Proposition 19

[Odale]

Abba -

I ask that you keep this thread open.

I still find it interesting and want to know what others think, regardless that Proposition 19 did not pass.

I'm in class right now so I can't fully respond, just my quick thoughts.

Thanks

Edit: Wow, during a class break I read through the last page. Great responses by all.

 

[Durruck]

First, more people smoke pot than you know, apparently.

Quite possibly, but the group I'm around closely, I can tell you that nobody does. If some of my acquaintances are smokers, it would be a shock. I can usually pick up on the smell very easily. I haven't "hung out" with the 3 friends that smoke for.....oh, close to 10 years now. I still talk to 1 of them via the internet (he lives a few hours away now, otherwise, we'd still hang out.) But I see people that smoke it all the time. Oh the joys of working EMS in the inner city.

how many people smoke pot in your county? State? Country? And how many deaths have you heard about?

Do you want to count drug deals gone wrong and someone gets shot? Because the number dramatically increases on that statistic alone. And yes, I'm talking about people buying/selling weed.

I believe you can also get busted for driving while too sleepy, but don't quote me on that.

Laws may vary state-to-state, but here in Ohio, the only thing you can get is cited for reckless operation, if you actually hit something. Obviously, there would be a different charge if you killed someone.

Marijuana, on the other hand, leads to increased use of heroine because it's being bought from drug dealers.

I only have anecdotal evidence here, but the three people that I know that smoked pot tried other drugs too because they wanted to. They weren't given free samples or cheap prices to try something else. They liked the feeling of pot, and wondered what would happen if they mixed in 'shrooms. One of them went on to try LSD, X, and cocaine because he wanted to see how they made him feel. It's not as simple as saying "if they could buy the marijuana legally, they never would have thought to try shrooms!" Because if it was a matter of legality, they would have never thought to try pot. Where did they get it the first time, from the Pepsi machine?

Citing drunkenness is a bit of a stretch, especially considering many people read that to mean "hey, I can drink in moderation". I don't drink, and feel it is unwise to make a habit of doing so.

I don't think it is a stretch. Jesus made 180 gallons of wine for a wedding party. Paul encouraged Timothy to drink a little wine to cure his stomach problems. The part from 1 Tim 3 is about moderation. You can have some, keep it in check. You can even drink a little every day! Modern medicine tells us that a glass of red wine with dinner is a good thing. Drinking the whole bottle of red wine, however...

I would not be against legalizing cannabis for it's helpful properties. Hemp itself has a TON of useful things that you can do with it. However, I would guess (ie, I'm making this number up) that over 99% of all people in the US that use marijuana are NOT doing it for their cataracts, the blood pressure, or because they have cancer. Modern cultivators have found ways to significantly increase the amount of THC (the part that makes you feel "high"), making the drug far more potent. If you turn that around and find a way to reduce or eliminate it, you still gain the medicinal effects without the buzz, addiction. Do that, and sell it like crazy. I'm all for that.

God gave us the plant and let us find a reason to use it. Why would we refuse that? But on the other hand, just as 1 Tim 3 warns about intoxication (because we are gluttons, really), the same could be said for legal marijuana. But it would need to be controlled and regulated as a class II narcotic - as are Oxycontin, Morphine, and Valium.

Then again, you see how effective that is. You can buy all of them on the street. Just two weeks ago, I ran on a guy that got shot while trying to buy Oxy. Legal doesn't mean that crime goes away.

No, what should be done is create a "sin" tax, and use that money towards something to help counter marijuana smoking

I'd like to see a study that shows that sin taxes work, as far as reducing the number of users. What I see here are people that neglect their other responsibilities and needs to buy their beer and cigarettes. 2 days ago, I ran on a guy that wasn't taking any of his prescription meds because he couldn't afford them....because he was buying cigs & beer instead. He was on public assistance and trading his food stamps to buy the "sin tax" items.

Get the people who want to smoke pot away into the store and out of the streets, and they'll be buying less heroine as well.

According to the County Sheriff, local drug task force, and whoever else was involved in report, Black Tar Heroin was the most commonly used substance by school-age kids in my county in 2008.

They're already not buying pot. By the time they'd be legally allowed to buy it in the store (18), they've already moved on to something else that's cheaper and easier to get right here in Smalltown, Ohio.

 

[Abba San]

I guess I'll ask a direct question in reference to my last post.

Abba,
Forum theme aside, do you agree that it isn't possible to discuss biblical merit until we discuss specifics? IE: I can't make a biblical case for preventing deaths in Mexico unless I first link prohibition to the drug war in Mexico.

