Satan - an alternative viewpoint.

[Eon]

Okay - serious devil's advocate here. Literally.

God creates the Paradise through his agents, the Angels. One of the things created is pre-fall man. Living a simple life, with no concept of freewill - no moral choices to be made. No understanding.

God commands his Angels to love Him and to also love Man, his favoured creation, and the Angels go out of their way to create a perfect home for man. But man is blissfully unaware of the bounty he receives - he cannot comprehend the good done for him. He is as dumb as any beast.

Lucifer, the morningstar, primarch of Heaven's hosts can no longer bide this iniquity. Lucifer is so frustrated by his inability to balance perfect love and obedience of God and perfect love and nurturing of Man that he is forced to make a choice.

He chooses Man.

He gives mankind the gift of awareness - a gift that man is ill-prepared to choose to recieve or reject because of his lack of awareness. The scandal causes the very Hosts of Heaven to polarise - with fully a third of the Angels siding with Lucifer who they respect and Mankind who they love, over their creator.

God shatters the world in his jealous anger. He sends the host to drive Humanities protectors from them - sealing them in the abyss after a war that twists even the best of them, reducing them to hatefilled demons - and he curses mankind for its unwitting faithlessness. Henceforth the shattered remains of what was paradise will be a gruelling battlefield for mankind. God shatters the minds of men, breaking their fellowship and splitting them into the tribes - denying them common speech and common ground eternally.

But Lucifer he does NOT bind in the abyss. And Lucifer becomes the scourge of mankind - tormenting and tempting it into evil ends. So good a job does the fallen one do that God's wrath is brought down on mankinds unknowing head time and again. Disease. War. Famine. Plague after pestilence after persecution.

Eventually God charges Abaddon, the Destroyer, to open the gates of Hell and lead forth a host to torture mankind for five months. Lucifer is, finally, bound in the pit and Armageddon begins. At the close, when the Host is victorious over the fallen rebels, most of mankind is eternally tormented in a lake of fire.



Now, do you feel the LOVE? Because I don't.

 

[Dark Virtue]

A few things to consider:

• Satan, like Prometheus, gave knowledge to humanity by giving Eve the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did. Satan gave humans true capacity for moral judgment, unlike God, who simply expected everyone to mindlessly obey his orders.
• There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide.
• There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.
• Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.

From: http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml

"O Satan," said Moses, "do you love God?"

He replied, "Every time his love increases toward someone else, my love and devotion increases toward him."

"O Satan," said Moses. "Do you remember him?"

He answered, "I am the one remembered by him, and whom he said 'My curse be upon you!' Do not the 'you' and the 'I' coexist in that curse? I am pledged to loving and yearning. I am in heaven and hell."

"O Satan," said Moses, "how is it that despite your cursed existence, your words are sweet?

"My experiences," replied Satan, "are those of one who has beem tested, Moses. I worshipped God for seven hundred thousand years, craving a better position with him. My craving in devotion brought about my destruction. I stopped craving, and now my remembrance is keener, my devotion sweeter. O Moses, do you know why God caused me to be separated? So that I would not mix with the sincere ones and worship him out of passion or fear or hope or craving."

From: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=sr_8_3/102-9748714-1904963?v=glance&n=507846

 

[kraniac]

That's an interesting quote, and a slightly creepy one. We must remember that Satan did not want a better position with God, he wanted a better position than God. One is self-seeking love and the other is self-seeking jealousy.

 

[Master~Plan]

God creates the Paradise through his agents, the Angels.

no, he created it Himself

Living a simple life, with no concept of freewill - no moral choices to be made. No understanding.

Man had free will. Man had moral choice. All he had to do was not eat of the Tree of Good and Evil. It was simple morals, but we don't know how long he had been in existence. New biengs are given simple morals. As for understanding, that simply comes with age, not sin.

God commands his Angels to love Him and to also love Man, his favoured creation,

Theres really no way of verifying this.

He is as dumb as any beast.

come on now, thats not true no matter how you look at it...

He gives mankind the gift of awareness - a gift that man is ill-prepared to choose to recieve or reject because of his lack of awareness. The scandal causes the very Hosts of Heaven to polarise

Isa. 14:12-14 No, Satan fell for trying to exalt himself above God.

with fully a third of the Angels siding with Lucifer who they respect and Mankind who they love, over their creator.

If they love me so much, why did they feed me a fruit of death? No mention of man even having any contact with angels before he was tricked. If they love man so much, why have they never even bothered to even socialize?

God shatters the world in his jealous anger.

if by "shatter" they mean separate imperfect from perfect, then sure...

He sends the host to drive Humanities protectors from them

protector? fooled me...

breaking their fellowship and splitting them into the tribes

If your even slightly familiar with the Bible, it was our own sin that did this.

