Tribulation

Seems like discussion depends on our approach to Revelation. I think I'd go with Slam on this, but didn't read everything. The major thrust of the book has been fulfilled in the destruction of the temple and establishment of the church. Look up the "preterist" approach on the web for more ... The material is rich, profound, and significant.

When he said these things were "at hand" he meant it.
The bible is it's own best commentary. God's word was meant to communicate with man. He said it was "at hand" communicating the very thoughts Jesus expressed when He said ..."this generation will surely not pass away before these things come to pass." He said this in reference to the final destruction of the temple. (70) Which is what the preterist view centers the book of Revelation on.

Daniel was told to "seal it up" for the time was "far off"

John is told not to seal it for the time was "at hand."

Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel are all very important to studying Revelation. There are very few images in the book that are not borrowed from the OT.
The book is layed out like a mosaic of a lot of OT images.

There are four basic schools of interpretation:
Futurist - Look out! It's coming.

Historicist - It prophecies much of history up until our present time. There may still be more to come. This view centers a lot of the book on the corruption of relion by Catholocism.

Spiritualist - Just kind-of parallels everything to our own spiritual warfare. (Eph6)

Preterist - It's a fulfilled prophecy.

I used to be a futurist, then for a period of about five years became a historicist. When I was first presented the preterist view I was pretty turned off because it seemed to play down the relevancy of the writing. After giving some time to reading what some of the preterist commentators had to say, I was floored by how significant, how rich, and how profound the book was.
(I recommend Jim McGuiggan's writings)- This was a huge step for me as having come from the Hal Lindsey "Late Great Planet Earth" camp.
I'm actually more excited about the book of Revelation now than I was before. The book ties all of scripture together so completely and overwhelmingly. It reveals the true depth of what Christ accomplished on the Cross.

What do the books of Genesis through Kings focus on?
-The establishment of God's physical Kingdom.
What was the central theme of the prophets?
The coming Kingdom.
What was the central theme of Jesus' teachings?
The coming Kingdom.
The beauty of Revelation:
The Kingdom has come!

The picture that is painted for me in Revelation is that of the church as the spiritual Israel undergoing the spiritual equivelant to the exodus. The grand theme of scripture is a God moving to establish his kingdom on earth. This is what Jesus came to do. This is what Jesus did. Revelation uses the images expressed throughout scripture in anticipation of this grand event and reveals their consumation. Jerusalem annihilated - the heavenly Jerusalem descends (The church) The physical temple destroyed - God's spiritual tabernacle established in man. (1cor6) Physical Israel suffers loss of identity - Spiritual Israel established forever. (Romans)
 
Being I'm Catholic, I take the church's view which doesn't really fit in with pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib viewpoints. The church is amillenial, so it doesn't really agree with any of the above viewpoints but most closely to post-trib. The first resurrection already happened and we are now living in the millenium that the Protestant churches describe as the 1000 years after Christ's return.

This is a reply from a priest in a Catholic forum (and the Catechism) to a question about Rapture:

The Catholic view of the end times is as follows: There was the Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ. Since then, we are now in the end times, the period of the Church, the time of the reign of Jesus. (He has won the war. The renewal of the world is under way and unstoppable. Nevertheless, his reign is yet to be fulfilled by his return and the subjection of everything to him.) There will come a great tribulation, a final trial or persecution, a final unleashing of evil. Then comes the Second Coming of Christ and final judgement. Lastly, the eternal (fulfilled) reign of Christ. [cf. Catechism nn. 675, 677, etc.]


Here is a link describing what the church believes and where the above was taken.

http://oldforum.catholic.org/discuss....1556587
 
Personally, I hope it's post, so we can kick some Antichrist butt!
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i like the idea of Pre Trib because all the true beleavers and faithful go to heaven for their just rewards, Mid trib because it Gives us a chance to save more people once the see it happening, but i would think that Post is it.
My thoughts are when Jesus comes back he will devide the sheep and the goats like stated before, and that is when him and the angles are going to distroy satan and his demons and the New Jersualam comes to earth, I may be wrong havent read REV in a long time, been studing Romans for teaching, but no matter what the faithfull with always be the same if you lose your faith becuase of the Trib where you ever really saved? If we go through the Trib we can kick the anti christs butt around some (YEAH) and help the others.
 
