The Trinity

[Eon]

Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons, are you people aware that Her Majesty refers to herself in the third person on state occaisions?

We are most happy to be here....

Doesn't mean there's more than one of her, does it?

 

[Watcher]

There's no biblical support for the Trinity, the verses that allude to it are pretty vague.

This is utterly false. The verses are not vague at all. You need to understand that God is one essence in three persons.

So where is the biblical support for the Trinity?

In many places as we’ll look at below

It looks like the origin for the Trinity began with Constantine and the Council of Nicea. Once the "official" church decided on the Trinity, they enforced it harshly. Speaking against it usually resulted in death.

Oh really? Constantine did exile bishops that refused to condemn Arius’ heretical doctrine, which held that Jesus was created and thus inferior to the Father. But, as far as putting them to death, please document your source for that. On the contrary, he became more lenient and lifted the exiles except for Athanasius whom he considered an obstacle to reconciliation. The earliest usage of the Trinity dates back almost 140 years before Nicea (discussed later).

Even Islam disagrees, "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73)

The Koran disagrees with just about everything in the Bible. What’s the significance here? The Koran was not inspired by God and therefore is errant and fallible.

Keep in mind that the early Christians did NOT believe in the idea of the Trinity. As Alvan Lamson wrote, " . . . The modern doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. . . so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine an absolute blank. They testify, so far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the Son. There is nowhere among these remains a coequal trinity. . . but no un-divided three, -- coequal, infinite, self-existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin.”

First of all, to quote Lamson, who is a Unitarian theologian is about as objective as quoting Benedict XVI to prove that Peter was the first pope. Unitarians don’t believe in the Trinity.

This from Harold Brown, "It is a simple fact and an undeniable historical fact that several major doctrines that now seem central to the Christian Faith – such as the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the nature of Christ – were not present in a full and self-defined generally accepted form until the fourth and fifth centuries. If they are essential today – as all of the orthodox creeds and confessions assert – it must be because they are true. If they are true, then they must always have been true; they cannot have become true in the fourth and fifth century. But if they are both true and essential, how can it be that the early church took centuries to formulate them?"

Brown’s quote by Buzzard is literally a setup. In Brown’s book “Heresies…” he clearly documents evidence of the early Church fathers’ belief in the Trinity, a position he holds. The quote above is completely taken out of context as he goes on to supply evidence for the doctrine. It should also be noted that Brown is a Professor Emeritus of Biblical and Systematic Theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois.

A few quotes to ponder:
New Bible Dictionary 1982"The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."". . . it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."". . . it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formation of it can be found in the Bible, . . .""Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the trinity, . . ."

Nice omissions there, DV. Cleary another out of context misrepresentation of what’s actually there. Why did you leave the rest out???
"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, and, though used by Tertullian in the last decade of the 2nd century, it did not find a place formally in the theology of the Church till the 4th century. (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

What else was left out??? Well let’s see….

1. Scripture does not give us a fully formulated doctrine of the Trinity, but it contains all the elements out of which theology has constructed the doctrine (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

2. The necessity to formulate the doctrine was thrust upon the Church by forces from without, and it was, in particular, its faith in the deity of Christ, and the necessity to defend it, that first compelled the Church to face the duty of formulating a full doctrine of the Trinity for its rule of faith." (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

3. In His disputation with the Jews He claimed that His own Sonship was not simply from David, but from a source that made Him David's Lord, and that it had been so at the very time when David uttered the words (Mt. xxii. 43). This would indicate both His deity and preexistence. (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

4. In the Old Testament: Though the doctrine is not developed in the Old Testament, it is implicit in the divine self disclosure from the very beginning. But in accordance with the historical character or the divine revelation it is presented at first only in a very rudimentary form. this is found not only in isolated passages but interwoven in the entire organism of the Old Testament revelation. The earliest foreshadowing is contained in the narrative of the creation, where Elohim is seen to create by means of Word and Spirit (Gn. i. 3). (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

5. It is thought that Gn. i. 26 ('And God said, Let us make man in our image and after our likeness') implies that a revelation of the Triune God had been given to man when first created, inasmuch as he was to be given the divine fellowship, but that the consciousness was afterwards lost with the loss of his original righteousness. (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

6. The threefold Aaronic blessing (Nu. vi. 24) must also be noted as perhaps the prototype of the New Testament apostolic blessing. (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

7. The apostolic conception of the Holy Ghost and of His relation to the Father and the Son is clear from Acts. Peter, in explaining the phenomenon of Pentecost, represents it as the activity of the Trinity. 'This Jesus ... being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear' (Acts ii. 32, 33). It is not too much to say that the apostolic Church was built upon faith in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. (New Bible Dictionary, J. D. Douglas & F. F. Bruce, Trinity, p 1298)

Exploring The Christian Faith 1992"nowhere in the Bible do we find the doctrine of the trinity clearly formulated""People who are using the King James Version might be inclined to point to I John 5:7 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost' But it is now generally recognized that this verse does not belong to the original text of the letter; it is a later insertion.""The theological formulation took place later, after the days of the apostles.""the doctrine of the trinity is not found in the Bible""The doctrine was to develop along mainly Greek lines"

Another fine example of quote twisting…it’s clear that while the word itself did not exist in the Scriptures, the truth of the matter is that the doctrine can be proven through general statements and allusions and by clearly demonstrating where all three persons of the trinity are recognized as God. To say otherwise is simply irresponsible. Again, to deny the trinity is to deny the deity of Christ. The Bible is emphatically clear on Christ’s divinity (see below).

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting"Eberhard Griesebach, in an acedemic lecture on "Christianity and humanism" delivered in 1938, observed that in its encounter with Greek philosophy Christianity became theology. That was the fall of Christianity. The Problem thus highlighted stems from the fact that traditional orthodoxy, while it claims to find its origins in scripture, in fact contains elements drawn from a synthesis of Scripture and Neo-Platonism. The mingling of Hebrew and Greek thinking set in motion first in the second century by an influx of Hellenism through the Church Fathers, whose theology was colored by the Platonists Plotinus and Porphyry. The effects of the Greek influence are widely recognized by theologians, though they go largely unnoticed by many believers."

