The Trinity

Watcher said:
Show me a Christian that rejects the deity of Christ.

From xenos.org

Mormonism: "The divinity of Jesus is the truth which now requires to be received...the divinity of Jesus and [divinity] of all other noble and saintly souls, insofar as they, too, have been inflamed by a spark of deity---insofar as they, too, can be recognized as manifestations of the Divine."
Christian Science: "The spiritual Christ was infallible; Jesus, as material manhood, was not Christ." "In healing the sick and sinning, Jesus elaborated the fact that the healing effect followed the understanding of the divine Principle and of the Christ-spirit which governed the corporeal Jesus."
Jehovah's Witness: "He was a spirit person, just as "God is a Spirit"; he was a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is; also he was before all others of God's creatures, for he was the first son that Jehovah God brought forth. Hence he is called "the only begotten Son" of God, for God has no partner in bringing forth his first-begotten Son."
The Way: "...The Gospel of John established the truth of God's Word that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, not "God the Son" or 'God Himself'."
The Unification Church: "Historically, Jesus the Messiah came in Adam's place to restore mankind. He was not Deity...it is a great error to think Jesus was God Himself."

You cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ. The deity of Christ is an essential, defining doctrine of the faith. In other words, if you reject an essential or defining doctrine, you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by those doctrines.

According to Merriam Webster, a Christian is defined as: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. You can believe in the teachings of Christ without believing in Christ as god.

I also agree with religioustolerance.org's definition:

Most liberal Christian denominations, secularists, public opinion pollsters, and this web site define "Christian" very broadly as any person or group who sincerely believes themselves to be Christian. Thus, Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox believers, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, United Church members, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc. are all considered Christian. They total about 75% of the North American adult population.
 
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Master~Plan said:
^ thanx watcher


because of your previous statement your going to have to define your view of "christian". This paragraph could mean a couple things according to your definition.

I define a Christian as one who follows Christ and/or the teachings of Christ. You can do both without believing that Christ was a deity.

See the post above for more info.
 
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The examples you listed above, DV, are cults (If you'd like to get into a debate as to why they are heretical cults, I'll be more than happy to discuss in a thread of your choosing). In short, they do not follow the teachings of Scripture.

Again, I showed you clearly where the Scriptures show Jesus' deity...I then showed you where Christ claimed to be God as you requested. I can honestly care less what the Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, and Unitarians have to say--they are wolves in sheeps clothing. Again, their beliefs are heretical and do not follow the Scriptures. In your view they are all Christians, but you and all others that subscribe to this errant point of view do so in ignorance of the truth contained in the Scriptures. Again, you cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ. The deity of Christ is an essential, defining doctrine of the faith (That He taught). If you reject an essential or defining doctrine, you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by those doctrines--end of story. Jesus claimed to be God, the early Church professed Jesus to be God, and the Church itself was built on Jesus' teachings--you cannot deny His teachings and call yourself His disciple, which is the true meaning of the word, Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian

As a noun, Christian is an appellation and moniker deriving from the appellation Christ, which many people associate exclusively with Jesus of Nazareth. The first known usage of this term can be found in the New Testament of the Bible, in Acts 11:26. The term was first used to derogate those known or perceived to be disciples of Christ.

As an adjective, the term may describe an object associated with Christianity. For many this also means to be a member or adherent of one of the organized religious denominations of Christianity. The term Christian means "belonging to Christ" and is derived from the Greek noun Χριστός Khristós which means "anointed one," which is itself a translation of the Hebrew word Moshiach (Hebrew: משיח, also written "Messiah"), (and in Arabic it is pronounced Maseeh مسيح). According to the New Testament, those who followed Jesus as his disciples were first called Christians by those who did not share their faith, in the city of Antioch. Xian or Xtian is another word used to describe Christians and is similar to using Xmas in place of Christmas; the X or Xt used as a contraction for "Christ" ("X" resembles the Greek letter Χ (Chi), the first letter of "Christ" in Greek (Χριστός [Christos]).

The vast majority of those who refer to themselves as Christians are grouped into ecclesial communities called denominations which are separated by the nuances of their respective theologies. The liturgical denominations, including Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, Roman and Eastern Catholicism, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism, along with many constituent components of the reformed traditions of Presbyterianism, Methodism, Moravianism, et al., teach that the title Christian is honorificly bestowed upon those who have received the sacrament of Baptism, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Most of these groups are paedobaptist in their traditions, meaning that they sanction the baptism of infants as well as adults.

For a minority of those who refer to themselves as Christian, the only requirement to be called a Christian is to believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Some Christian denominations require a formal committment to become a member. Other denominations (The Church of Christ, International Churches of Christ, and the Independent Christian Churches) teach that the definition of a Christian is someone who has been baptized as a repenting adult “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” – (Matthew 28:19). For them, adult baptism is the transition from non-Christian to Christian. These varying definitions arise from differences biblical interpretations and differences regarding the authority of scripture in context with tradtion.

