Religious Healers, lame.

Shyfroggy said:
Believe me, I understand where you are coming from all too well. I have been where you are and can view your position with empathy and hindsight. You may not like what I am saying, but please know I speak with sincerity.

Please know too, that I speak with sincerity when I say it's God's timing not ours.
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I would like to stress, once again, that I was JUST LIKE YOU. I was a Christian, so I understand your position intimately.

Since my departure from Christianity I have studied world religions, included minoring in Philosophy of Religion at a university level.

Does he control the randomness in my life as well since I have not allowed him to totally and completely reign in my life?
Perhaps He does.....
yes, no, or you don't know?
Again, why the problem saying you don't know?

Ok for that one, I'll admit, I don't know because I'm not God.
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THANK YOU! Liberating feeling isn't it? :)

I think too many people are afraid/stubborn/whatever to simply admit they don't have an answer. Trust me, I get a LOT of flak over being happy to admit I don't know and not wanting to hazard a guess either way. For me, it's the most intellectually honest position to take.

You are defending your choice, which I understand. But what you are saying is that your choice is right and mine is wrong. The "but I'll be praying for you" is a dig to me, that you hope I will wake up one day and realize that my life is a mistake. You are being hypocritical.

Saying that I would pray for you is not a dig to you....you may not like what I have to say but please know that I speak with sincerity...I'm sorry if I am coming across hypocritical for that is not at all what I meant to do, and in no way am I saying that you are wrong. Your life is not a mistake - God has a plan for you.
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Thank you, no harm, no foul. A tough question though...you have taken the position that you are happy, whether your outlook is right or wrong, you are happy with the choice you made. Would you consider my life a waste, or a mistake, if I lived it as I am now, unable to decide on the existence of God? What if I lived all my life searching for something I could not find, ending in a lifetime of disappointment? Or...rather, a life as a Christian...even though I was not true to myself, taking Pascal's Wager and becoming a Christian out of necessity, to save my eternal hide...you know, just in case.

[
COLOR="blue"]Logical fallacy.
Do you believe that I have no morals? That I am a homicidal maniac because I don't prostrate myself and worship your god?
I have rules, I have guidelines. I have far greater morals than many "christians" I have seen.
You are no better than I am.[/COLOR]

I don't think you are a crazy homicidal maniac - I think that you are totally and completly in search of the Lord - and at this moment in your search - you are at that point where you feel the need to SEE in order to BELIEVE.
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AH, but I noticed you didn't answer if I had morals :)

Let me correct you, please. I am NOT totally and completely in search of the Lord. There was a time when I was, but that time has long past. I am, however, totally and completely in search of the truth, no matter what the outcome.

But when your beliefs invade my space, then I am forced to take a keen interest in what your beliefs are. And when I don't see your beliefs based on reason, then yes, THAT bothers me.

I'm glad you said this.....and I have the same reason for taking such a keen interest. I think your word choice was very interesting - you are posting in Christian forums and yet saying that Christian beliefs are invading your space....
Do you not understand my position on this? As a minority in this country...heck, in this world, I am beset with Christianity on all sides. Now, normally this wouldn't be a big deal, but I don't take kindly to threats, and threats are exactly what Christianity teaches to nonChristians...convert or burn, simply put.

Would you mind explaining how nonChristians affect your belief? What, exactly, are you interested in here?

UH, no, you haven't tried to provide me with anything that even remotely resembles proof. All you have done is told me what helped YOU. And as you have already pointed out (thus agreeing with me) your proof does me no good.
It does you no good because you refuse to see it for what is...
And what is it?

My proof is my own personal experiences that I have tried to share with you but for whatever reason you are caught up on only wanting a certain type of proof. If I share an experience with you and tell me that that was the proof I needed, then take it for just that. I understand that you may need a different kind of proof, but how can you disregard what I claim is proof?
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I don't disregard it as proof, since, obviously, you are a Christian, so it had an impact on you. My position is two-fold. I not sold on your proof being scientific proof, physically testable, therefore rational. Second, your proof, or anyone's proof, is no good to anyone else, unless that evidential proof can be shared. Otherwise, it's just a nice story. It becomes anecdotal evidence, useless to anyone but the story teller.