Certainly, the early Church fathers and Greek philosophers shared a common language and had contact with one another. The Bible clearly depicts this through Paul’s appeal to Stoic and Aratus to relate the truth about God in Acts 17:28. However, the historical record does in fact show that the Church applied new meaning to Greek ideas. Gerald Bray examined the writings of two prominent Platonist writers, Celsus and Porphyry, and noted that it looked strongly as if Platonism was refashioned to meet the challenge of Christianity, and not the other way around.
The early Church fought to maintain its biblically rooted principles rather than allow Greek philosophical thought to influence Church doctrine. The reality is that most of the heresies that challenged the divinity of Christ were based on Aristotelian and Platonic views. Origen, Tertullian, and Arius each proposed such doctrines, which by the sixth century the Church considered the doctrines heretical.

Jesus Christ is not God 1975 Victor Paul Wierwille"Clearly, historians of church dogma and systematic theologians agree that the idea of a Christian trinity was not a part of the first century church. The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it. So how then did a trinitarian doctrine come about? It gradually evolved and gained momentum in late first, second and third centuries as pagans, who had converted to Christianity, brought to Christianity some of their pagan beliefs and practices."

Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille is the Arian Founder & Leader of a cult called "The Way International,” which rejects the trinity and the deity of Christ. Enough said…

Who is Jesus? Anthony Buzzard". . . we shall find not a hint that Jesus believed himself to be an uncreated being who had existed from eternity. Matthew and Luke trace the origin of Jesus to a special act of creation by God when the Messiah’s conception took place in the womb of Mary. It was this miraculous event which marked the beginning—the genesis, or origin of Jesus of Nazareth"

On the contrary, Jesus is recognized as God:
The attributes of deity. Christ possesses the five attributes, which are uniquely and distinctly divine: eternity, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, and immutability.

1. He is eternal. He was before John (John 1:15), before Abraham (John 8:58), and before the world came into being (John 17:5, 24), but He is “the firstborn of all creation” (Col. 1:15), being in existence “in the beginning” (John 1:1; 1 John 1:1), and, in fact, “from the days of eternity” (Mic. 5:2). And as to the future, He continues forever (Isa. 9:6;Heb. 1:11;13:8). The Father’s communication of life to Him is an eternal process (John 5:26; 1:4).

2. He is omnipresent. He was in heaven while on earth (John 3:13) and is on earth while he is in heaven (Matt. 18:20; 28:20). He fills all (Eph. 1:23).

3. He is omniscient. Jesus knows all things (John 16:30; 21:17). In fact, in Him “are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Col 2:3). Several examples of His omniscience are given in the Gospels. He knew what was in man (John 2:24), and He knew the history of the Samaritan woman (John 4:29), the thoughts of men (Luke 6:8; 11:17), the time and manner of His exit out of this world (Matt. 16:21; John 12:33; 13:1), the one who would betray Him (John 6:70), and the character and termination of the present age (Matt. 24, 25). He knew the Father as no mortal could (Matt. 11:27).

4. He was omnipotent (John 5:19). He is the mighty God (Isa 9:6; Rev. 1:8), he “upholds all things by the word of His power: (Heb. 1:3), and all authority is given to Him (Matt. 28:18). He has power over demons (Mark 5:11-15), disease (Luke 4:38-41), death (Matt. 9:11-25l Luke 7:12-16; John 11:38-44), the elements of nature (Matt. 21:19; John 2:3-11), indeed all things (Matt. 28:18).

5. He is immutable (Heb. 1:12; 13:8). This is true of His plans, promises, and person. But, this does not preclude the possibility of a variety of manifestations.

Documents of the Christian Church 2nd Ed 1963 Henery Bettenson(quotes from Arius and his followers)"If, said he, the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence; hence it is clear that there was a [a time] when the son was not.""The Son of God is from what is not and there was [a time] when he was not; saying also that the Son of God, in virtue of his free will, is capable of evil and good, and calling him a creature and a work."

As noted above, Arius’ teachings are heretical. The question of begetting is rather simple. If one carefully examines the Scriptures, one will see that all the references to Jesus’ being “begotten” refer to His incarnation and birth as a human for His earthly ministry.

Encyclopedia Britannica 1968"The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325. Constantine himself presiding, actively guiding the discussion, and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council. 'of one substance with the father.' Over-awed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them against their inclination. Constantine regarded the decision of Nicaea as divinely inspired. As long as he lived no one dared openly to challenge the creed of Nicaea."

This is hogwash. Constantine did not “propose” the idea of the Trinity. Its Greek form, “Trias” was first used by Theophilus of Antioch in A.D. 181, and its Latin form, Trinitas, by Tertullian in A.D. 220.

Thomas Jefferson sums it up nicely

"No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity . . . Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands of martyrs . . . The Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such person, gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck." -- Thomas Jefferson: Letter to James Smith, Dec. 8, 1822

Thomas Jefferson was a “deist,” and he didn’t believe most of the traditional doctrines. So what is a deism?

Deism, a European religious and philosophical movement, was influential in eighteenth-century American thought. It described a world order based on human reason rather than divine revelation. God was viewed as the "first cause" who had established an ordered universe controlled by immutable laws that functioned without miracles or other divine intervention. Human beings had to rely on reason to know God's existence and their own moral duties. This radical development in religious thought was prompted by new philosophical methods, frustration with doctrinal controversies, new political and social theories, and a revolution in the empirical sciences led by Isaac Newton.

Although deism appealed to the individualism and optimism of many eighteenth-century American political and social thinkers, it was popular only among upper-class intellectuals. American deists ranged from the moderate anticlericism, rational morality, and political liberalism of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin to the much less common militant deism of Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine, who called for an abolition of traditional religion. The one unifying factor in the different versions of deism was a readiness to question traditional revealed religion.

My question, simply, is that if you believe in the Trinity, what is the biblical basis for your belief?

