nature that every other human does. He was the only sinless person to ever live. That is why he had to die. In gods eyes only blood can cover sins and up until jesus that blood came from a lamb. the sin was (seriously) placed on the lamb (which was sinless) and when the lamb was killed the sin died with it. it was the same way wiht jesus. god placed every sin ever comitted on jesus and when he died so did the sin. if we repent our sins and believe i his sacrifice than god forgets our sin and to him it is gone forever. you can never lose you salvation after that. with our salvation life takes on a new meaning. we no longer live for ourselves but we serve god. the reason we do good works is so that god may be glorified though our lives. unfortunatly we aren't perfect by any means thus we must always be on out guard to be sure that our behavior is a good witness to others. thus the ultimate reason we do good works is not for ourselves but so that others may come to know god and have a relationship with him

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]The difference between the Christian faith and all other religions is that Christianity is the only one that is faith oriented. All others, be they Muslim, Budhist or even some that resemble Christianity such as Mormonism, they all require some good works out of you. On the otherhand the only requisite of being a christian is repentance and faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

Salvation is by faith only: Romans 3:28: "... man is justified by faith without the [necessity of] deeds of the law."

Salvation is by works and faith: James 2:24: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Salvation is by works only: Matthew 25:34-45: "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels..."

Salvation by faith motivated by love: Galatians 5:6: "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Salvation is pre-determined; we cannot influence our own salvation: John Calvin: "God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation."

Salvation is by baptism: Nicene Creed: "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

Salvation by special case: The Westminster Confession of Faith: "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." [The document provides salvation for selected infants who die, and for persons who are sufficiently mentally challenged to not be able to understand the Gospel.

No non-Christians will be saved: Rev 20:15: "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

All will be saved: "The idea that Jesus is the only way to God or that only those who have been washed in the blood of Christ are ever to be listed among the saved, has become anathema and even dangerous in our shrinking world." Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong

You may believe it only takes faith, but there are Christians that believe otherwise. Are they wrong in their fundamental thinking of their belief? If so, what makes them wrong and you right?

 

[shadetaker]

i had hoped that you DV wouldn't notice my posts cus you are quite argumentaive aren't you? well any ways i suppose i must go and debunk all your new arguments than (sigh) this may take a while...  anyways why do you study scripture if you dont believe it?

Quote[/b] ]Salvation is by faith only: Romans 3:28: "... man is justified by faith without the [necessity of] deeds of the law."

thats right. i wish i could have found that verse before you...

Quote[/b] ] Salvation is by works and faith: James 2:24: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

what you obiously dont understand is that justification is not salvation. it is a manifestation of salvation

Ephesians 2:8&9 for by garce you have been saved though faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god not of works lest any man should boast.

Quote[/b] ] Salvation is by works only: Matthew 25:34-45: "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels..."

the inheritance of his kingdom is not salvation it is the rewards of works which are recieved in heaven. if you look the verse you'll see that the righteous do the works without realizing it because it is a manifestation of the spirit within the person. the unrighteous without the spirit are not prone to doing good works because they are not moved by the spirit to do so.

Quote[/b] ] Salvation by faith motivated by love: Galatians 5:6: "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

that refers to our continued faith in christ jesus, indeed faith does not end with salvation. when you enter into a personal relationship with jesus you come to love christ with a love that an unbelier such as yourself cannot comprehend.  faith is not mere intellectual assent but a living trust in gods grace that expresses itself with acts of love

Quote[/b] ] Salvation is pre-determined; we cannot influence our own salvation: John Calvin: "God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation."

thats true but it is not predestined that you will go to hell so much as already known what choice you will make in life. God never sends people to hell he merely affirms their desision that they made in life, wheter they chose him or rejected him

Quote[/b] ]Salvation is by baptism: Nicene Creed: "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

the nicean creed is not biblical baptizism is an expression of faith not a prerequesite for salvation. since you obviously enjoy studying the bible for the (futile) sake of making us look foolish i challenge you to find a verse that (correctly interpreted) supports that belief.

Quote[/b] ]Salvation by special case: The Westminster Confession of Faith: "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." [The document provides salvation for selected infants who die, and for persons who are sufficiently mentally challenged to not be able to understand the Gospel.

that is correct. i didnt cover that earlier because i was trying to save time but yes god regenerates people who are too mentally retarded or too young to not understand the need for salvation. he is a merciful god after all.