Haven't you listened to anything I've said?
I've lived that life and it did nothing for me.
So honestly, I ask in all sincerity. What would you have me do?
You say God is waiting for me...where was he when I earnestly sought him?
Exactly why should I spend any more time than the decades I put in already

Yeah actually I have listened to everything you said, thus would explain why I continue to come back day after day and continue to type these really long posts. Why should you spend anymore time seeking God, because, God's timing is different than ours. You put in decades as you say, well what if God's timing meant a few decades and five months? If you give up and don't continue to earnestly seek him, how can you tell if you're selling yourself short...let me ask you this - you say you put in decades searching for the Lord? am I correct? If so was your search simply that, just a search for the Lord or did your time in search of the Lord include asking/praying that he work in your life?
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As a Christian, I had a complete Christian outlook. I studied, I prayed, I accepted Christ, etc. I worked, I studied, I prayed, I cried. I don't know how much more I could do. It was like taking a journey on a treadmill...I never actually got anywhere.

This goes back to what I mentioned earlier. If God exists, and is omniscient, then he should have known just how far he could make me wait before I gave up. Ask and it shall be given! Right?

I have no urge to go down that road again, no urge to waste more of my life in a fruitless pursuit.

You turned my words around on me, so I will be the bigger person here and take up your challenge. I hunger for the truth. What should I do to find it?

Turn to His word...that is where I have been able to find the truth I need...
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Please look back at my posts. I have done that and found nothing.

I'll make you a deal, I promise to stop fighting you on that if you will just stop saying it

I won't stop saying it, sorry. It's about God's timing, not ours.
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Then I won't won't stop fighting you on your silly saying. Silly? Yes, it lost any effectiveness it might have had long ago. Now, it's just annoying. And that fact that you keep saying it only emphasizes the annoyance.

I did ask nicely.

God created the world.
He created Satan.
He created evil.
He let man fall.
Those things are the works of GOD.

Was it God that let man fall, or was it his choice?
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Let's see...

Who created Satan? God
Who created the Garden of Eden? God
Who created Man? God
Who allowed Satan entrance to the Garden of Eden? God
If God is omniscient than he knew, before Satan's creation, that he would facilitate the Fall of Man. Therefore, God PURPOSELY created Satan with the intent of making Man fall.

Therefore, God is responsible for the Fall of Man.

A choice? What were your other choices? Would your parents have approved?

My parents didn't really care about religion - yeah they believed in God but if we forgot our prayers it was no big deal...As far as other choices, I guess I never really looked in to other choices at the time - I found something that made me feel complete - I found the Lord and my search ended there but yet it also began - I began the search within to see what my beliefs were and I guess to a certain extent the proof I provided you was probably at about a time in my life where I was pretty close to giving up on the Lord....
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BINGO. I guess I never really looked in to other choices at the time

You no longer lack...no, you no longer want to look at other choices objectively. Who is to say that you wouldn't have felt complete and happy with Confusionism or another religion?

The truth is geography, culture, family and environment play a HUGE role in your religious makeup. Just take a look at a map, the facts are there.

I agree with you on that point, however, while those things may greatly influence somebody as they are growing and maturing, I also think that once you are out of that environment you are free to make changes as you see fit...I do a lot more reading of the Bible and stuff that I wouldn't have done at home - it was my choice to continue on that path, but even continuing on that path meant that some changes had to be made.
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Point taken, but again, I point you to any map. Notice that geography has a large part to play in religion.

I could so easily be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslin - but the fact remains that I am a Christian....and let me ask you - Does it really matter what brought me to God? All that matters to me is that I do have an awesome Father watching out over me....
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I asked you HOW you could easily be anything else, you avoided that question.

Does it matter how you came to be a Christian. It is at the very crux of the discussion. It is of the utmost import!

Sorry, but I am going to call your bluff on this one.
I don't think you COULD easily be anything but Christian. I say that because of the little I know, so please, if I'm wrong, correct me.
Why do you believe you could EASILY be Buddhist, Hindu and/or Muslim? They are not the same thing, in fact, they are wildly different. How much do you really know about those things? Do you know what the Four Noble Truths are? Have you read the Vedas? Do you know what the Five Pillars of Islam are?
I think your knowledge of Christianity FAR outweighs your knowledge of other religions. Again, I could be wrong. Am I?

