Satan - an alternative viewpoint.

Dark Virtue said:
You said that with such ease, but do you even have an inkling of what that means? How is it possible to exist outside of time?
Sort of blows your mind, doesn't it? Mine too. Welcome to the limits of human comprehension. Unfortunately we can't live out here, but it's nice to vacation. :)

Anyway, yes, I have an inkling of what that means. My conclusion requires 2 assumptions, at least one of which is not true in your case.

Assumption 1: God exists and is infinite.
Assumption 2: All dimensions are finite.

I haven't heard arguments for or against the finitude of dimensions, but I assume that at the very least, space is finite, because matter is finite. In other words, we couldn't have an infinitely large object in our spatial universe because we have a finite amount of matter to make up all objects. It's not proof, but it's inductive evidence.

So what follows from these assumptions are that God cannot exist solely within our dimensions, because although finite dimensions can sometimes hold infinite processes (such as convergent infinite series-- for instance, when you drop a bouncing ball), they cannot hold infinite entities. God must be dimensionless.

This also holds true using the ontological definition of God (which I happen to find rather cheesy): God is that which nothing greater than it can be conceived. Well, which is greater: a being described in finite dimensions, or a dimensionless one? Obviously, a dimensionless one.

So God is dimensionless. We cannot comprehend this, but we can make an analogy to something we *slightly* comprehend: this means that God is like dividing by zero. While the technical mathematical definition of division by zero is "undefined," in informal mathematical proof, such as in taking the limits of expressions, we say that dividing by zero yields infinity. We will never be able to divide by zero, so we will never know what it yields. But if you look at a graph with a vertical asymptote, it's pretty clear where it's going.

Back to the original question: How is it possible to exist outside of time?
Time is just a dimension, just as the three dimensions of space. If you're a materialist/naturalist, asking how it is possible to exist outside of time is just like asking how it is possible to exist outside of space. Well, a substantial amount, if not most, modern physicists aren't materialists/naturalists anymore. Take from that anything you like.

Let's break this down a bit farther and specify that God knew EVERYTHING that Satan would do, the fall of man, everything. And yet, he STILL created him. Therefore, God had a REASON for creating him. God INTENDED for Man to fall and he INTENDED Satan to do his, GOD'S, dirty work. Like hiring a hit man so you don't get your hands dirty and you have someone else to blame.
You're using time again: it's not correct to say that God created Satan knowing everything that Satan WOULD do, but that God created all parts of Satan "simultaneously". God created all moments of Satan's existence over time, all "at once". Again, the quotes are because there is no fully apt way of describing events in human language without implying time, but that doesn't mean God is bound by time, it just means that we cannot describe God without implying that He is. This is our limitation, not God's.

Does God really have a reason for creating Satan? I have no idea. But it isn't really fair to cry "Hit Man." Why did God make any of us? I have no idea. I mentioned my personal thoughts on the issue in this post, however. I basically maintain that God created as art.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding really, really nutty right now. I can weird people out sometimes. If I am completely not making sense and you think I've lost my mind or smoked something illegal, just know that what I'm trying to say makes perfect sense to me and possibly nobody else. My uncle, the youth pastor, told me once, "I have a few friends who live 'in the deep end,' but you... you live under the deep end." That's basically what philosophy proves, in the end. We can't make sense of everything.
 
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What if your assumptions are incorrect? What then?

"Assumption 1: God exists and is infinite." You have no proof that God exists, nor do you have proof that he is infinite, yet you are trying to use logic and the scientific method in your argument. Square peg, round hole anyone?

"Assumption 2: All dimensions are finite." Again, unfounded assumption. On what basis are you claiming that time is finite? Einstein claimed time was infinite. Modern day scientists also believe that time is infinite, whether you subscribe to the relational or absolute theories.

"You're using time again: it's not correct to say that God created Satan knowing everything that Satan WOULD do, but that God created all parts of Satan "simultaneously".

Slow down on whatever you're smoking :)

It IS correct to theorize that God knew everything Satan would do before his creation...remember that little thing called omniscience? You are trying to differentiate that bit of omniscience with creating all "parts" of Satan simultaneously? I'm not sure if even YOU know what that means. If you're going to continue this theory (which I believe is horribly flawed) you're going to have to define "parts" as you use in this situation.
 