Ryan, in answer to your question – nope – I wouldn’t agree. I think it is possible to discuss biblical merit without specifics. I think you could make a biblical case for preventing deaths in Mexico without any link to the drug wars. I think there are biblical principles that can be raised without regard to situational specifics. Then the principles can be applied to specific situations. For example, in the use of marijuana:


"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV)

Forget, for a moment, about the law and think about you, your family, your children. Are you okay with smoking pot in your immediate family? Do you find it a benefit?


You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature...So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Galatians 5:13-16 (NIV)

Can you envision Jesus sitting around with the disciples getting high - just a little pleasure trip? I can't. Do you think he wants you to use your freedom for getting high? Do you think that is what we will be doing in heaven?


I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10 (NIV)

Do you think Jesus had getting high in mind when he said this?


So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10:31 (NIV)

There are many things we do that are not to the glory of God, I know. But should we be thinking about things to add that don't honor him or things we should eliminate because they don't?


Each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 (NASB)

That is what we should be striving for.


Lazarus put it well earlier in this thread:

What God thinks about the government regulating it, I don't know. I do know that He doesn't want us putting harmful things into our bodies like tobacco and high concentrations of alcohol and corn syrup.

Sometimes we just need to quit thinking about what should be legal or even what is "right" and think about what the godly response should be.

 

[Lloren]

Forget, for a moment, about the law and think about you, your family, your children. Are you okay with smoking pot in your immediate family? Do you find it a benefit?

Yes, not myself personally, but I do have immediate family different people who use it for different reasons some medically and some recreationally.

Can you envision Jesus sitting around with the disciples getting high - just a little pleasure trip? I can't. Do you think he wants you to use your freedom for getting high? Do you think that is what we will be doing in heaven?

I can envision the disciples and Jesus sitting around drinking wine and talking and fellowshipping together. So yes. I can't envision the Pharisees doing it. If you want to be a good Pharisee, make up some rules! You are correct. God doesn't want us to use our freedom for checking out, but rather engaging and loving each other.

http://allsoulsmissoula.org/2008/06/jesus-pot.html

Do you think Jesus had getting high in mind when he said this?

Do you think Jesus had abstinence or asceticism in mind when he said this?

But should we be thinking about things to add that don't honor him or things we should eliminate because they don't?

Absolutely!

 

[RyanB]

Do you want to count drug deals gone wrong and someone gets shot? Because the number dramatically increases on that statistic alone. And yes, I'm talking about people buying/selling weed.

Thank you very much for bringing this up; it's almost like you're trying to prove my point. Riddle me this: wouldn't you expect the number of murders over drug deals to go down if there were less drug deals? People buying pot over the counter would cut down on most back alley drug deals - because most back alley drug deals are over pot! Wouldn't you agree?

Laws may vary state-to-state, but here in Ohio, the only thing you can get is cited for reckless operation, if you actually hit something. Obviously, there would be a different charge if you killed someone.

Right, my point was simply that legalizing cannabis would not make it ok to go smoke and drive. You're not allowed to drive while taking heavy prescription painkillers.

I only have anecdotal evidence here, but the three people that I know that smoked pot tried other drugs too because they wanted to. They weren't given free samples or cheap prices to try something else. They liked the feeling of pot, and wondered what would happen if they mixed in 'shrooms. One of them went on to try LSD, X, and cocaine because he wanted to see how they made him feel. It's not as simple as saying "if they could buy the marijuana legally, they never would have thought to try shrooms!" Because if it was a matter of legality, they would have never thought to try pot. Where did they get it the first time, from the Pepsi machine?

Correlation != Causation. Think about it - how many people do you know would pop LSD, X, and cocaine, but say "oh my goodness...marijuana?!? No way I'm trying that, it's dangerous!"

I would urge you to look at some of the scientific studies done. I linked a few google search results, but just know that NO study has ever been able to show any sort of causal link between marijuana use and using harder drugs.
http://scienceblog.com/12116/study-says-marijuana-no-gateway-drug/
http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#gateway
http://www.drugscience.org/sfu/sfu_gateway.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20015429-10391704.html

I don't think it is a stretch. Jesus made 180 gallons of wine for a wedding party. Paul encouraged Timothy to drink a little wine to cure his stomach problems. The part from 1 Tim 3 is about moderation. You can have some, keep it in check. You can even drink a little every day! Modern medicine tells us that a glass of red wine with dinner is a good thing. Drinking the whole bottle of red wine, however...

I simply meant that stating cannabis should be outlawed because the bible indicates alcohol might be ok in moderation seems like an odd leap of logic. Would you mind clarifying?