A small but significant minority of ecclesiastical groups are often referred to as Christian whose creeds consider Jesus to be theologically significant but not God. Movements along these lines include Jehovah's Witnesses.


Dark Virtue said:
I define a Christian as one who follows Christ and/or the teachings of Christ. You can do both without believing that Christ was a deity
You cannot do both. Again, Jesus taught that He was God. To not follow this teaching is to not follow Christ.
 
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What is the difference between a sect and a cult?

Why is my definition of a Christian (one who follows the teachings of Christ) wrong?
 
Dark Virtue said:
Why is my definition of a Christian (one who follows the teachings of Christ) wrong?

Well, the examples you cited in your post are stellar examples of "so called" Christian denominations that do not follow the teachings of Scripture and are therefore heretical. As I said above, you cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ, which is a clear teaching by Him.
 
Watcher said:
Well, the examples you cited in your post are stellar examples of "so called" Christian denominations that do not follow the teachings of Scripture and are therefore heretical. As I said above, you cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ, which is a clear teaching by Him.

YOU may not think so, but they exist.

They simply do not fulfill YOUR definition of Christian.

What do you think about www.religioustolerance.org's definition?

We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian.
 
It's real simple DV. ReligiousTolerance's definition is inaccurate to say the least. Additionally, RT.org is not the Christian Church.

A Christian is a follower of Christ's teachings, period--it's irrefutable. To deny Christ's teachings is to deny Christianity. I'm not clear as to which part of this you don't understand. The examples you posted to illustrate for us "Christians" that didn't believe in Christ's deity are not Christians at all. The reality is, they do not follow His teachings nor do they follow the teachings in the Scriptures. Therefore, they are not Christians.

Again, let's go back to my initial point:

You cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ. The deity of Christ is an essential, defining doctrine of the faith. In other words, if you reject an essential or defining doctrine, you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by those doctrines.

Just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not make them one.
 
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Watcher said:
It's real simple DV. ReligiousTolerance's definition is inaccurate to say the least. Additionally, RT.org is not the Christian Church.

A Christian is a follower of Christ's teachings, period--it's irrefutable. To deny Christ's teachings is to deny Christianity. I'm not clear as to which part of this you don't understand. The examples you posted to illustrate for us "Christians" that didn't believe in Christ's deity are not Christians at all. The reality is, they do not follow His teachings nor do they follow the teachings in the Scriptures. Therefore, they are not Christians.

Again, let's go back to my initial point:

You cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ. The deity of Christ is an essential, defining doctrine of the faith. In other words, if you reject an essential or defining doctrine, you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by those doctrines.

Just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not make them one.

I must, once again point out, that YOUR definition only fits YOUR particular brand of Christianity. There is NO united Christian Church to form a consensual definition of Christianity. Maybe at one time this could have been so, but no longer, and that original definition has been lost to history. That is why RT.org's definition worked so well in my opinion. I understand that it doesn't fulfill your particular definition. My point has been that while you consider your definition correct, others don't, and vice versa. Why, then, should we accept YOUR definition over another Christian's? How did you attain your knowledge correctly and someone else incorrectly, especially if you are using the same methods?

As I have stated in another thread, doesn't your exclusive definition greatly reduce the number of people that claim themselves Christian? Christianity would no longer be considered the largest religion in the world.
 
Let me break it down for you in its most rudimentary form again. A Christian is a follower of Christ. A Christian follows Christ's teachings. Christ taught that He is God. It's not multiple choice...this is not buffet Christianity. To deny His deity is to deny His teaching. If you deny His teachings, you deny Him...you aren't a Christian if you deny Christ. It's not my definition, it's His.
 
This is from lds.org:

Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:

"We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."

"We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior...the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life."

"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."

How are they not Christian?
 
They deny the deity of Christ, period. Let me give it to you again:


You cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ. The deity of Christ is an essential, defining doctrine of the faith. In other words, if you reject an essential or defining doctrine, you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by those doctrines.
 
I am not making any kind of judgement as to whether someone is saved or not, that's the Lord's judgment. However, if there are Mormons that are saved and truly have a relationship with Jesus Christ, it isn't because of their Church doctrine. The Mormon Church teaches false doctrines that contradict the Scriptures in many places (Such as Jesus was the Archangel Michael) - edit: that's the Jehovah's witnesses that teach that, my mistake.

I am commanded by the Scriptures to discern the doctrines for what they are: doctrines of demons. The Mormons do not believe Jesus is God, end of story. As I've already illustrated for you, this go against Jesus' teaching. You cannot be a Christian and deny a teaching and essesential doctrine such as Christ's deity--one that He taught, and one that the Christian faith is built upon.
 
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