Was there a question in this thread, or an arguement starter???

We're trying to put words into the mouth of our Creator.

The first 5 books in the Bible were written by a man, who was given DIVINE insight into a time that was before he existed. Also, his vocabulary was no where near as diverse as ours ("The Modern Hebrew Dictionary by Even Shoshan (1970) has about 37.000 entries. I do not know how many are in the more recent dictionary Rav Millim by Yaacov Choueka (1997)." http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2005-May/023594.html, "Join now to search more than 470,000 entries in our Unabridged Dictionary!" http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/noauth/mwlogin.php?return=/?refr=U_mwol_tab ) It is like asking a 3 year old to discribe theoretical physics. You might get the word math out of the child, but most likely it will be in the child's own words.

So, discussing a topic that we only have limited knowledge off and trying to put finite answers to it, doesn't make sense to me.

Satan was an angel that REBELED (Isaiah 14:13-14 (KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:13-14 (MsgB) You said to yourself, "I'll climb to heaven. I'll set my throne over the stars of God. I'll run the assembly of angels that meets on sacred Mount Zaphon. [14] I'll climb to the top of the clouds. I'll take over as King of the Universe!")(rebellion: Pronunciation: ri-'bel-y&n Function: noun 1 : opposition to one in authority or dominance
2 a : open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government b : an instance of such defiance or resistance, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=rebellion ).

Through the Word, God has established HIS authorty over the Universe. The fact that he created it (an no that is not a theory, there is no fact to support otherwise), gives Him complete authority. Just like when a person writes something/copyrights it, they have authority over it.

God's got the copyright on this Universe. He has outlined everything that we need to know through His Word (the Bible), and HE continues to give instruction on that Word, through the Holy Spirit.

My final comment...


His universe, His rules, now its up to us to excercise our FREEWILLS and choose...

Deut. 30:19 (KJV)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deut. 30:19 (MsgB)
I call Heaven and Earth to witness against you today: I place before you Life and Death, Blessing and Curse. Choose life so that you and your children will live.

CHOOSE LIFE!!! God himself said it, I don't know why He set up the universe this way, but He has...
And since He loves us so much He let us know how to choose life...

John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 (MsgB)
Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me.

So, Satan is going to be cast into a firey lake...
Rev. 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev. 20:10 (MsgB)
The Devil who deceived them will be hurled into Lake Fire and Brimstone, joining the Beast and False Prophet, the three in torment around the clock for ages without end.

Why even worry about whether he was an "employee."

We have our own lives to worry about, and without choosing God well, there is a lot coming...
 
This is a hypothetical situation. There is no argument, simply a posited account of events that might be an alternative look.

Nobody questioned that Lucifer rebelled - what I was suggesting was that as he is supposed to be a Celestial being with powers of consciousness and intellect FAR above anything that we can muster, doesn't it concern you that God's number one angel looked at the divine plan and said "No. This is wrong. It's so wrong that EVEN THOUGH I know I can't possibly win against you, I'm going to take a stand against it."

Not only did the Lightbringer decide this but fully a third of the angelic host was so moved by his words and by what they knew of his character that they followed him.

Now WE know that in a straight fight, say Eon vs. God, there's no competion. God doesn't get mussed, doesn't raise a sweat. Not even one breath does the fight last. As intelligent as he has to be, as much of God as he has to know, don't you think Lucifer knew that too? Don't you think the rest of his Host knew that?

So. What was SO important to them that they risked it anyway? Were they trying to get attention, maybe? Did they have an iniquity to raise before the creator that, maybe, they had tried to raise in every other way imaginable? Who knows?

Isn't it even worth considering, for a moment?

I have gone on record as saying that whilst God appearing in a clap of thunder before me could most definitely prove me wrong, the simple fact of his existence would NOT prove him right in my eyes.
 
