Satan - an alternative viewpoint.

We had no knowledge or understanding of good and evil.
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Only if you still believe Satan's lie. Satans twist was that they would become like God, knowing good and evil. They already knew it was wrong to eat it because God said it was, so simple logic and reasoning states that they already knew good and evil.
 
Gods_Peon said:
Only if you still believe Satan's lie. Satans twist was that they would become like God, knowing good and evil. They already knew it was wrong to eat it because God said it was, so simple logic and reasoning states that they already knew good and evil.
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According to Genesis 2: 17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If it's a lie then the lie isn't Satan's...
 
Satan is simply doing his job as God's employee.

Why get upset with the employee, when he is simply following the orders of his employer?
 
^ God says if you eat the fruit you die. Satan says if you eat the fruit you will know the diff between good and evil. from what I read, thats what peon was saying.
So, which is it? Incompetent or Evil?
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heh, you wouldn't happen to be a lawyer would you? anyway, God is the author of freewill and life. I can personally testify that God is a good God. (I say this in spite of having a far from perfect life) What we do is not Gods fault because what we do would not be a sin unless God told us not to do it. I'll assume you have heard the love/freewill/sin/etc equation/analogy(which I do agree with btw) and I"ll spare you a page of reading. in my short life I have seen a couple people ask this question because of bad stuff happening to themselves. I'm not posing as Dr. Phil, but I would recommend honestly asking God and see what he tells you. God loves you like a son.
I know bieng some guy on the internet, what I tell you eon, doesn't really matter a heck of a lot, but I felt convicted to share
 
God is omnipotent, isn't he?

Omniscient, no?

Omnipresent, right?

Long before God created Satan he knew everything that he would do: rise against him, take 1/3 of the angels down with him, trick eve as a serpent, precipitated the fall of man, etc, etc.

And yet God STILL creates him. Why? The only logical reason is because Satan had a PURPOSE. God created him for that reason.

How do you think he got in the Garden of Eden???
 
I agree with DV once again. Satan is, for all I can see, an intrument used by God for a greater purpose than we can see. God knew, God could have intervened, but didn't. I'm sure He has one amazing plan...

If even leaders like Cao Cao can use such strategies to amazing effect, man i cant wait to see what God makes of THIS conflict....;)

John Milton's "Paradise Lost" is a fun read kinda related to this issue :)
 
God is omnipotent, isn't he?
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yes, but I am not. I don't know
I can't fathom what time is
I can't fathom what the future is
I can not fathom the mind of God.
I understand these concepts, but practically they escape my understanding, so I am not going to pretend to know about predestination.
How about you, do you know what the future is or time?
 
Master~Plan said:
yes, but I am not. I don't know
I can't fathom what time is
I can't fathom what the future is
I can not fathom the mind of God.
I understand these concepts, but practically they escape my understanding, so I am not going to pretend to know about predestination.
How about you, do you know what the future is or time?
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When did I ever claim to know the future?

I am not omniscient either. But that doesn't mean I can't actually USE my finite intelligence. My reasoning skills have lead me to question Satan's role as employee. Are you saying you CAN'T contemplate that scenario, or that you WON'T?
 
When did I ever claim to know the future?
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woa hey, I wasn't aiming anything at you just making conversation. can't blame you for bieng on your toes though
I am not omniscient either. But that doesn't mean I can't actually USE my finite intelligence. My reasoning skills have lead me to question Satan's role as employee. Are you saying you CAN'T contemplate that scenario, or that you WON'T?
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good stuff, I am saying we can not know everything. or at least we have to know some stuff first, to know the latter. When it comes to Satan, I don't know a whole lot. There are a few things the Bible warns us, but other than that, it doesn't go into detail. To directly answer your question, I don't have enough information to contemplate that scenario, therefore I can't. I picture you rolling your eyes muttering "cop out" but I'm just bieng honest.
 
Regarding the whole predestination issue and God's place in time:

Time is a finite dimension of our universe. God existed before* our universe and existed before* time did. God is necessarily outside of time. To God there is no "before" or "after."

God did not create Satan, knowing that Satan would become evil: God created Satan already defeated. He brought the entire timeline into existence simultaneously.*

We are constantly, involuntarily moving forward in time at a fixed rate (a fixed rate until we start approaching the speed of light, anyway). But God always* sees all of time.

Thus, predestination is only a problem for those of us in time. God did not create you as you are now, or as you were when you were born, or as you will be. God created your life at all points in time all at once.* Your identity, your character, is not completely expressed by who you are right now, but by who you are, have been, and will be.

__________________
*These words indicate an imperfect description of the concept I am trying to convey. Saying that God did or was something "before" or "simultaneously" or "all at once" implies a moment in time, when in fact I mean it to be outside of time. This is where the human mind and human languages fail to grasp or communicate these concepts. We are within time and we cannot relate events without a concept of "this one occurred, and then this one occurred." Simultaneous occurrence is as close as we can come to understanding how God works, but it is not exactly how God works.
 