I'd like to see a study that shows that sin taxes work, as far as reducing the number of users. What I see here are people that neglect their other responsibilities and needs to buy their beer and cigarettes. 2 days ago, I ran on a guy that wasn't taking any of his prescription meds because he couldn't afford them....because he was buying cigs & beer instead. He was on public assistance and trading his food stamps to buy the "sin tax" items.

Let me first clarify - I do not expect the number of smokers to go down after legalization; it will most certainly go up. It's simple economics. If marijuana is made more accessible, more people will access it. I support legalization because A) I don't think we have the biblical or constitutional authority to outlaw it and B) because I think the unintended consequences of prohibition far outweigh the benefits

Now, back to economics - if something costs $10 instead of $5, of course people will consume less. That doesn't mean everyone; some people will buy at any price, others will never buy no matter how cheap. But those in the middle are affected by cost.

The tax money could be used to put ads against smoking on TV (cigarette ones really do work), raise awareness about the real dangers of pot, offset the healthcare cost, etc.

FYI - in 2007, 21% of adults in the US smoked cigarettes, compared to 41% in 1944. And of those 21%, they smoke less than thy used to.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/27/health/webmd/main3106215.shtml

According to the County Sheriff, local drug task force, and whoever else was involved in report, Black Tar Heroin was the most commonly used substance by school-age kids in my county in 2008.

They're already not buying pot. By the time they'd be legally allowed to buy it in the store (18), they've already moved on to something else that's cheaper and easier to get right here in Smalltown, Ohio.

Local areas tend to have their own local flavor, depending on the area, but it is certainly the exception rather than the rule that harder drugs are more prevalent.

Three questions -
1) Don't you want your anti-drug task force focusing solely on harder drugs?
2) Do you realize that we could use marijuana tax to help pay for more police officers to crack down on said heroine?
3) Do you realize that most of the money for these dealers comes from marijuana? Just because they mostly deal heroine where you are doesn't mean the larger ring doesn't exist.

 

[Abba San]

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10:31 (NIV)

There are many things we do that are not to the glory of God, I know. But should we be thinking about things to add that don't honor him or things we should eliminate because they don't?


Each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 (NASB)

That is what we should be striving for.

Absolutely!

I'm glad we agree on that.

 

[RyanB]

I'm going to start with this, because I think this is being missed.

• First, don't use marijuana, unless for pain. I don't care how we feel about whether or not it should be illegal; it's illegal, so it's sinning. Only when we have a higher command from God do we get to break the government's law.
• If/when marijuana is legalized, don't smoke it, unless you need it for pain. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good to do; it causes cancer and impairs judgment.

I do not advocate smoking pot. I do not smoke cigarettes or drink, and I would not smoke pot if it were legalized.

In 9 pages of this thread, I do not believe I have seen a single person advocating that smoking pot is good. I support legalizing the ability to do so, which is quite different.

Ryan, in answer to your question – nope – I wouldn’t agree. I think it is possible to discuss biblical merit without specifics. I think you could make a biblical case for preventing deaths in Mexico without any link to the drug wars. I think there are biblical principles that can be raised without regard to situational specifics. Then the principles can be applied to specific situations. For example, in the use of marijuana:

If we don't actually examine specifics, how can we make biblical judgements on said specifics?

What I mean is...if I say we're commanded to love others, in this case Mexican citizens, I can't exactly apply that to this discussion without first showing a causal link between prohibition and Mexican cartels that are killing said Mexicans.

If we want to be strictly biblical about it without examining any details, then I say that there is no biblical command to outlaw drugs. I've seen some great biblical arguments here for not personally using drugs, but that is completely different from having a biblical command to outlaw cannabis in our society.

Am I missing something?

"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV)

Emphasis added. Again, I agree that smoking pot is foolish, but I fail to see how a verse that explicitly states everything is permissible to mean that we should add to God's word and make things un-permissable.

What I'm failing to see here is the biblical command to outlaw pot. If, in fact, your argument is that pot is bad and should therefore be outlawed...you're ironically doing the same thing I am. You are making arguments based on the details, outside of God's commandments.

So I would ask on this point: should we put people in jail and charge them with a felony for:
Having sex outside marriage?
For being homosexual?
How about for not tithing?
Speeding? (maybe a misdemeanor there?)

Long story short, unless you find something scriptural that explicitly states that God commands government to outlaw drugs, supporting prohibition is at odds with your answers to all of the above questions.

So since we are in fact both talking about the pros and cons of outlawing this - how do you feel the con of more people likely smoking stacks up against the idea that position supports Mexican cartels, kids joining gangs, and back alley killings?

