Religious Healers, lame.

[Mahfrot]

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ April 06 2004,12:28)]Amazing. Just about everyone here seems to claim that they have seen miracles. Everyone but me. And anyone that I might know.

Mahfrot, is your friend brain damaged?

He is, only in the area of motor skills, yet he is recovering at an amazing pace. Everyday his speech gets clearer, his motor skills sharpen up. He was my first roomate here at college, and I knew him quite well before the wreck. It really is amazing that he's alive, and even more awesome that he's actually still making recovery progress.

Master~Plan has a good point - faith in God would show you that probably a lot of stuff you've seen in your lifetime (however long it might be to this point) has been miracles. Takes faith to realize it though. Ever been short of money for a mortgage payment and have someone give you money anonymously? Ever need groceries and someone dropped a shopping bag at your doorstep? Someone survive surgery and recover against all medical odds? There are miracles all around us...

 

[Eon]

My ex had a small degree of healing power too, healers just learn to focus energy, there's usually a fair amount charging about in the human body, and you can adjust your own energy to help it.

 

[Grand Master]

What you people are choosing to call miracles I call fortuitous events. I believed in your god at one time - but no miracles were ever seen. What does believing in a god have to do with seeing miracles anyway? I should be able to observe them whether I believe or not. You people are ascribing the title of "miracle" to events that happen all the time, and which can be accounted for. What kind of miracle is a partial recovery from brain damage? People normally recover at least some mental function after a stroke or severe head trauma. If your friend's brain had been splattered against the windshield, and he was pronounced brain dead, and then overnight he regained complete mental function, that might be a miracle. Overcoming cancer? Again, where is the miracle? You probably have several cancerous cells in your body right now, but they will be destroyed by your immune system before they get the chance to develop into malignant tumors. Your body being able to repair itself is a miracle? Wow, I guess everything must be a miracle. Geez.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Overcoming cancer? Again, where is the miracle?

hahaha, oh man I guess your a hard one to please.

Quote[/b] ]The doctor gave him a few years to live.

I put this because I don't remember the exact amount of time, it was like anywhere from 8 months - 2 years.

Quote[/b] ]I should be able to observe them whether I believe or not.

God seems to think differently

 

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]hahaha, oh man I guess your a hard one to please.
...
God seems to think differently

Haha, I guess you lose if you're not prepared to support or explain these objections to anyone.

 

[Master~Plan]

^ [scratching head]uh I'm sorry, are we playing a game and no one filled me in?[/scratching head]
I just said how the cancer patient was going to die in a short time, this doesn't support a miracle happening?

 

[Drelin]

Shrug. Not really. It just annoys me when people say things like God seems to think differently without providing anything else to show that to be the case.

I know what you're saying though.

 

[Jango]

You can't really prove things are miracles ( Unless somebody heals someone or calls fire down from the sky. ), you just need faith. But really, if a person caught Ebola or Smallpox, and survived. ( There isn't any cure, and the Smallpox vacciene doesn't last long either. ) That'd obviously be a miracle, because those diseases are extremely dangerous.

 

[Eon]

See, the thing about doctors is that their art still pretty much revolves around winning enough time for the body to repair itself, and giving it the resources it requires to do so.

Other than surgery, most Doctors are mere mechanics.

This is relevant by way of saying that a Doctors assesment of a patients chance of survival doesn't take into account a number of factors that are critical to the success or failure of the patient in doing so.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Other than surgery, most Doctors are mere mechanics.

you know this from?

Quote[/b] ]This is relevant by way of saying that a Doctors assesment of a patients chance of survival doesn't take into account a number of factors that are critical to the success or failure of the patient in doing so.

I'm sorry, this just doesn't fly. Last I heard cancer is an incurable viris. Patients don't heal themselves of cancer. Maybe you guys have seen miracles, but don't really care...

 

[Drelin]

Just to clear up some confusion (Jango), my understanding is that a vaccine is a weakened strain or variant of the virus or bacterium you want to prevent. It makes the body think it's under attack, which causes the body to upgrade it's defense abilities against smallpox for example, or whatever you're trying to prevent.

I think you're confusing that with antidote, which is administered after infection.

I'd also like to take this time to say that italicising random words is fun.

 

[Grand Master]

Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry, this just doesn't fly. Last I heard cancer is an incurable viris. Patients don't heal themselves of cancer. Maybe you guys have seen miracles, but don't really care...

Can you please share all of what you know about cancer?

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]Just to clear up some confusion (Jango), my understanding is that a vaccine is a weakened strain or variant of the virus or bacterium you want to prevent. It makes the body think it's under attack, which causes the body to upgrade it's defense abilities against smallpox for example, or whatever you're trying to prevent.

I think you're confusing that with antidote, which is administered after infection.

No, the smallpox vaccine only lasts a few years.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry, this just doesn't fly. Last I heard cancer is an incurable viris. Patients don't heal themselves of cancer. Maybe you guys have seen miracles, but don't really care...

You heard wrong. Doctors give chemotharepy to most patience with cancer, and many times it does work. My mom ( A cancer nurse ) has seen many people go into remission.