The Scriptures are clear in proclaiming the deity of Christ. To deny the Trinity is to deny Christ’s deity, and to deny Christ’s deity is to deny His saving grace and the price that was paid on Calvary.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Watcher, please don't assume that I twisted quotes to my own ends. The quotes that I used were lifted directly from web sources, if something was left out, it was the author's intent, not mine. Note that I went out of my way to use Christian,and not secular, sources.

This is one of those subjects that is of supreme importance to Christians, but isn't spelled out directly in the Bible. I know, I know, you are argue against that, but we can all agree that there isn't a verse that spells out the idea of a trinity in a clear, concise manner.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

<applauds Watcher>

Thank you for doing the research I don't have time to do.

 

[No_Compromise]

Before Abraham was I AM

Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.

If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father.

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God.

The Son of God, Jesus, has always been. No there's no place in the bible that has the word trinity, but it's clearly obvious there is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And all three are One. If you deny this, you are not a Christian.

 

[PapaToad]

The Scriptures are clear in proclaiming the deity of Christ. To deny the Trinity is to deny Christ’s deity, and to deny Christ’s deity is to deny His saving grace and the price that was paid on Calvary. - Watcher

I am no clearer on my understand that the Lord Jesus Christ is GOd as the Great IAm is God, I know the Lord, I have read the bible, but This discussion swoons my head; but I am no clearer on this distinction of a God head, and would like to understand it, we keep pointing back to this or that, and even some of us Christian disagree

I would like to know if there were three distinct entities, that occupy different space at the same time ;IE: standing at the right hand of the Father, and praying to the father, why then the theatrical production.

Why did the Lord Jesus Christ have to pray to himself? Why did he Call out to himself?

Why did he have to send the Holy Spirit a comforter? And if He had to send him, what was the purpose, it seems redundant to me? There is no need for three, we claim prophecy and the God is not the author of confusion, but here it is confusing and ever?

Why do we use the word trinity, when it is not found in the bible? And if it was so important, why did not our Lord and Savoir explain the three and make it a doctrine in his gospels?

So lets start with Why did Jesus/God, pray to himself? They we of one mind and the same entity, it was only for theatrics’? I seek clarification.

Why is not the doctrine established in bible, much less established thru Jesus’ teachings? Paul mentioned Father Son and Holy Spirit only once? And apparently it was a later addition.

I would like to know please.

 

[Watcher]

Montrez, I should first tell you that the Trinity is not a truth of natural theology but a revelation. Though the word does not appear in the Bible, it had a very early usage (A.D. 181). In Christian theology, the term "trinity" means that there are three eternal distinctions in the one divine essence, know respectively as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three distinctions are three persons, and we may speak of the "tripersonality" of God. We worship the triune God. The Athanasian Creed expresses the trinitarian belief as: "We worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity; we distinguish among the persons, but we do not divide the substance." It goes on to say, "The entire three persons are coeternal and coequal with one another, so that....we worship complete unity in Trinity and Trinity in unity.

To be sure, the doctrine of the trinity is a great mystery. It may appear to some as an intellectual puzzle or a contradiction. However, the doctrine of the trinity, mysterious as it may seem, is not speculation, but revelation. So you might ask what has God revealed about this doctrine in His Word?

A. Intimations in the Old Testament

Although the emphasis of the OT is the unity of God, hints of plurality in the Godhead are not lacking, nor are suggestions that this plurality is a trinity.

It is intersting that God used plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26, 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8) and plural verbs (Gen. 1:26; 11:7) to refer to Himself. The name for God (Elohim) is plural and may imply plurality, though it's uncertain. The plural form is probably used for intensity, rather than for expressing plurality.

More definite indications that this plurality is a trinity are found in the following facts:

1. The Lord is distinguished from the Lord. Gen. 19:24 states, "Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven," and Hosea 1:7 declares, "I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the Lord their God" (cf. Zech. 3:2; 2 Tim. 1:18).

2. The Son is dinstinguished from the Father. The Son speaking through Isaiah the prophet said, "The Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit" (Isa 48:16; cf. Ps. 45:6; Isa. 63:9). Ps. 2:7 reads, "Thou art My Son, today I have begotten Thee." Jesus is not only called the Son of God at the incarnation; He was the Son before He was given (Is. 9:6). "His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity" (Mic. 5:2).

3. The Spirit is also distinguished from God. Gen. 1:1 reads, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Then v. 2 states, "The Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Note also the quotation, "The Lord said, 'My Spirit shall not strive with man forever'" (Gen. 6:3; cf. Num. 27:18; Ps. 51:11; Isa. 40:13; Hag. 2:4).

4. Other such matters as the triple use of "holy" in Isa. 6:3 may imply a trinity (cf. Rev. 4:8), as well as the triple benediction of Num. 6:24-26.

The often recurring phrase "the angel of the Lord," as found in the Old Testament, has special reference to the preincarnate second person of the trinity (also know as a "Christophany"). His appearances in the Old Testament foreshadowed His coming in the flesh. The angel of the Lord is identified with the Lord and yet distinguished from Him. He appeared to Hagar (Gen 16:7-14), Abraham (Gen. 22:11-18), Jacob (Gen. 31:11-13), Moses (Exod. 3:2-5), Israel (Exod. 14:19, Balaam (Num. 22:22-35), Gideon (Judg. 6:11-23), Manoah (Judg. 13:2-25), Elijah (1 Kings 19:5-7), and David (1 Chron. 21:15-17). The angel of the Lord slew 185,000 Assyrians (2 Kings 19:35), stood among the myrtle trees in Zechariah's vision (Zech. 1:11), defended Joshua the high priest against Satan (Zech. 3:1), and was one of the three men who appeared to Abraham (Gen. 18).

In light of the above intimations of the trinity in the Old Testament, we should conclude that the Old Testament contains clear anticipation of the fuller revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament.

B. The Teaching of the New Testament

The doctrine of the trinity is more clearly set forth in the New Testament than the Old Testament. It can be proven along two lines as I suggested earlier: by means of general statements and allusions and by demonstrating that there are three that are recognized as God.