Oh, so God created this broken angel and his host, and he created the multitude of people who will be burning in that lake of fire as they will be at the end of time.

So you're saying Evil then?
 
Eon said:
According to Genesis 2: 17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
If it's a lie then the lie isn't Satan's...
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God shared something with us that pretty much seals up the whole book for me and makes me trust even when my faith is shaky:
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2
Now, while I would already know this of God in my heart, it stands to reason if there is anything contrary to His Word that I question, it is my understanding and not His Word. He is a God of His Word and The God of the Word.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
Adam and Eve did indeed die. Only those without sin do not have to pay that price. God did not lie.
 
God is necessarily outside of time. To God there is no "before" or "after."
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looks like someone believes they know God's parameters...
God did not create Satan, knowing that Satan would become evil: God created Satan already defeated. He brought the entire timeline into existence simultaneously.*
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yeah, a source would be most helpful.
We are constantly, involuntarily moving forward in time at a fixed rate (a fixed rate until we start approaching the speed of light, anyway).
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do you have any idea what your talking about?
Thus, predestination is only a problem for those of us in time.
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hey, I agree
God created your life at all points in time all at once.* Your identity, your character, is not completely expressed by who you are right now, but by who you are, have been, and will be.
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uh, I can tell your post is well thought out, but I'm just curious if your basing any of this on any outside sources, or is this just personal philosophy? I"m not implying anything wrong with personal philosophy, but the audience needs to know. and
small/quick off topic question for you kraniac, are you a Christian?
 
Eon said:
According to Genesis 2: 17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If it's a lie then the lie isn't Satan's...
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I'm really missing where God says you will gain the knowledge of good and evil. I just don't see it. The passage you are quoting just does not support what your position is.
 
Master~Plan said:
uh, I can tell your post is well thought out, but I'm just curious if your basing any of this on any outside sources, or is this just personal philosophy? and
small/quick off topic question for you kraniac, are you a Christian?
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Personal philosophy. I am a very absent-minded person. I philosophize impulsively, most of my waking hours. I enjoy reading philosophy books but not as much as I like formulating my own ideas.

Regarding my paradigm of God's relationship to time, it is probably best expressed in terms of a Cartesian plane's relationship to a finite line on that plane. The plane touches and surrounds all points on that line but is not limited or defined by either the line or a point on the line. God, the plane, caused a line to exist. We are traveling at a fixed rate through time-- from one end of the line to the other. God is not bound by such restriction. He sees the line all at once, as a single object. All points in time have always existed to Him. If we think of God as being bound by time, we have confined an infinite Being to a finite dimension, which is obviously erroneous.

Yes, I am a Christian. My uncle was Tek7's youth pastor. I do not adhere to any particular denomination, but I do have certain doctrines in common with the RSOF, Charismatics, and Eastern Orthodoxy. I know-- I'm a little weird that way.
 
Gods_Peon said:
I'm really missing where God says you will gain the knowledge of good and evil. I just don't see it. The passage you are quoting just does not support what your position is.
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But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... What do you THINK you gain from eating of that tree?
 
Eon said:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... What do you THINK you gain from eating of that tree?
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That would be an assumption, and a wrong one at that. There is a point in scripture where Satan says "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'" to which Eve didn't say, well, I don't know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil so why should I not take what you are saying as being as good as what God said. No, she corrects the serpent. You can't do that if you are naive to the difference.

It was Satan who said later that Eve would gain the knowledge of good and evil, not God. You are appropriating words to the wrong being. So lets get this straight, God didn't say that this knowledge would be gained, satan did.
 
Master~Plan said:
good stuff, I am saying we can not know everything. or at least we have to know some stuff first, to know the latter. When it comes to Satan, I don't know a whole lot. There are a few things the Bible warns us, but other than that, it doesn't go into detail. To directly answer your question, I don't have enough information to contemplate that scenario, therefore I can't. I picture you rolling your eyes muttering "cop out" but I'm just bieng honest.
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:p

I was doing nothing of the sort. What I AM going to do is ENCOURAGE you. If this is something you don't know about, LEARN ABOUT IT. Pay particular interest in how the nature of Satan changes from the OT to the NT to modern day. You may be surprised.
 
kraniac said:
Time is a finite dimension of our universe. God existed before* our universe and existed before* time did. God is necessarily outside of time. To God there is no "before" or "after."
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You said that with such ease, but do you even have an inkling of what that means? How is it possible to exist outside of time?

God did not create Satan, knowing that Satan would become evil: God created Satan already defeated. He brought the entire timeline into existence simultaneously.*
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Let's break this down a bit farther and specify that God knew EVERYTHING that Satan would do, the fall of man, everything. And yet, he STILL created him. Therefore, God had a REASON for creating him. God INTENDED for Man to fall and he INTENDED Satan to do his, GOD'S, dirty work. Like hiring a hit man so you don't get your hands dirty and you have someone else to blame.
 
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