Quote[/b] ]No non-Christians will be saved: Rev 20:15: "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

thats absolutly right. unfortunatly that includes you. dont say that god is not fair 'cus some people never hear the gospel for god evidences himself in all creation for as it is written:

Isaiah 6:3 holy, holy, holy, is the lord god almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory

Quote[/b] ] All will be saved: "The idea that Jesus is the only way to God or that only those who have been washed in the blood of Christ are ever to be listed among the saved, has become anathema and even dangerous in our shrinking world." Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong

that is not biblical and foesnt stand up to scipture even you should be able to see that. as you wrote

Quote[/b] ]No non-Christians will be saved: Rev 20:15: "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Bishop John S. Spong is making up his own theology and not basing it on the bible. I doubt he's a true beleiver. once again i challenge you to find a verse in the bible that supports that.

well are you satisfied? none of you argument hold water and i should warn you God doesnt appreciate people who are presented with the salvation message repeatedly but continue to reject it. if you're not going to accept it you should refrain from looking up quotes and scriptures for the sake of arguing with us. its not just disagreable its also dangerous. in closing let me add this:

Isaiah 32:6 For the fool speaks folly, his mind is busy with evil:he practises ungodliness and spreads error concerning the lord; the hungry he leaves hungry and the from teh thirsty he withholds water

 

[LionOfJudah]

DV when it comes down to it faith in Jesus Christ alone is what saves a man, or woman.

Now James goes on to tell us though that this faith is displayed through works. Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong is wrong, yes.

am i saying

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]well are you satisfied? none of you argument hold water and i should warn you God doesnt appreciate people who are presented with the salvation message repeatedly but continue to reject it. if you're not going to accept it you should refrain from looking up quotes and scriptures for the sake of arguing with us. its not just disagreable its also dangerous.

Thanks for your concern, but I'm sure I've crossed that line a long time ago.

I posted those verses, not to be argumentative, nor because I believe in them. I posted them to show that there are Christians that believe differently than you.

I find it tragically humorous that whenever one Christian comes upon another Christian that has a differing viewpoint, they are not considered a "true believer". How sad that is, that so many Christians, who should be united, bicker and fight with each other instead.

To you and LoJ I ask the same question. How does a Christian know when they are "right" in their understanding. What makes your opinion more correct than another Christian's? What makes YOU a "true believer" and makes them not?

 

[LionOfJudah]

that is between them and God, Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong stance that all will go to heaven is not even Biblical. John tells us in Revelation and Jesus in Mat. that some will go to hell.

 

[shadetaker]

i

Quote[/b] ]Thanks for your concern, but I'm sure I've crossed that line a long time ago.

it can only get worse, still no one is beyond salvation.

you're going back to the no absolutes argument just cus other christians believe other things they are not neceesarily right. take mormons; they claim to be christians but a simple observation of their beliefs will show them to be opposed to scripture. thus they are false beliefs. if you can find any verse in the bible that contridict (when interpreted corectly, a study bible helps in that area) what i have said pleas let me know i would hate to hold to false beliefs.

i should also say that i dont resent you for you combativeness and i will (like it or not) be praying fot you

 

[Dark Virtue]

I appreciate your prayers.

However, I am taken aback at your attitude towards me. I have done nothing to you, yet YOU are the one attacking me. How have I been combative towards you?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 17 2004,7:18)]that is between them and God, Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong stance that all will go to heaven is not even Biblical. John tells us in Revelation and Jesus in Mat. that some will go to hell.

Bishop Spong aside, how do you know who is right when you and another Christian have dissenting views?

How do you know that YOU are a "true christian"? What is the definition of a "true christian"?

 

[Genesis1315]

Quote[/b] ]How does a Christian know when they are "right" in their understanding. What makes your opinion more correct than another Christian's? What makes YOU a "true believer" and makes them not?

A Christian knows they are right in their understanding when they can compare it to the Word and match as well as seek council from Elders who preach the Word and receive confirmation from them. It is not necessary that one is a true believer compared to someone else when both are using the Bible as their source. Belief in Christ and salvation are separate from whether or not one's opinion is right, wrong or sideways

Off Topic: Hey, let's just work on the topic at hand instead of reading emotions into the posts that may or may not be there.