It was a figure of speech, Eon mentioned that based on geography I could just as easily have been one of those, I was simply saying as a figure of speech, 'well i guess i could have been any of those, but the facts remain that i am a Christian.' not actually meaning that i could be buddhist or islamic does that make sense? you are right my knowledge of Christianity probably does outweigh my knowledge of any other religion....however, I do know the Four Noble Truths, I have read bits and pieces of the Vedas, and I know what the five pillars of Islam are....I know this because within the last two years I took a comparitive religions class in college (we looked closely at 6 religions) and I also took a cross-cultural class that dealt with different religions as well....do I know a huge amount about them - no, but I was open minded enough to learn what I could during that class....
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A few questions for clarification: What setting was this class taken in? Was the instructor openly weighted to one religion? My best professors never told us where their beliefs lay, which was important to being objectie.

You have taken two classes in two years...arguably a small percentage to your overall experience with Christianity, no?

In all seriousness, I want to personally, and publicly thank Shyfroggy for active participation in this thread. It isn't always easy laying out your views for the world to see, especially when it's open for debate. Many people would have quit long before now, or simply shut the thread down. So I want to say thank you. For your patience and for the discussion.

And I'd like to thank you for causing me to take a closer look at my own beliefs...but I'd also like to say the following - thank God too - for it is Him who has provided me the patience needed to continue this dicussion as long as I have. (Just trying to point something out to you, please don't take offense.)
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Who provides me with patience? :)

Me.
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I would like to stress, once again, that I was JUST LIKE YOU. I was a Christian, so I understand your position intimately.

Great, so if you understand my position 'intimately' as you say, why do you keep going? Why can't you just accept that for some people it truly is about God's timing, not ours.

Since my departure from Christianity I have studied world religions, included minoring in Philosophy of Religion at a university level.

Congratulations on your achievement.

THANK YOU! Liberating feeling isn't it? :)

Liberating is a stretch, were you just waiting for me to say "I don't know" or did you actually here what I had to say?

I think too many people are afraid/stubborn/whatever to simply admit they don't have an answer. Trust me, I get a LOT of flak over being happy to admit I don't know and not wanting to hazard a guess either way. For me, it's the most intellectually honest position to take.

Key words there - "for me."

Thank you, no harm, no foul. A tough question though...you have taken the position that you are happy, whether your outlook is right or wrong, you are happy with the choice you made. Would you consider my life a waste, or a mistake, if I lived it as I am now, unable to decide on the existence of God? What if I lived all my life searching for something I could not find, ending in a lifetime of disappointment? Or...rather, a life as a Christian...even though I was not true to myself, taking Pascal's Wager and becoming a Christian out of necessity, to save my eternal hide...you know, just in case.

and who is saying my outlook is wrong? I don't consider anybodys life a waste, or a mistake...I'm not the one that can tell you if your life is a waste or a mistake if you continue to live this way or that way, I don't have that kind of say...it would be sad to live in a lifetime of disappointment - all I am left to say about this is two things - 1. God is waiting. 2. To each his own.


AH, but I noticed you didn't answer if I had morals :) Discussion of morals could be a whole nother thread.

Let me correct you, please. I am NOT totally and completely in search of the Lord. There was a time when I was, but that time has long past. I am, however, totally and completely in search of the truth, no matter what the outcome.

It was just my opinion when I stated that you were in search of the Lord, you and I may find our truth in different ways, but we are still in search of the truth.

I have no urge to go down that road again, no urge to waste more of my life in a fruitless pursuit.

I don't think it was fruitless....

Then I won't won't stop fighting you on your silly saying. Silly? Yes, it lost any effectiveness it might have had long ago. Now, it's just annoying. And that fact that you keep saying it only emphasizes the annoyance.

I did ask nicely.

Silly to you maybe, but not to me. It hasn't lost its effectiveness because you are still fighting it. You're still fighting it because I actually believe it and you don't find it rational. Do you really want to get into asking people nicely about things? For sure there are many things that I could ask you nicely but just because I ask you nicely doesn't mean you are going to just do it.

Let's see...

Who created Satan? God
Who created the Garden of Eden? God
Who created Man? God
Who allowed Satan entrance to the Garden of Eden? God
If God is omniscient than he knew, before Satan's creation, that he would facilitate the Fall of Man. Therefore, God PURPOSELY created Satan with the intent of making Man fall.