1. General Statements and allusions. Several times the three persons of the trinity are shown together and seemingly are on par with one another. At the baptism of Jesus, the Spirit descended on Him and a voice from God out of Heaven identified Jesus as His beloved Son (Matt. 3:16). Jesus prayed that the Father would send another Comforter (John 14:16). The disciples were told to baptize in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). The three persons of the trinity are associated together in their work (1 Cor. 12:4-6; Eph. 1:3-14; 1 Pet 1:2, 3:18; Rev. 1:4). In addition, the apostolic benediction united the three together (2 Cor. 13:14).

2. The Father is recognized as God. A brief scanning of the New Testament reveals numerous times that the Father is identified as God (John 6:27; Rom. 1:7; Gal. 1:1).

3. The Son is recognized as God. The doctrine of the deity of Christ is crucial to the Christian faith. "What think you of Christ?" is the paramount question in life (Matt. 16:15; 22:42). Surely Jesus Christ is the greatest of all men, but He is infinitely more than mere man. It can be demonstrated that He is God in several ways:

a. The attributes of deity:

Christ possesses the five attributes, which are uniquely and distinctly divine: eternity, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, and immutability.

1. He is eternal. He was before John (John 1:15), before Abraham (John 8:58), and before the world came into being (John 17:5, 24), but He is “the firstborn of all creation” (Col. 1:15), being in existence “in the beginning” (John 1:1; 1 John 1:1), and, in fact, “from the days of eternity” (Mic. 5:2). And as to the future, He continues forever (Isa. 9:6;Heb. 1:11;13:8). The Father’s communication of life to Him is an eternal process (John 5:26; 1:4).

2. He is omnipresent. He was in heaven while on earth (John 3:13) and is on earth while he is in heaven (Matt. 18:20; 28:20). He fills all (Eph. 1:23).

3. He is omniscient. Jesus knows all things (John 16:30; 21:17). In fact, in Him “are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Col 2:3). Several examples of His omniscience are given in the Gospels. He knew what was in man (John 2:24), and He knew the history of the Samaritan woman (John 4:29), the thoughts of men (Luke 6:8; 11:17), the time and manner of His exit out of this world (Matt. 16:21; John 12:33; 13:1), the one who would betray Him (John 6:70), and the character and termination of the present age (Matt. 24, 25). He knew the Father as no mortal could (Matt. 11:27).

4. He was omnipotent (John 5:19). He is the mighty God (Isa 9:6; Rev. 1:8), he “upholds all things by the word of His power: (Heb. 1:3), and all authority is given to Him (Matt. 28:18). He has power over demons (Mark 5:11-15), disease (Luke 4:38-41), death (Matt. 9:11-25l Luke 7:12-16; John 11:38-44), the elements of nature (Matt. 21:19; John 2:3-11), indeed all things (Matt. 28:18).

5. He is immutable (Heb. 1:12; 13:8). This is true of His plans, promises, and person. But, this does not preclude the possibility of a variety of manifestations.

b. The offices of deity. He is the creator (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:10) and the upholder of all things (Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3). Neither accident nor natural law caused the universe to come into existence or keeps the universe in existence and everything has its proper place. This is the work of deity (2 Pet. 3:5-7).

c. The perogatives of deity. Christ forgave sins (Matt. 9:2, 6; Luke 7:47). None of the disciples claimed to have this authority (Matt. 16:19; 18:8; and John 20:23 with Acts 8:20-22 and 1 John 1:9). He will raise the dead in the resurrection (John 5:25-29; 6:39, 54; 11:25). This resurrection will be different from the raising of the three when He was on earth (the widow's son, Luke 7:12-16; Jairus' daughter, Mark 5:35-43; Lazarus, John 11:38-44). In the future, all His saints will be raised; they will be raised and will never die; and they will be raised by Christ's inherent power rather than by the Spirit's power. And, finally, He will execute judgement (John 5:22), that of believers (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10), of the beast and his followers (Rev. 19:15), of the nations (Matt. 25:31; Acts 17:31), of Satan (Gen. 3:15), and of the wicked dead (Acts 10:42; 2 Tim. 4:1; 1 Pet. 4:5).

d. His identification with the Old Testament Jehovah. Things that are in the Old Testament said of Jehovah are in the New Testament said of Christ. He was the creator (Ps. 102:24-27; Heb. 1:10-12), was seen by Isaiah (Isa. 6:1-4; John 12:41), was to be preceded by a forerunner (Isa. 40.3; Matt. 3:3), disciplines His people (Isa. 8:13; 1 Pet. 3:15), is to lead captivity captive (Ps. 68:18; Eph. 4:8), and is to be the object of faith (Joel 2:32, Rom. 10:9, 13).

C. The Holy Spirit is recognized as God

a. He is a person. Before it can be demonstrated that the Holy Spirit is God, it must first be established that He is a person, not a mere influence or divine power. This is done along the following lines:

1. Personal pronouns are used of Him. Though the Greek term for spirit is neuter, Jesus in John 14:26 and 16:13 used the masculine demonstrative pronoun, "He" (that one) of the Holy Spirit.

2. He is called Helper (Comforter). This designation is applied to both the Holy Spirit (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7) and to Christ (John 14:16; 1 John 2:1), and since it expressed personality when applied to Christ, it must also when applied to the Spirit.

3. Personal characteristics are ascribed to Him. He has the three essential elements of personality; intellect (1 Cor. 2:11), sensibilities (Rom. 8:27; 15:30), and will (1 Cor. 12:11).

4. Personal acts are performed by Him. He regenerates (John 3:5), teaches (John 14:26), bears witness (John 15:26), convicts (John 16:8-11), guides into truth (John 16:13), glorifies Christ (John 16:14), calls man into service (Acts 13:2), speaks (Acts 13:2; Rev. 2:7), directs men in service (Acts 16:6), intercedes (Rom. 8:26), searches out (1 Cor. 2:10), and works (1 Cor. 12:11).