DV said:
Pay particular interest in how the nature of Satan changes from the OT to the NT to modern day.
um, off the top of my head Satan is limited to Revelation in the NT, and modern day culture has no credible portrayal of satan(fireworks, little nicky etc etc)
kraniac said:
Personal philosophy.
thanx, all I was looking for.
kraniac said:
I assume that at the very least, space is finite
thats quite an assumption
kraniac said:
from these assumptions are that God cannot exist solely within our dimensions
uh oh, look before you leap
Eon said:
So. What was SO important to them that they risked it anyway? Were they trying to get attention, maybe?
The angels had already rebelled before man fell. They did not risk anything, they were already damned. if your going out, why not take as many others out with you eh?:(
 
Eon said:
Isn't it even worth considering, for a moment?

I have gone on record as saying that whilst God appearing in a clap of thunder before me could most definitely prove me wrong, the simple fact of his existence would NOT prove him right in my eyes.

Whether He's right or wrong in your eye's really doesn't matter to Him. Whether He's right or wrong in MY eye's really doesn't matter either.

And even taking a moment to concider the position that you have presented seems (to me) to be a waste of a moment.

HE has already told US how he FEELS about US (that information comes from the Bible). NOW it's up to US to decide whether or not we're going to accept HIS view of US (and receive all the blessings that He wants to give to us for doing so) OR are we going to continue to decide for OURSELVES what our view should be (and accept all the cursings that come with it).

It is black & white, there is no gray area in this discussion.

His Universe, His Rules

Satan's view doesn't matter either. He had his shot, he messed it up. Also, if Satan knew something about God that we don't, why does God continue to pour out blessings to humans even to this day (healings, prophecies, spiritual experiences) that could only come from God?

Also, since the Bible continues to give God's view on this and every other matter, that matters to us, God lets us know...
James 1:17 (KJV)
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:17 (MsgB)
Every desirable and beneficial gift comes out of heaven. The gifts are rivers of light cascading down from the Father of Light. There is nothing deceitful in God, nothing two-faced, nothing fickle.

Eon said:
Lightbringer

Since when has Satan been refer to by this name???
 
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There we must disagree, I think my opinion of God is very important to him. After all - if scripture and dogma are to be believed this world was created for no other reason than to give us something to stand on while we exercise our freewill and decide!

And it takes evidence to make me decide. Because everyone should require proof. Faith is worthless in my opinion - I value TRUST.

And Trust is based on proof. It is earned. It is considered and based upon a value judgement.
 
Eon said:
There we must disagree, I think my opinion of God is very important to him. After all - if scripture and dogma are to be believed this world was created for no other reason than to give us something to stand on while we exercise our freewill and decide!

Obviously Eon, you have not read the Bible...

Eon said:
And it takes evidence to make me decide. Because everyone should require proof. Faith is worthless in my opinion - I value TRUST.

Read "Case for a Creator," by Lee Strobel = all the proof you'll need.

Eon said:
And Trust is based on proof. It is earned. It is considered and based upon a value judgement.

Actually Trust is based on faith. There is nothing in this...
Main Entry: trust
Function: verb
intransitive senses
1 a : to place confidence : DEPEND <trust in God> <trust to luck> b : to be confident : HOPE
2 : to sell or deliver on credit
transitive senses
1 a : to commit or place in one's care or keeping : ENTRUST b : to permit to stay or go or to do something without fear or misgiving
2 a : to rely on the truthfulness or accuracy of : BELIEVE b : to place confidence in : rely on c : to hope or expect confidently
3 : to extend credit to
that says proof is needed.

This is my last comment on this thread...

Satan is a loser, you try and justify what he did, you've joined him.

GOD BLESS TO ALL AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!!!
:D
:D
:D
 
I have indeed read the bible. I simply refused to slavishly believe every word in it as truth against the tide of proof that says otherwise and the misgivings of my heart.

And don't they say that trust is EARNED not given? Fine - okay then if you want to follow the dictionary.com definition of the word, then I'll say that I refuse to blindly place my trust in anyone.

Why do I have problems believing that the book you suggest will adequately answer my problems? I'll see if I can find a free download somewhere though.

So now I've joined Satan? A being I don't even believe exists - or if he does he has no relevance to me? Or are you actually calling me a loser?