 

[Eon]

Cancer is a malignant mutation that effectively gives a cell the go ahead to replicate and replicate and replicate itself. Unfortunately the cell doesn't perform any useful purpose, and also unfortunately the cells created by replication share the instruction to replicate and replicate and replicate too. The cancer cells crowd out healthy cells, consume resources and cause physiological symptoms due to pressure on organs, interruption of nerve pathways and interruption of blood and lymph distribution. In essence the body is eaten from within by itself.

Chemo Therapy basically poisons the cancerous growth, and the surrounding healthy tissue. The idea is that the body will survive the poison and recover, but often the cancer recovers.

Some Cancers are simple growths, but others either affect impossible to operate areas like the brain or affect areas like the lymphatic system where transportation to the rest of the body through the blood is rapid and inevitable. Some cancers are now a moderately complicated procedure to cure whilst others remain almost entirely fatal.

Surgeons are the most interventionist branch of the medical profession and most of what they do acts in a mechanical way upon the body - supporting or replacing joints, stitching up rips and tears in vessels, removing faulty organs etc. That's what I meant by Doctors being mostly mechanics.

 

[Master~Plan]

I"m not trying to pose as some cancer expert, however I don't see a doctor telling someone they are going to die shortly over something dumb like thumb cancer. This must have been a terminal illness, that was uncurable. I'm going to try and see if my friend still has the hospital records...

 

[Corpfox]

I believe the phrase:  Seeing is Believing  but even my eye's plays tricks on me, heh.

If i actually saw a 'healer', healing someone, 5 feet from me, with my 2 beedy eyes, then I would believe.
However, if its just rumors, on the radio, on tv, I wouldn't believe on that.

Now Doctors and Hospitals, thats a whole different topic here. Doctors, Medics, etc, they help people, try to heal them, but at least they dont permamently heal someone.
Now Cancers and other diseases, if u get it, u got slim to none chance to live, in my personal opinion. BUt, if 'magical', someone had cancer, and prayed to god to help that person take cancer away, and worked next day, that person had cancer away, thats just lame.
The cancer could of just died away, or the 'immune' system fought it, or antibodics, or something in the body killed the cancer, or whatever thats facts, not by religious 'miracles'.

If you came here, met me, eye to eye, face to face, and brought someone that is a healer, and actually healed someone/something here, then I would say, "Yeah, I believe now." if not, I still stand for what I say here, religious healers are lame, even miracles, or luck, chance, flukes, (fate!?), (destiny, what the hell)"Heart of the Cards", etc.

ANd dont tell me that its your 'destiny' to go to heaven and meet god when u die and go to heaven as a christian, thats baloney.

 

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]Now Cancers and other diseases, if u get it, u got slim to none chance to live, in my personal opinion.

I invite you to go here: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/STT/stt_0.asp

If I understood, the survival rate is 63%, where survival means still being alive five years after diagnosis.

Quote[/b] ]ANd dont tell me that its your 'destiny' to go to heaven and meet god when u die and go to heaven as a christian, thats baloney.

Argue against 'destiny' from a Christian perspetive, where God is omniscient.

Oh, and good job at being more or less comprehensible, unlike in your other thread.

 

[Corpfox]

Quote[/b] ]Quote
Now Cancers and other diseases, if u get it, u got slim to none chance to live, in my personal opinion.


I invite you to go here: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/STT/stt_0.asp

If I understood, the survival rate is 63%, where survival means still being alive five years after diagnosis.

ahahaha, i found your flaw.

Caution: It is very important to note that, beginning with the 2003 Cancer Facts & Figures, the incidence and mortality data has been age-adjusted to the 2000 population standard of the United States.


I am from Canada, British Columbia, a Canadian. So wheres the stats for Canada, aye?

Quote[/b] ]Quote
ANd dont tell me that its your 'destiny' to go to heaven and meet god when u die and go to heaven as a christian, thats baloney.


Argue against 'destiny' from a Christian perspetive, where God is omniscient.

Oh, and good job at being more or less comprehensible, unlike in your other thread.

The worst thing is I have no idea what you just said there, and I had to check, comprehensible and omniscient on my talking dictorary.

 

[Drelin]

Since you asked, here are your Canadian statistics - Canadian Cancer Society: Statistics

I didn't find a similar survival percentage, but this is probably comparable:

Quote[/b] ]An estimated 139,900 new cases of cancer and 67,400 deaths will occur in Canada in 2003.

On average, 2,690 Canadians will be diagnosed with cancer every week.
On average, 1,296 Canadians will die of cancer every week.

What I meant by my other comment was that since God knows everything (he is omniscient), he knows what you're going to do in the future. You are destined to do what whatever it is that God knows you're going to do.

Comprehensible - I understood you; you made sense.

 

[Drelin]

And here's some numbers from my own native Australia:

Quote[/b] ]Cancer in Australia
- 1 in 3 men and 1 in 4 women will be directly affected by cancer before the age of 75.
- In Australia each year, more than 85,000 new cases of cancer are diagnosed.*
- More than half of them will be successfully treated.
- The survival rate for many common cancers has increased by more than 30 per cent in the past two decades.

Wow - there seems to be a trend in developed western nations! Ah, but a miracle seems a little less likely when the survival rate is over 50 percent. Perhaps that 50 percent are alive due to a miracle? Perhaps the fact that the survival rate of cancer in Australia has gone up 30 percent in the last 20 years doesn't relate to the improvement of understanding and technology? Perhaps it's simply God's benevolance that's increased?