5. He relates to the Father and the Son as a person. This is the case in the baptismal formula (Matt. 28:19), in the apostolic benediction (2 Cor. 13:14), and in His office as administrator of the church (1 Cor. 12:4-6; also 1 Pet 1:1; Jude 20).

6. He is susceptible of personal treatment. He can be tempted (Acts 5:9), lied to (Acts 5:3), grieved (Eph. 4:30; Isa. 63:10), resisted (Acts 7:51), insulted (Heb. 10:29), and blasphemed (Matt. 12:31).

7. He is distinguished from His own power (Acts 10:38); Rom. 15:13; 1 Cor. 2:4). All these things prove that the Holy Spirit is a person, not a mere influence.

b. He is deity. He is not, however, merely a person. He is a divine person. This can be shown in several ways. (1) Attributes of deity are affirmed of Him. he is eternal (Heb. 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10; John 14:26; 16:12), omnipotent (Luke 1:35), and omnipresent (Ps. 139:7-10). (2) Works of deity are ascribed to Him, such as creation (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30), regeneration (John 3:5), inspiration of the Scriptures (2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 1:16; 28:25), and raising of the dead (Rom. 8:11). (3) The way in which he is associated with the Father and the Son proves not only His personality, but also His deity, as in the batismal formula (Matt. 28:19), the apostolic benediction (2 Cor. 13:14), and the adminstration of the church (1 Cor. 12:4-6).

As you can see, the Scriptures in fact clearly show us that we worship a triune God. I encourage you to pray and read each Scripture that I have posted for you above. Pray and meditate on this truth and I trust you will have clarity. For God is not the author of confusion, rather He is the God of order. Even in the doctrine of the trinity, His order is clearly seen. Please post or email me with your questions, but again, I encourage you to treat all of this as a Bible study and really dig into the Scriptures and digest every word with prayer and thanksgiving. He WILL speak to you!!!

Blessings, brother!

Watcher

 

[Master~Plan]

^ scholorly stuff watcher, good job

 

[PapaToad]

Thanks Watcher,

It does get clear, but there is much to ponder. Thanks for your time and effoert, And Oh I got questions I will pm you.



I m u s t P o n d e r ,...The head it spins, LOL

 

[kevman4christ]

Trinitarian - Theological?

Hello all at ToJ. This is my first post here so please bare with me. You have all made some VERY good points here on this subject. Please take a moment and read this.

I. THERE IS ONE GOD

A. One God: explicit statements

1. OT: Deut. 4:35, 39: 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20; 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5, 14, 21-22; 46:9

2. NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25

B. There is none like God (in His essence)

1. Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa 86:8; 1 Kgs. 8:23; Isa. 40:18, 25; 44:7; 46:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18

2. Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44

3. Fallen man became "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22

C. There is only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21

D. All other "gods" are therefore false gods (idols), not gods at all: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20

E. Demons, not gods, are the powers behind false worship: Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8

F. How men are meant to be "like God"

1. The image of God indicates that man is to represent God and share His moral character, not that man can be metaphysically like God: Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 1 Cor. 11:7; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10

2. The goal of being like Christ has the following aspects only:

a. Sharing His moral character: 1 John 3:2; Rom. 8:29

b. Being raised with glorified, immortal bodies like His: Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:49

3. Becoming partakers of the divine nature refers again to moral nature ("having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"), not metaphysical nature: 2 Pet. 1:4; see also Heb. 12:10; on the meaning of "partakers," see 1 Cor. 10:18, 20; 2 Cor. 1:17; 1 Pet. 5:1

G. Are mighty or exalted men gods?

1. No Scripture says explicitly that men are gods

2. Powerful, mighty men are explicitly said not to be gods: Ezek. 28:2, 9: Isa. 31:3; 2 Thess. 2:4

3. Men and God are opposite, exclusive categories: Num. 23:19; Isa. 31:3; Ezek. 28:2, 9; Hosea 11:9; Matt. 19:26; John 10:33; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor. 14:2

4. Moses was "as God," not really a god: Ex. 4:16; 7:1

5. Ezek. 32:21 speaks of warriors or soldiers as "mighty gods," but in context they are so regarded by their pagan nations, not by God or Israel; cf. Ezek. 28:2, 9

6. The elohim before whom accused stood in Exodus was God Himself, not judges, as many translations incorrectly render: Ex. 22:8-9, 28: compare Deut. 19:17

7. The use of elohim in Psalm 82, probably in reference to wicked judges, as cited by Jesus in John 10:34-36, does not mean that men really can be gods.

a. It is Asaph, not the Lord, who calls the judges elohim in Psa. 82:1, 6. This is important, even though we agree that Psa. 82 is inspired.

b. Asaph's meaning is not, "Although you are gods, you will die like men" (which is how Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc., read it), but rather, "I called you gods, but in fact you will all die like the men that you really are."

c. The Psalmist was no more saying that wicked judges were truly gods than he was saying that they were truly "sons of the Most High" (v. 6b).

d. Thus, Psa. 82:1 calls the judges elohim in irony. They had quite likely taken their role in judgment (cf. point 5. above) to mean they were elohim, or gods, and Asaph's message is that these so-called gods were mere men who would die under the judgment of the true elohim (vss. 1-2, 7-8).

e. Christ's use of this passage in John 10:34-36 does not negate the above interpretation of Psalm 82.

f. The words, "the Scripture cannot be broken," means "the Scripture cannot go without having some ultimate fulfillment" (cf. John 7:23; Matt. 5:17). Thus Jesus is saying that what the OT judges were called in irony, He is in reality; He does what they could not do, and is what they could never be (see the Adam-Christ contrasts in Rom. 5:12-21 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22, 45 for a similar use of OT Scripture).

g. The clause, "those against whom the word of God came" (John 10:35) shows that this "word" was a word of judgment against the so-called gods; which shows that they were false gods, not really gods at all.

h. Finally, these wicked men were certainly not "godlike" or "divine" by nature, so that in any case the use of elohim to refer to them must be seen as figurative, not literal.