I believe I've been tempbanned for less.
 
So now I've joined Satan? A being I don't even believe exists - or if he does he has no relevance to me? Or are you actually calling me a loser?

If you don't beleive that Satan exists then why are you even discussing this issue. I mean don't get yourself worked up or angered over something that "you" are so sure isn't there.

and no he wasn't calling you anything. Don't start putting words in people's mouths just to make yourself look good. Quit assuming that people are out to get you just because you believe (or do not believe) in something.
 
Priceless3110 said:
and no he wasn't calling you anything. Don't start putting words in people's mouths just to make yourself look good.
PastorWirl said:
Satan is a loser, you try and justify what he did, you've joined him.
no actually I'm pretty sure Eon just got called a loser on Satan's side. I think Eon was bieng quite tactful.
 
MasterPlan, please read this...

PastorWirl said:
This is my last comment on this thread...

This thread = "Satan - an alternative viewpoint" (title of thread)(total, in general, overall, etc...)

PastorWirl said:
Satan is a loser, you try and justify what he did, you've joined him.

Please note, no where in that sentence do I include Eon's name at all. Also, Eon did not come out and make justification for Satan, he was presenting a viewpoint on him. Since the above statement is what's called a blanket statment, I used it as a warning for everyone, including yourself.

Eon has no faith in God, so he does not believe in Satan.

However, if Eon did TAKE offense to the statement, I have addressed that privately with him.

MasterPlan, if you still wish to address as you are viewing it, please contact the moderator and address the situation with them. I will submit to the decisions that the moderators come to.

Thank you.
:D
 
Oh I'm sure Gen will be in here sooner or later, she's reliable. :)

For my part, well, I did feel that what you did was call me a loser. I don't actually take offence to it, but reading the words that's how the use of language appears to me.

I'll go into more detail privately, in response to your PM. But not now - it's 3am. :)
 
MasterPlan, if you still wish to address as you are viewing it, please contact the moderator and address the situation with them. I will submit to the decisions that the moderators come to.
I just call em like I see em.

I was more baffled at Priceless3110 response than anything, but this situation doesn't involve me, so good luck with that....
 
I'm going to apologize ahead of time for this post. I am in no way trying to offend anyone.

Master~plan
I'm sorry that you are baffled. But I don't understand why. I have read so many posts that have been twisted and interpreted incorrectly just to make themselves look good. I'm tired of it. If someone wants to address an issue don't change what was said or add to it just to try to justify or make it sound like an attack. Take it like it is.

I mean, come on, it is almost like a bunch of kids whining saying "he called me a name". I wanna say..... read it again. Was your name ever mentioned? Most of us here are adults or at least old enough to act appropriately. So lets quit nitpicking.
 
I wasn't upset. I am very sorry that it came across that way. But we do have to be careful how we read things. Don't just assume that somebody means or is doing something that is not actually stated in the post.


I too am going to leave with this post.
 
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Priceless there's a fine line between reasonable doubt and being disingenous. I don't see how you had a stake vested in this anyway - and you've been far more upset than either of the two parties involved in the insult.

Insinuating a lot of things with your posts, aren't you? Twisting words? Taking things out of context? Trying to justify things or make a themselves look good by misinterpreting?

And then, having waded in with a grab bag of insuinuation and false generalities, you accuse people of not being straight up enough about things, and to call a spade a spade?

Puzzling posts.
 
I need to apologize first to Eon and Masterplan for coming across so harshly. I didn't mean for it to sound as an attack. Not that I didn't mean what I said but I could have put it a bit differently and spoken much sweeter. :)

I do think we have a tendency to take offense and to misinterpret quite a bit here and we need to be very careful. I am learning to give people the benefit of the doubt due to the fact that we can not hear each others tones of voice through a written forum. I have a tendency of telling things like I see it but I also know that when I am wrong I need to take responsibility for my actions.

To be a good ambassador for christ I need to watch my additude and try to write without sounding so offensive.

Please accept my humble apologies for my harshness. I do look forward to posting more with you all.

Dianna
aka Priceless3110
 
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