So good a job does the fallen one do that God's wrath is brought down on mankinds unknowing head time and again. Disease. War. Famine. Plague after pestilence after persecution.

These are all a result of sin. God told us how to avoid all of this. and I don't understand this part of the story, wasn't Satan and the demons introduced in the story as my loving protector?

Even though I didn't see much wieght in it, thanx for the interesting read.

 

[Master~Plan]

Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil

Either that, or man didn't see evil prior to that act. They both knew because God told them. that part is certain. God did not tell man that if he ate the fruit he would know the difference between good and evil, that is what satan said. All God said was if they ate the fruit, they would die. I go along the side of that they could tell the difference between good and evil the whole time, and thier sin was the first sight of evil. both sides are speculation though. The Bible doesn't say what exactly happened as a result of the fruit. But God is no liar, here we are, dying all over the place

There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being,

There is no record of Satan having the power. He was given a little more power in Job though...

There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else

There is a biblical record of satan single handedly murdering all of man kind, but nope, no orders are given to someone else. I guess if you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself eh?

Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth.

Revelation in no way indicates that God is holding a ceremony of blood. God can tell the future, and has given us glympses of it. The cause from past experience would probably be sin. Revelation is neverless hard to understand.

^that was an interesting book quote too, but it really is not relevant to Christians.

 

[Marcylene]

Sympathy for the Devil?

The plain and simple truth is that God created us for worship. We either choose to worship God or we will find something else to fill this "vacuum" as it has been described. It never ceases to amaze me that those who choose not to believe in God have no problem believing in satan. Yet, the thoughts are age old, and while I don't accuse anyone of such, they have been mimicked before.

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1:9

 

[Dark Virtue]

That's an interesting quote, and a slightly creepy one. We must remember that Satan did not want a better position with God, he wanted a better position than God. One is self-seeking love and the other is self-seeking jealousy.

Would you mind backing that up with verses?

Thanks!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Either that, or man didn't see evil prior to that act. They both knew because God told them. that part is certain. God did not tell man that if he ate the fruit he would know the difference between good and evil, that is what satan said. All God said was if they ate the fruit, they would die. I go along the side of that they could tell the difference between good and evil the whole time, and thier sin was the first sight of evil. both sides are speculation though. The Bible doesn't say what exactly happened as a result of the fruit. But God is no liar, here we are, dying all over the place

The bolded part isn't exactly true is it? Let's be honest now, Gen 2:17 says, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I think that makes a huge difference, because that DOES sound like a lie. Now I wait to see what kind of spin you can put on "in the day"

There is no record of Satan having the power. He was given a little more power in Job though...

Exactly what is the limit to Satan's power then? Come on now, this guy thought he could take on GOD in a fight. You're telling me he couldn't kill a measely human?

There is a biblical record of satan single handedly murdering all of man kind, but nope, no orders are given to someone else. I guess if you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself eh?

Hmm...too bad the job wasn't done right, now was it?

Revelation in no way indicates that God is holding a ceremony of blood. God can tell the future, and has given us glympses of it. The cause from past experience would probably be sin. Revelation is neverless hard to understand.

It's a literary agent. There may not be a literal "ceremony" of blood, but the end times will be pretty bloody now won't it? Not to mention all those people being thrown into the lake of fire. I think you and I can understand it well enough to agree that there will be a bloodbath at the end.

^that was an interesting book quote too, but it really is not relevant to Christians.

Relevant? Yes?

Meaningful? No. It IS fiction after all.

That's like saying the Left Behind series is not relevant to Christians.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sympathy for the Devil?

The plain and simple truth is that God created us for worship. We either choose to worship God or we will find something else to fill this "vacuum" as it has been described. It never ceases to amaze me that those who choose not to believe in God have no problem believing in satan. Yet, the thoughts are age old, and while I don't accuse anyone of such, they have been mimicked before.

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1:9

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe your belief in God is filling some vacuum and not the other way around?

 

[Marcylene]

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe your belief in God is filling some vacuum and not the other way around?

But of course I have! Atheist want to paint Christians as total moronic idiots! Nevertheless, we have all had the same thoughts and questions, we simply come to different conclusions.

 

[Dark Virtue]

But of course I have! Atheist want to paint Christians as total moronic idiots! Nevertheless, we have all had the same thoughts and questions, we simply come to different conclusions.

My my, NOW who is painting with an extremely broad brush?

Exactly who here have I painted as a total moronic idiot?

 

[Marcylene]

Man! Our writings have been graded out of control this week! I stand corrected. That broad brush does have the convenience of covering a lot of area! Many atheist's want...better?