8. Even if men were gods (which they are not), this would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He was God (or "a god," as the Jehovah's Witnesses translate) as a preexistent spirit before creation: John 1:1

H. Are angels gods?

1. No Scripture explicitly states that angels are gods

2. Demonic spirits are not gods, 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8; thus, being "mighty spirits" does not make angels gods

3. Satan is therefore also a false god: 2 Cor. 4:4

4. Psalm 8:5 does not teach that angels are gods.

a. Psa. 8:5 is paraphrased in Heb. 2:7, not quoted literally (cf. Psa. 68:18 with Eph. 4:8). In Psa. 8:5, elohim certainly means God, not angels, since Psa. 8:3-8 parallels Gen. 1:1, 8, 16, 26-28. Note that the Psalmist is speaking the man's exalted place in creation, whereas Hebrews is speaking of the lower place taken by Christ in becoming a man. Thus, Heb. 2:7 may not mean to equate angels with gods at all.

b. Even if Heb. 2:7 does imply that angels are "gods," in the context of Hebrews 1-2 these angels would be those falsely exalted above Christ: Note Heb. 1:6 (which quotes Psa. 97:7, which definitely speaks of "gods" in the sense of false gods); and cf. Col. 2:16 on the problem of the worship of angels

5. Elsewhere in the Psalms angels, if spoken of as gods, are considered false gods: Psa. 29:1; 86:8-10; 89:6; 95:3; 96:4-5; 97:7-9; 135:5; 136:2; 138:1; cf. Ex. 15;11; 18:11; Deut. 10:17; 1 Chr. 16:25; 2 Chr. 2:5

6. Even if angels were gods (which the above shows they are not), that would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He is not an angelic being, but the Son who is worshipped by the angels as their Creator, Lord, and God: Heb. 1:1-13

I. Conclusion: If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature -- all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly -- then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God.



II. THIS ONE GOD IS KNOWN IN THE OT AS JEHOVAH/YAHWEH ("THE LORD")

A. Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 39: Psa. 100:3; etc.

B. Texts where the compound "Jehovah God" (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2-3; 9:26; 24; Ex. 3:15-18; 4:5; 2 Sam. 7:22, 25; etc.

C. Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only el/elohim



III. GOD IS A UNIQUE, INCOMPREHENSIBLE BEING

A. There is only one God, thus unique: see I.A.

B. There is none even like God: see I.B.

C. God cannot be fully comprehended: 1 Cor. 8:2-3

D. God can only be known insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18

E. Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28 Rev. 1:13-16

F. God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench

1. God is separate from the world: Isa. 40:22; Acts 17:24

2. God is contrasted with the world: Psa. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17

3. God created the world: Gen. 1:1; Psa. 33:6; 102:25; Isa. 42:5; 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3



IV. THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST IS GOD

A. Explicit statements: John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; etc.

B. The expression, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ": 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3



V. JESUS CHRIST IS GOD

A. Explicit statements:

1. Isa. 9:6; note 10:21. Trans. which render "mighty hero," etc., are inconsistent in their rendering of 10:21. Also note that Ezek. 32:21 is (a) not in the same context, as is Isa. 10:21, and (b) speaking of false gods, cf. I.G.5. above.

2. John 1:1. Even if Jesus here is called "a god" (NWT), since there is only one God, Jesus is that God. However, the NWT rendering is a mistranslation. Other passages using the Greek word for God (theos) in the same construction are always rendered "God": Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38; John 8:54; Phil. 2:13; Heb. 11:16. Passages in which a shift occurs from ho theos ("the God") to theos ("God") never imply a shift in meaning: Mark 12:27; Luke 20:37-38; John 3:2; 13:3; Rom. 1;21; 1 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 4:10-11.

3. John 1:18. The best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenes, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique," though in the NT always in context of a son or daughter). Even if one translates "only-begotten," the idea is not of a "begotten god" as opposed to an "unbegotten god."

4. John 20:28. Compare Rev. 4:11, where the same construction is used in the plural ("our") instead of the singular ("my"). See also Psa. 35:23. Note that Christ's response indicates that Thomas's acclamation was not wrong. Also note that John 20:17 does show that the Father was Jesus' "God" (due to Jesus becoming a man), but the words "my God" as spoken by Thomas later in the same chapter must mean no less than in v. 17. Thus, what the Father is to Jesus in His humanity, Jesus is to Thomas (and therefore to us as well).

5. Acts 20:28: "the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The variant readings (e.g., "the church of the Lord") show that the original was understood to mean "His own blood," not "the blood of His own [Son]" (since otherwise no one would have thought to change it). Thus, all other renderings are attempts to evade the startling clarity and meaning of this passage.

6. Rom. 9:5. While grammatically this is not the only possible interpretation, the consistent form of doxologies in Scripture, as well as the smoothest reading of the text, supports the identification of Christ as "God" in this verse.

7. Titus 2:13. Grammatically and contextually, this is one of the strongest proof-texts for the deity of Christ. Sharp's first rule, properly understood, proves that the text should be translated "our great God and Savior" (cf. same construction in Luke 20:37; Rev. 1:6; and many other passages). Note also that Paul always uses the word "manifestation" ("appearing") of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 1:10; 4:1, 8.

8. Heb. 1:8. The rendering, "God is your throne," is nonsense -- God is not a throne, He is the one who sits on the throne! Also "God is your throne," if taken to mean God is the source of one's rule, could be said about any angelic ruler -- but Hebrews 1 is arguing that Jesus is superior to the angels.

9. 2 Pet. 1:1. The same construction is used here as in Titus 2:13; see the parallel passage in 2 Pet. 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18.

10. 1 John 5:20. Note that the most obvious antecedent for "this" is Jesus Christ. Also note that the "eternal life" is Christ, as can be seen from 1:2.

B. Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh:

1. Rom. 10:9-13. Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of 10:13 must be the "Lord" of 10:9, 12.

2. Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (vs. 11), i.e., Jehovah.

3. Heb. 1:10. Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation of Psa. 102:25 (cf. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.

4. 1 Pet. 2:3. This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in v. 3 is Jesus.

5. 1 Pet. 3:14-15. These verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.