Therefore, God is responsible for the Fall of Man.

Man made his choices, if he would have followed God's advice, things would be much different - I do believe that the Lord places things/people in our life to test our faith.

Does it matter how you came to be a Christian. It is at the very crux of the discussion. It is of the utmost import!

What do you mean by that I don't quite understand..

A few questions for clarification: What setting was this class taken in? Was the instructor openly weighted to one religion? My best professors never told us where their beliefs lay, which was important to being objectie.You have taken two classes in two years...arguably a small percentage to your overall experience with Christianity, no?

The professor never talked of her beliefs. You're right, I don't know much about them, but I believe I said "do I know a huge amount about them - no, but I was open minded enough to learn what I could during that class...."


Who provides me with patience? :)
Me.

Who provides me with patience? :)
God
 
Dark Virtue said:
If I were going to call you a liar, I wouldn't find the need to sugar coat it, I would simply do it.

Do you understand the difference between proof and anecdotal evidence? I would appreciate it if you would give mea definition of both, so we're on the same page.

What you may have is indeed proof. By not sharing it and only regailing us with a story, it becomes, to the rest of us, second hand information, anecdotal evidence. Therefore, your proof is not proof to me.

Why, exactly, haven't you shared this information with any medical journals? I don't care if you release them to me or not, I'm not a doctor, neither am I trained to read xrays. Have you shared them with anyone? Documented proof of a real, honest to goodness miracle would be a boon to Christianity.
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My story has been documented in medical journals... how far they have spread I am not certain, whether it is available online I am not certain of either. :( Sorry, I do have the medical magazine somewhere in the many boxes that are in my house full of stuff to be moved. When i find it, I'll post the name and issue number.

Sorry if I sounded rude. :(

And yes I know the differance between anecdotal evidence and proof. One is easily backed up with proof, (say the medical journal) the other is simply second hand information. (I am generlizing a bit because of lack of time..... Ah, finals are sooo much fun.... )

My xrays actually disapeared from my chart while the doctor who was to preform my surgery took them to a medical conferance to show. I have them once more, however, they are at the doctors office in the medical records. Maybe someday when I get a scanner I'll post em....

You asked for healing that was something that could be seen outside the body, I simply shared a true story with you. Whether you believe me or not is beside the point. The fact is, it is true. I have witnesses, plus documented proof. (THough this did happen....10 years ago I think.... I would have to check... I remember it vividly, just not dates... I am terrible with dates... )
 
Shyfroggy said:
I would like to stress, once again, that I was JUST LIKE YOU. I was a Christian, so I understand your position intimately.

Great, so if you understand my position 'intimately' as you say, why do you keep going? Why can't you just accept that for some people it truly is about God's timing, not ours.
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Because while I understand the outcome, I am still interested in the reasoning process behind it.

Since my departure from Christianity I have studied world religions, included minoring in Philosophy of Religion at a university level.

Congratulations on your achievement.
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That's not why I said that. It's an example of the study that I have done in various religions, in equal amounts, objectively.

THANK YOU! Liberating feeling isn't it? :)

Liberating is a stretch, were you just waiting for me to say "I don't know" or did you actually here what I had to say?
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Both. I did, however, explain why I pressed the point.

I think too many people are afraid/stubborn/whatever to simply admit they don't have an answer. Trust me, I get a LOT of flak over being happy to admit I don't know and not wanting to hazard a guess either way. For me, it's the most intellectually honest position to take.

Key words there - "for me."
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Understood. Do you believe you are being intellectually honest?

Thank you, no harm, no foul. A tough question though...you have taken the position that you are happy, whether your outlook is right or wrong, you are happy with the choice you made. Would you consider my life a waste, or a mistake, if I lived it as I am now, unable to decide on the existence of God? What if I lived all my life searching for something I could not find, ending in a lifetime of disappointment? Or...rather, a life as a Christian...even though I was not true to myself, taking Pascal's Wager and becoming a Christian out of necessity, to save my eternal hide...you know, just in case.

and who is saying my outlook is wrong? I don't consider anybodys life a waste, or a mistake...I'm not the one that can tell you if your life is a waste or a mistake if you continue to live this way or that way, I don't have that kind of say...it would be sad to live in a lifetime of disappointment - all I am left to say about this is two things - 1. God is waiting. 2. To each his own.
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Would you mind explaining the "to each his own" part?