 

[Dark Virtue]

That's another point for me

I, as an atheist and a freethinker, question believing in something without evidence, logic and reason. Do I think you're a moron for believing in something without reason? No. I do, however, question your belief without reason.

 

[Marcylene]

I agree that it takes a step of faith in believing that God exists. I strongly believe that He gives us signs and a heart meant to seek Him to make that faith very real to us. From there, how can believing every Word in The Book brought forth by the Creator of ALL things be anything but logical and reasonable?

 

[Master~Plan]

I think that makes a huge difference, because that DOES sound like a lie. Now I wait to see what kind of spin you can put on "in the day"

heh, I agree it sounds like a lie.I never picked up that one before I was scratching my head. So I brushed off the ol Strongs concordance and looked up the Hebrew word that would translate to "day". Accoring to The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

3117. {2274x}yowm, yome; from an unused root mean. to be hot; a day(as the warm hours), whether lit.(from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or fig.(a space of time defined by an associated term)...
...(2c) Compare Gen 2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of earth when they were created, in the day [beyom] that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens...."(2d)Here "day" refers to the entire period envisioned in the first six days of creation. (3) Another nuance appears in Gen 2:17, where the word represents a "point of time" or "a moment": "But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day[beyom] that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surlely die."

like I said, english translation sounds counterdicting, but using Hebrew terminology it checks out. kind of depressing though that I come off as some guy who puts a spin on words....

Exactly what is the limit to Satan's power then? Come on now, this guy thought he could take on GOD in a fight. You're telling me he couldn't kill a measely human?

good question, I don't know. It scares me too that this guy is obviously extremely cunning, but he thought he could take out God. I have pondered that a lot...

Hmm...too bad the job wasn't done right, now was it?

you lost me, I was talking about Satan murdering the entire world by feeding man the fruit of death.

It's a literary agent. There may not be a literal "ceremony" of blood, but the end times will be pretty bloody now won't it? Not to mention all those people being thrown into the lake of fire. I think you and I can understand it well enough to agree that there will be a bloodbath at the end.

yes, thats what it sounds like. I however reject the thought of the blood bieng some grand ceremony put on by God. that can not be supported by anything.

That's like saying the Left Behind series is not relevant to Christians.

never read it. I'm more of an apologetics reader.(that and computer nerd books )

 

[Dark Virtue]

I thought for sure you'd go the "spiritual" death route

 

[Master~Plan]

I guess you and me both are a couple of loose cannons

 

[Eon]

Okay, first of all - the story does depart from canon in a few places but, I'm sure you'll agree, no more so than any account of a war does when written by the winner.

Some of this is taken from Apocrypha. Some of it is entirely fiction - but it is a VIEWPOINT and it is no less internally consistent than the version you all obviously believe.

I read things like that and ask myself - if it were true, how would I *know*?

 

[Master~Plan]

Okay, first of all - the story does depart from canon in a few places but, I'm sure you'll agree, no more so than any account of a war does when written by the winner.

Some of this is taken from Apocrypha. Some of it is entirely fiction - but it is a VIEWPOINT and it is no less internally consistent than the version you all obviously believe.

I read things like that and ask myself - if it were true, how would I *know*?

truth is not relative. you can't potluck a story and decieve yourself of "knowing" whether it is true or not. Reguardless, God has proved himself to me as no liar. I have found Truth. That being said is all that really matters, now I am going to go off on a philisophical tangent, and if you have nothing better to do with your time you can read it:

If Satan doesn't have the power to "protect" me, but he chose to do so, then I guess that makes him pretty dumb. If God has the ultimate power, and he is a bully, then no one is going to stop him. I am not bullied, and I see no injustice. I have been given a good life which will only get better. Now assuming that God did not want us to have the knowledge of Good and Evil, and Satan threw a wrench in his plans, could God not simply undo what Satan did? I can't picture God saying "darn Satan, whats done is done"... The reason we are still living in sin is because we chose to sin, Satan didn't make us do it.

 

[Eon]

We had no knowledge or understanding of good and evil. Actually - some have said that until that moment of choice there was NO such thing as Good or Evil. One cannot have one without the other, right?

Now - make up your mind Master Plan. This is the fundamental dichotomy of the Christian faith...

Can God be good when he is the author of so much evil?

We've heard other scripture that says - A good man produces good works from his good heart, whilst an evil man produces evil from his evil heart. Unless Lucifers rebellion was wholly unforeseen and unforseeable, then God bears the burden of all the ill he has caused. And if Lucifer's fall and the fall of a third of the host was not foreseen and foreseeable then God is not the all powerful being you believe.

So, which is it? Incompetent or Evil?

I know that sounds harsh - but it is a MAJOR sticking point in the shattering of my own personal faith. If there is a GOOD answer to the question, then I would love to hear it.