I seriously hope it's pre-trib. I really wouldn't want to get smashed by an asteroid, or mass-slautered by Antichrist. That'd stink.
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I hear two asteroids will be coming for a near-miss in 2020... Makes you think, doesn't it? I'm also a Left Behind fan, and yes, the second movie is coming out, very soon.
By Grace, ~Matt
 
Hi there MaxX!

Good to see you brother. I've been so busy with work and school lately. I have decided to go back to school and get my BS in Theology. I will be around more often, as God is helping me learn proper time management! ;)
Looking forward to getting back into discussions again...i've missed y'all!
 
Watcher-
I appreciate the link.
I'm afraid that the author refuted something he was very unfamiliar with though.

I was a defender of dispensationalism for quite a while.
I learned that the preterist view appeared to have a greater grasp of Jewish literature and prophecy. I researched the view and discovered that the teachings were concrete. No scripture is danced around and it just makes sense. I praise God for giving me a deeper understanding of the book. What I thought at one time was a view that rendered it irrelevant has now brought an even greater relevancy to my life. Research the view and discover that the book is deeper than headlines.

God's peace,
Geoff
 
That theatre thing with Left Behind never worked. (sarcasm) Hm, I wonder why...
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Cloud Ten has a whole bunch of cool end-times movies I have to see. And they're gonna do a Left Behind TV series starting next year. (Of course not on any major stations! Oh no, we couldn't have CHRISTIAN based programming, now could we?!). That is going to be sweet.

I wish somebody would do a end-times action movie.

"WRATH OF THE LAMB" ?
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (MaxX @ Nov. 18 2002,4:00)]I wish somebody would do a end-times action movie.

"WRATH OF THE LAMB" ?
wink.gif
I saw one with Mr. T in it. I can't remeber the name though...
 
I'm sorry but I will never be able to get past the preterist view that all prophecy has been fullfilled and nothing remains on the prophetic calendar.
 
I'm good with that - I wrestled with the view A WHOLE LOT before adopting it. It is a major paradigm shift but I must say that I was very blessed by the way this view presents the gospel in light of the full spectrum of scripture. Everything began to fit. I didn't force a thing- it all just started to unfold.

I can only compare the Preterist view to one of those goofy pictures that doesn't appear to be a picture at all until you set your focus beyond the print - then a spectacular and complete 3D image appears! This is exactly what happened as I began to switch from a premillenial position to preterism.

As I said- Revelation is deep -I'm sure we'd all agree to that! I don't preach preterism the way I do other issues-there's just to much to cover. It must be studied out from each of the major four angles involved and then a conclusion can be reached.

God bless,
Cuko
 
"I saw one with Mr. T in it. I can't remeber the name though..."

Judgement. I have yet to see it.
 
Maxx--I saw it. it wasn't TOO bad. I like Left Behind better. *has seen judgement, both omega codes, and some other one*

Cuko--i'll gladly admit my own stupidity about the preterist view (i know next to NOTHING about it!! i go to an A/G church, and they believe in a pre-trib view A/G doctrine statement), so is it possible to get a crash course in it, or at least a link for at least the basics? i'mma' ask a few questions anyway, b/c, well...that's how i am! if everything's been fulfilled already...then how come we're not in new jerusalem hanging out with Jesus? or has everything ELSE been done but that, and we're in that time between the millennial and new jerusalem where satan's let out for a lil while before being cast into the lake of fire?? anyway..i'll stop badgering...later!!
 
Great question oj-junkie:

The "New Jerusalem" has indeed come.

Heb 12:22-23
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.

This is right in line with the teachings of such books as Hebrews and Romans.
We (the ecclesia) are:
the true Israel (Romans 9:6)
the true Jews (Romans 2:28)
and the heavenly Jerusalem. (Heb 12/Rev21)

Revelation mentions that the city came as "a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

Eph 5:24-27
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Glad to answer any other quesions you might have but let me recommend some authors:
David Chilton
http://www.freebooks.com/sidefrm2.htm
Get a book: http://www.armageddonbooks.com/post.html

I also recommend Jim McGuiggan.

God's Peace,
Cuko
 
I don't think we're in the end times yet. Not enough false profits, famines, earthquakes in diverse places, no plagues, no judgements. Where's the anti-Christ?
 
As I've indicated previously-
I agree with ccgr that we are not in "end times" as were the Jews and Christians to whom Revelation was written.
 
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