AH, but I noticed you didn't answer if I had morals :) Discussion of morals could be a whole nother thread.

Let me correct you, please. I am NOT totally and completely in search of the Lord. There was a time when I was, but that time has long past. I am, however, totally and completely in search of the truth, no matter what the outcome.

It was just my opinion when I stated that you were in search of the Lord, you and I may find our truth in different ways, but we are still in search of the truth.
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Not true. You are not in search of the truth, you claim to have already found it.

I have no urge to go down that road again, no urge to waste more of my life in a fruitless pursuit.

I don't think it was fruitless....
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Neither do I, but that's not what I said.

To go down that road AGAIN would be fruitless, when I already know what lies at the end.

Then I won't won't stop fighting you on your silly saying. Silly? Yes, it lost any effectiveness it might have had long ago. Now, it's just annoying. And that fact that you keep saying it only emphasizes the annoyance.

I did ask nicely.

Silly to you maybe, but not to me. It hasn't lost its effectiveness because you are still fighting it. You're still fighting it because I actually believe it and you don't find it rational. Do you really want to get into asking people nicely about things? For sure there are many things that I could ask you nicely but just because I ask you nicely doesn't mean you are going to just do it.
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I prefer to ask nicely. I could have demanded rudely, but where would that have gotten me?

Let's see...

Who created Satan? God
Who created the Garden of Eden? God
Who created Man? God
Who allowed Satan entrance to the Garden of Eden? God
If God is omniscient than he knew, before Satan's creation, that he would facilitate the Fall of Man. Therefore, God PURPOSELY created Satan with the intent of making Man fall.

Therefore, God is responsible for the Fall of Man.

Man made his choices, if he would have followed God's advice, things would be much different - I do believe that the Lord places things/people in our life to test our faith.
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The analogy of a parent and child works perfecly here. You tell your child not to touch the flame on the stove, that it will hurt. A GOOD parent will not turn on the stove, place their child in a chair in front of the stove, then lock them in the kitchen.

That is precisely what God did. Free Will was violated, by God, by creating an environment that would have only one outcome.

Does it matter how you came to be a Christian. It is at the very crux of the discussion. It is of the utmost import!

What do you mean by that I don't quite understand..
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Two examples:

1) A person grows up in a religious household, being indoctrinated by their family, they grow up to be a member of that religion. That person never fully questions their position, they simply accept it, because their family, their environment supports that one particular religion.

2) A person studies many different religions, independant of their background. Through study, they make a rational, objective decision to base their religious outlook on. The choice is irrelevant, what matters is HOW the decision was made.

A few questions for clarification: What setting was this class taken in? Was the instructor openly weighted to one religion? My best professors never told us where their beliefs lay, which was important to being objectie.You have taken two classes in two years...arguably a small percentage to your overall experience with Christianity, no?

The professor never talked of her beliefs. You're right, I don't know much about them, but I believe I said "do I know a huge amount about them - no, but I was open minded enough to learn what I could during that class...."
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But did you know enough to make a valid, honest comparison with Christianity? And were you objective about what you learned?


Who provides me with patience? :)
Me.

Who provides me with patience? :)
God
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Who provides me with patience? :)
Me.

We could do this all day, but don't you think the repetition would be silly?
 
Again, I hate to be picky, but SAYING you have proof, and SHOWING US the proof are two different things.

In all honesty, I don't ever expect you to tell me what journal this evidence is in. I do, however, hope to be proven wrong.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Again, I hate to be picky, but SAYING you have proof, and SHOWING US the proof are two different things.

In all honesty, I don't ever expect you to tell me what journal this evidence is in. I do, however, hope to be proven wrong.
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As soon as I find the journal once more, I will post the name, issue and volume.

Unfortunatly, when you have 100 boxes.....well remembering where you put something gets a little hard.... Even though I labeled which room it came out of... With my luck, it will ahve been in the first box I placed in the storage unit, the one all the way in the back....

Anyway, I know you would like tangible prrof, At this moment, I can not give any. and I apologize for that. As soon as I am ab;e, I will give you the proof you so desperatly desire.
 
Just letting you all know that I am not leaving this discussion but I will not be posting on this thread until next week - I won't be on the computer much over the next couple of days.
 