C. Jesus has the titles of God

1. Titles belonging only to God

a. The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6

b. King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16

2. Titles belonging in the ultimate sense only to God

a. Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Tit. 2:13, cf. v. 10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43:11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim. 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation, Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 21

b. Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11

c. Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8

D. Jesus receives the honors due to God alone

1. Honor: John 5:23

2. Love: Matt. 10:37

3. Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; etc.

4. Worship (proskuneo): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt. 4:10

5. Religious or sacred service (latreuo): Rev. 22:13

6. Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.

E. Jesus does the works of God

1. Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (cf. 21:6 on "beginning"); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24

2. Sustaining the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3

3. Salvation: See C.2.a. above.

4. All of them: John 5:17-29

F. Jesus has all of the incommunicable attributes of God

1. All of them: John 1:1; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3

2. Is self-existent: John 5:26

3. Is unchangeable: Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8

4. Is eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2

5. Is omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11

6. Is omniscient: John 16:30

7. Is incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27



G. Jesus is the Son of God

1. "Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g., "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:17; Eph. 2:1)

2. Whenever "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.), the son possesses the nature of his father

3. Jesus is clearly not the Son of God in a literal sense, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God

4. On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten Son," John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e., the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else)

5. Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above)

6. Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65

7. Jesus is therefore God's Son, not God's creation, God's servant, God's agent, etc. Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.)

H. Objections

1. Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. 8:12-21; 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything -- i.e., that God has always had wisdom.

2. Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. vv. 12-14); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48:14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that v. 16 speaks of the Son as Creator, not creature (cf. E.1. above)

3. Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (arche) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e., Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the arche in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai "rulers" in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21

4. 1 Cor. 11;3; 15:28. Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to the Father

5. John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1;3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples)

6. Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact as God Jesus did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not include Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7)

7. Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God

8. Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19

9. John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g., 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and that to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9

10. 1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g., Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22

11. 1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. v. 5); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord

12. 1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God

13. Deut. 4:12, 15-25: God did not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry



VI. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD

A. The Holy Spirit is equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18

B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God

1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14

2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7

3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

C. Is involved in all of the works of God

1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30

2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35

3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11

4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

D. Is a person

1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person

2. Is the "Helper"

a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2;1; note also that "Helper" (parakletos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons

b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26

c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27

d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ

e. Will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14

3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6

4. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralleled by language used of other persons

a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3;11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4;24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29

b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6

c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 4:10



VII. THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT ARE DISTINCT PERSONS

A. Matt. 28:19

1. "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26.

2. Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongites, etc., argue that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but Holy Spirit is not a person at all; Oneness Pentecostals argue that all three are different offices or roles of one person. Both views are impossible in view of the grammar.

3. Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; compare Gen. 5:2; 11:4; 48:6; and especially 48:16!

4. "Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."

B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19

1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of...."

2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:

a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16

b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16

c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22,48

d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5

e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13

3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God.

C. Father and Son are two persons

1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:2; 2 John 3.

2. Two witnesses; John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; compare Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15.

3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; compare John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21.

4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 14:31; 17:23-26.

5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.

D. Jesus is not God the Father

1. Isa. 9:6. "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father":

a. Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31)

b. Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24)

2. John 10:30

a. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."

b. The first person plural esmen ("are") implies "we," thus two persons.

c. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).

3. John 5:43

a. Oneness interpretation: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means He was the Father because He had the Father's name.

b. Actual meaning: Others come in their own name (or their own authority), but Jesus does not; Jesus comes in His Father’s name (on His Father's authority).

4. John 14:6-11

a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.

b. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not, "I am the Father."

c. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.

5. Colossians 2:9

a. Oneness argument: The Godhead, which is the entire being of God, is in Jesus; Jesus is not the Godhead.

b. Trinitarian interpretation; "Godhead" means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God; thus Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. Since Oneness makes "the Godhead" = the Father, they cannot say that Jesus is "not in the Godhead," since Jesus is in the Father (John 10:38; 14:10, 11;17:21).

E. The Son existed before His incarnation, even before creation.

1. Prov. 30:4. This is not a predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."

2. The Son created all things: see V.E.1.

3. Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1.

4 These statements cannot be dismissed as true in God's foreknowledge.

a. We are all in God's mind before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.

b. To say that all things were created through Christ means He must have existed at creation.

c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.

F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter" (John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1).

2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (John 15:26; 16:7).

3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility (John 16:13) and seek to glorify Jesus (John 16:14).

4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus (Luke 3:22).

6. Texts commonly used to prove that Jesus is the Holy Spirit

a. 2 Cor. 3:17 -- the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus; note Acts 28:25-27 cf. Isa.6:8-10.

b. 1 Cor. 15:45 -- Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."

c. Rom. 8:27,34 -- the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; 1 John 2:1).

d. John 14:18 -- Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.


G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:15; 15:26).

2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us (Rom. 8:26-27).

3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19).

4. Arguments commonly used to prove that the Father is the Holy Spirit.

a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35 -- it is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!

b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Peter 1L2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.



VIII. CONCLUSION: THE BIBLE TEACHES THE TRINITY

A. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture

1. One God

2. The Father is God

3. The Son is God

4. The Holy Spirit is God

5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons

B. The Bible does not forbid using extrabiblical language to define and describe biblical truth.

C. The Bible teaches that "the faith" (which would include the nature of the object of faith, a Triune God) was "delivered once for all to the saints" (Jude 3). Therefore any non-Trinitarian doctrine must be unbiblical.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Question, did Jesus ever say, implicitly, that he was God?

Thanks for that breakdown kev.

I'd like everyone to keep one thing in mind...I am not arguing for or against anything here, I am merely pointing out an inconsistency WITHIN Christianity.

As nice and thorough as kevman's breakdown was, there are Christians that don't follow that line of thought.

I am an objective, outside observer on the issue of religion. Take a look at Christianity from my point of view, Christianity is a horribly fractured religion. Even if I wanted to be Christian, where the heck would I even start? There doesn't seem to be a single topic that has a unified acceptance within Christianity. It's incredibly frustrating to try and understand.

