Religious Healers, lame.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]BUt, if 'magical', someone had cancer, and prayed to god to help that person take cancer away, and worked next day, that person had cancer away, thats just lame.
The cancer could of just died away, or the 'immune' system fought it, or antibodics, or something in the body killed the cancer, or whatever thats facts, not by religious 'miracles'.
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ok, I guess I should go over the story again... The pastor went into the doctors office and got tested for cancer (no 'magical' involvement of getting cancer) The test came out positive, and it was a seriouse case. So bad that the Doctor gave him a short time to live (I think the doctor gave him a time from 8months - 2 years max. I don't remember) If I had to guess what type of cancer I remember, I think it was lung(sp?) cancer, but I"m not positive. Upon hearing this devestating news the pastor and his church prayed earnestly for him to be healed. Upon no cancer treatment and about 3 months later (not the next day...), after taking another test, the same test that found he had a terrible case of cancer that would kill him, came out and said he had no sign of cancer anywhere. So, he has two valid dated tests, the earliest says he has cancer, and is going to die. The later test says there is no sign of cancer. You guys don't know the situation, but your positive it was a minor case of cancer that his body naturally fought off. Well, I know it was a devestating case that would have ended his life if God hadn't stepped in. How do I know? I didn't look over him, a professional doctor (not an easy profession to become) looked him over, saw how bad the cancer was, and told him he didn't have long to live. You can downplay doctors knowledge, and compare them to an every day car mechanic, but I don't think after 10 years of intense schooling and internships, that a doctor wouldn't know a dieng man when he saw one... How do you know he wasn't healed?
 
I will no doubt be called a scoffer, but nonetheless, I would disagree with you.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I don't think after 10 years of intense schooling and internships, that a doctor wouldn't know a dieng man when he saw one
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Look at the amount of malpractice litigation these days. Doctors, even trained intensively, make mistakes. Compared to people who have died at the hands of negligent doctors, a simple misdiagnosis is in comparison quite tame, and a lot easier to do - especially if the diagnosis was based on a test. Tests can be wrong.

Now, I don't mean to arrogantly dismiss this man's case out of hand; I don't know the circumstances or the details, but I would be very cautious in attributing things which we don't understand, or things that on the surface may look to be extraordinary to being a miracle. Again, call me a scoffer, but since time out of mind humans have attributed things they hadn't understood to the supernatural. When claims of miracle are made, usually regarding (you guessed it) not fully understood medical conditions, I consider it fair to look at them from all angles, examining more likely possibilities, before immediately exclaiming God-did-it!
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The cancer could of just died away, or the 'immune' system fought it, or antibodics, or something in the body killed the cancer, or whatever thats facts, not by religious 'miracles'.
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If the immune system can fight off cancer, there'd be a much higher survival rate.

Master~Plan, did he have another test? Because it could be a mistake. I'm not doubting God's power, or doubting miracles, I just think that he needs to be tested more then once.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I will no doubt be called a scoffer, but nonetheless, I would disagree with you.
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heh, you said it, not me...  
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Master~Plan, did he have another test? Because it could be a mistake. I'm not doubting God's power, or doubting miracles, I just think that he needs to be tested more then once.
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no he was only tested once. If you guys don't accept it as a miracle, thats fine. One test is enough for me, one doctor is enough for me. Everything is lagitamate. It didn't happen around you guys, and you didn't see. A story doesn't have the same effect as living it I guess. However my faith is not based on miracles. I believed in God, and then I saw. I got alot out of this miracle, take it for what its worth. This wasn't the first miracle I have witnessed, and it won't be the last...
 
Mmm, and you can argue it either way. I think it's telling that you need to believe in God first, but then I suppose you'd say that without belief in God one will always explain even the most extraordinary things in a way that avoids invoking God.
 
I have to say that I do find it a little odd that the cancer disappeared COMPLETELY, I would be pleased to accept that it went into remission, but vanished utterly?

And regarding the test - my ex-wife processes medical tests for the NHS in the UK. You'd no doubt be alarmed as to how many mistakes are made in medical testing, how easy it is to contaminate a slide, or send the wrong results to the wrong guy.

There's probably some poor bleeder who suddenly dropped dead of lung cancer after the tests came up clear! ;)

Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mmm, and you can argue it either way. I think it's telling that you need to believe in God first, but then I suppose you'd say that without belief in God one will always explain even the most extraordinary things in a way that avoids invoking God.
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Of course, isn't that kinda obvious? ( To me it is, at least. ) Anyway, Master~Plan, I didn't say it wasn't a miracle. But he should still test it one more time. After all, you don't just test a science expierement once, do you? No. You do it many times.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ April 12 2004,10:05)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]my ex-wife processes medical tests for the NHS in the UK. You'd no doubt be alarmed as to how many mistakes are made in medical testing
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haha, the UK, figures  
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I'll take the NHS over the US Medical system any day of the week. I don't think I could call a country home that reserved medical attention, schooling and justice for the wealthy.

Still want to play? ;)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'll take the NHS over the US Medical system any day of the week. I don't think I could call a country home that reserved medical attention, schooling and justice for the wealthy.

Still want to play? ;)
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calm down, I"m not into politics. I just think its funny how your ex-wife had lots of testing mistakes happen in a free medical system.
 
Religious healers and the like rely on their patient's belief that the treatment will cure them. You could call it faith I suppose, but it's merely psychological: the placebo effect.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Of course, isn't that kinda obvious? ( To me it is, at least. )
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Thanks, it was my attempt to respond to Master Plan without compromising my position or seeming a complete pretentious jerk. But it seems obvious to you? I would not have thought you'd find it obvious that there are big problems with the doctrine of 'First believe, then you will understand.' Do you find it obvious?
 
Um...What? I was talking about this part:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mmm, and you can argue it either way. I think it's telling that you need to believe in God first, but then I suppose you'd say that without belief in God one will always explain even the most extraordinary things in a way that avoids invoking God.
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Maybe I misunderstood you.
 
Nyet, comrade Jango. You were a little late in doing it, but you did it just fine.

Mind you, I find the position you take a little strange.
 
Isn't it the truth that Athiests will explain things that Christians take as miracles without including God?
 
Think about it like this...the 'healer' always heals something that can't be seen. If I get my arm chewed off by a rabid weasel and take it to him, he won't be able to put it back on. I do believe that God can heal people through other people, but I think that most of the stuff about it on TV is fake. I mean, if someone smacks me in the head that hard, I'm usre I'll fall on the ground also.
 
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