I saw this Benny Hinn thing this morning on the John Stewart Daily Report show or whatever, I don't watch it too much but this made me laugh at first then disgust me afterwards.

So I see Benny Hinn healing people by HITTING THEM WITH HIS JACKET....like....lol?!?!? One person at a time would come up on stage and he'd just whack them on the back with his coat as they walk by and they do a faceplant into the floor lol! hahaha oh man. Then on his way off the stage he smacks a whole group of people in the face with his jacket and they all fall over too! Like whoah...hah. I used to think Benny Hinn was cool because he healed people with his HANDS not CLOTHING. Pretending that you have God's power in your clothes means you're a moron. I'm pretty sure God gave us hands for a reason, and to heal was one of them. (They're also used to destroy, but that's a whole different story!) Yeah, so I kind of am disgusted at Benny's behavior, thinking he's a superior healer and what not. He thinks he's above everybody, and he spends his money all over the place, I saw it on the 60 minutes show. Showed his personal life and how he runs things. Just thought I'd tell everyone that little story. SOME healers are for real, but ol' Benny boy has been enjoying the power a little too much...
 
I couldn't resist, do you think they fell to the floor because they were healed or because he hit them too hard- thus pushing them forward into the floor....

i dont mean this a literal question - just thought I'd share what that made me think about.
 
Armandus said:
I saw this Benny Hinn thing this morning on the John Stewart Daily Report show or whatever, I don't watch it too much but this made me laugh at first then disgust me afterwards.

So I see Benny Hinn healing people by HITTING THEM WITH HIS JACKET....like....lol?!?!? One person at a time would come up on stage and he'd just whack them on the back with his coat as they walk by and they do a faceplant into the floor lol! hahaha oh man. Then on his way off the stage he smacks a whole group of people in the face with his jacket and they all fall over too! Like whoah...hah. I used to think Benny Hinn was cool because he healed people with his HANDS not CLOTHING. Pretending that you have God's power in your clothes means you're a moron. I'm pretty sure God gave us hands for a reason, and to heal was one of them. (They're also used to destroy, but that's a whole different story!) Yeah, so I kind of am disgusted at Benny's behavior, thinking he's a superior healer and what not. He thinks he's above everybody, and he spends his money all over the place, I saw it on the 60 minutes show. Showed his personal life and how he runs things. Just thought I'd tell everyone that little story. SOME healers are for real, but ol' Benny boy has been enjoying the power a little too much...
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I'm not sure why you ever thought Benny Hinn was cool.

But, how do you know he's pretending to have God's power, in his clothes or anywhere? Have you never been prayed over or annointed with a cloth?

How can you tell who is faking and who isn't?
 
Shyfroggy said:
I couldn't resist, do you think they fell to the floor because they were healed or because he hit them too hard- thus pushing them forward into the floor....

i dont mean this a literal question - just thought I'd share what that made me think about.
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It's the whole "charismatic" thing.

I've seen him, and others, do it with just a touch and the "healed" would still fly ot the floor.

WHY?

DUH! It's the power of GOD!
 
Shyfroggy said:
I couldn't resist, do you think they fell to the floor because they were healed or because he hit them too hard- thus pushing them forward into the floor....

i dont mean this a literal question - just thought I'd share what that made me think about.
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I think there trying to get away so they don't get hit again...
 
Dark Virtue said:
I'm not sure why you ever thought Benny Hinn was cool.

But, how do you know he's pretending to have God's power, in his clothes or anywhere? Have you never been prayed over or annointed with a cloth?

How can you tell who is faking and who isn't?
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Benny Hinn used to be legit, that's why he was cool. Back in the day when he valued and thanked God for his power instead of waving it around like a fool.

I've never been prayed over or annointed with a cloth, only by my pastors hands. It doesn't seem like God would place his power into an article of clothing (not saying he couldn't). Benny wants people to think everything about him his Holy, including his clothes for some reason. I'm not entirely sure who's real or fake, but there are some slight indications within their preaching to determine whether it's fake or real. Might have to read into that I suppose.
 
Armandus said:
I'm not entirely sure who's real or fake, but there are some slight indications within their preaching to determine whether it's fake or real. Might have to read into that I suppose.
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And there you have it. The entirety of religion summed up right there.
 
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