 

[Watcher]

Question, did Jesus ever say, implicitly, that he was God?

The claims of Jesus in the Synoptics:

1. To be the Messiah, the King of the Jews, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah
2. To be the divine, eschatological Son of Man of Daniel 9 (considered blasphemous)
3. To be the UNIQUE Son of God (considered blasphemous)
4. To be Lord of the Sabbath
5. To be able to forgive sins (considered blasphemous)
6. To be an appropriate object of religious faith
7. To be the Heir to God
8. To be greater than King David, Solomon, Jonah, the Temple
9. To be 'owner' of the angels and the Elect
10. To speak eternally binding and existent sayings--own His OWN authority
11. To be "able" to abolish the OT scriptures
12. To be the authoritative interpreter of the OT
13. To be the issue upon which the eternal destinies of humans depend(!)
14. To be worth higher loyalty and commitment that the family
15. To have EXCLUSIVE knowledge of the Father, and the SOLE 'dispenser' of that knowledge
16. To send prophets
17. To be omnipresent
18. To be of equal status with the Father and the Spirit, and to share 'the Name' with them
19. To be able to grant derivative authority over evil spirits
20. To be able to grant kingdom authority IN THE SAME WAY the FATHER does(!)
21. To be "God" visiting them (as promised in the OT messianic prophecies)
22. To be co-operative/interchangeable in some operations with the Spirit
23. To have special knowledge of heavenly events
24. To have ALL authority in HEAVEN
25. To have authority over the Holy Spirit

The above claims are consistently understood as claims to deity and thus deserving the term "blasphemy" by the Sanhedrin/Jewish religious establishment of the day. The Synoptic gospels consistently portray Jesus as deity. In fact, the entire New Testament supports this truth wholeheartedly. The references are too numerous to continue to list them here and the above examples should be sufficient.

 

[Dark Virtue]

So the answer is no?

Jesus never said, "I am God"?

 

[Watcher]

Did you miss this one?

21. To be "God" visiting them (as promised in the OT messianic prophecies)

How about the other claims He made that I listed above for you?

It's no secret Jesus claimed to be God, DV...even His enemies understood that:

"For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (John 10:33, NASB).

 

[Dark Virtue]

Could you supply me with some verses that confirm #21?

I understand what you're saying, but you're missing my very simple question. Whether or not Jesus literally said he was God. It's no mystery that others claimed he was God.

Your other points are all fine and dandy, but they don't answer my direct question.

 

[Watcher]

Absolutely...here's an example that's irrefutable:

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Commentary on verses 58 and 59.

8:58 priVn =AbraaVm genevsqai ejgwV eijmiv The meaning of Jesus’ statement is: “Before Abraham came into existence I, the “I AM,” eternally was, am now, and shall be.” Here is an explicit claim to deity, consistent with the Johannine force of ejgwV eijmiv in its fullest (non-predicated) sense. Although each occurrence of the phrase in the Fourth Gospel needs to be examined individually in context to see if an association with Exod 3:14 is present, it seems clear that such is the case at this point—note the response of the Jewish authorities in the following verse.

8:59 The significance of Jesus’ words finally comes home to the Jewish authorities, and they undertake to stone him. This clearly shows that they understood Jesus’ words as a claim to deity, although they did not accept the claim. They were not able to stone Jesus, of course, since no one could touch him before his hour had come.

 

[Master~Plan]

I am an objective, outside observer on the issue of religion. Take a look at Christianity from my point of view, Christianity is a horribly fractured religion. Even if I wanted to be Christian, where the heck would I even start? There doesn't seem to be a single topic that has a unified acceptance within Christianity. It's incredibly frustrating to try and understand

I can think of a few:
Jesus Christ is God
You are not saved by how you live
If you give your life to God, He will save it under his sacrifice
Death in this life is the beginning of eternity
Those who love Jesus follow his commands
The meaning of life is to spread the word/ live for God

I summarized profound deep beliefs in a few lines. Keep in mind this all goes extreemly deep. I wouldn't be suprised if people could name some more beliefs core to all christians. I can back up any of these statements with scripture, and I would argue all christians have the same beliefs on these topics. As far as where to start? you don't start anywhere. You have to follow. You give your life to Jesus Christ because he is God, and follow one step at a time. Some have followed a long time and are still immature, others make huge turn arounds and get it right away.
As for controversy, that goes without saying. There is controversy in any aspect of life. If controversy stops you from persuing something I can't think of anything you could persue...

 

[Dark Virtue]

But that's not true Master. You may THINK all Christians believe that Jesus was/is God, but there are some that don't. The issue of being saved is another topic that Christians dont' agree on. There are many different sects that believe in different paths to salvation. That's why you have so much finger pointing claiming those that disagree with a certain point of view as being "false" Christians, or deluded or just plain wrong.

I understand the pervasiveness of controversy in secular life, but if this religion of yours is being dictated by an omnimax being, shouldn't that be one area where there is NO controversy? Doesn't the bible say that God is not the author of confusion? From the outside looking in, there is a TON of confusion in Christianity. My view of Christianity would be remarkably different if it was ONE, UNIFIED religion. It is not, however, which makes it no better, or worse, or different, than another religion.

 

[Watcher]

You may THINK all Christians believe that Jesus was/is God, but there are some that don't.

Show me a Christian that rejects the deity of Christ.

You cannot be a Christian (a follower of Christ) and reject the deity of Christ. The deity of Christ is an essential, defining doctrine of the faith. In other words, if you reject an essential or defining doctrine, you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by those doctrines.

 

[Master~Plan]

^ thanx watcher

I understand the pervasiveness of controversy in secular life, but if this religion of yours is being dictated by an omnimax being, shouldn't that be one area where there is NO controversy? Doesn't the bible say that God is not the author of confusion? From the outside looking in, there is a TON of confusion in Christianity. My view of Christianity would be remarkably different if it was ONE, UNIFIED religion. It is not, however, which makes it no better, or worse, or different, than another religion.

because of your previous statement your going to have to define your view of "christian". This paragraph could mean a couple things according to your definition.