Forget, for a moment, about the law and think about you, your family, your children. Are you okay with smoking pot in your immediate family? Do you find it a benefit?

First, we're discussing law. Why would we want to forget about the law?

Secondly, see the first quote. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord...and whether or not it is explicitly commanded in the bible, that includes not smoking marijuana, in moderation or otherwise. My children will be attending a combination of home school, co-ops, and private school...in part because of the gangs and drugs in today's schools.

...

Sometimes we just need to quit thinking about what should be legal or even what is "right" and think about what the godly response should be.

The rest of those verses are answered above.

Honestly, I think we're mostly in agreement - pot is bad, and not something that leads us to be more Christlike. You've quoted a lot of great verses in that regard, and I completely agree with that position. I'd even go so far as to say that if you knew of someone smoking pot inside your church for recreation, that would be a case to talk to them and eventually lead to church discipline.

The only point I disagree on the idea that somehow this should be a law. Since it is not explicitly stated, would you mind providing some reference as to why God's commands for Christians should become the legal law of the land? I don't think it's fair to say, "well, legalization will lead to more people smoking, and that dishonors God!" while simultaneously ignoring the cartels, incarceration, killings, gangs, etc. dishonor God.

Hope this doesn't come across the wrong way...don't do drugs, folks!

 

[Patriot]

But why debate? Let's talk about what we DO know about the effects of prohibition on smokersl

Arrests - Last year there were 858,408 arrests in the US for marijuana. That's a lot of people.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Marijuana#Data
- Money aside, let's just think about the amount of police time spent there. They're looking to "protect these folks from themselves" by arresting them, instead of looking for other criminals. To be fair, there isn't usually a lot of time spent doing detective work...but that makes things worse, as this happens disproportionately, because marijuana busts are very easy. Police "crack down" to keep the numbers up.

Most of what I've seen (which is limited to shows like COPS and a single ride-along) involves a routine stop and then discovering pot. That means they aren't taking as much time from stopping other criminals in order to bust pot smokers as you would like us to believe.

- Many of these people have no other crimes

If a thief has no other crimes does that make it okay to steal? This makes no sense.

- Jail isn't easy on a person; even if it's for a few days.

It's not supposed to be. That would be the deterrent factor.

- Prison time = training to be a better criminal.

Could I get a source for that?

I'm sure this has nothing to do with prisons being privately run and it being great for business.

Might want to look up the numbers on this. I know several states have laws in place prohibiting privatization of prisons. And I can almost guarantee you that the majority of prisons are not privately owned (the most recent data I could find was from 2000 and that amounted to a total of 153 facilities run privately in the entire US).

- Makes it tougher to get a job, even if you have no other convictions

Again, the deterrent factor. You shouldn't get a free pass when you break the law. There are consequences that you need to deal with.

Cartels - Marijuana Is the Top Revenue Generator for Mexican Cartels”
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/20...he-top-revenue-generator-for-mexican-cartels/
At least, that's what the FBI says.
- Anybody who supports prohibition supports this money going to the cartels. Pretending they don't exist or make money off of the black market doesn't change that. 28,000 related deaths in Mexico since the drug war broke out in 2006, and 60% of the cartels funding comes from - you guessed it - marijuana.

Seriously? This is a classic false dilemma. Guess what, I can support prohibition and still be against the cartels. . .

- Oh, and don't forget all the people being killed in Mexico. Let's pretend none of that is a result of said cartels.

It's terrible, but that doesn't mean we are responsible for it. For you to place that guilt on people is a bit presumptuous. Quite frankly, the people going out and buying illegal drugs are the ones supporting the cartels. You managed to shift the blame from those actually responsible to law-abiding citizens. Good job.

- Oh, and let's forget that these cartels are actively recruiting young (predominantly Mexican/etc) people in the US, helping to traffic this stuff.

Cartels are bad, yes. Cartels and their recruitment schemes will not go away if we legalize marijuana.

Gangs
- Even without help from cartels, lots of kids are getting help from their friendly neighborhood adults to help move drugs.
- Just being in this environment is an obvious detriment to becoming a law-abiding citizen

People are bad. Bad people do not miraculously become good when you legalize something. They will follow the money (harder drugs).

Gateway Drug
- It's a "gateway" because you're buying the stuff from a drug dealer who also sells cocaine. I think that comes down to common sense.

Okay. . .if the drug dealer sells marijuana and cocaine then legalizing marijuana does not remove drug dealers. You just contradicted your previous arguments.

As for "gateway" it's difficult to say. Common sense (if I have any) tells me that if I'm willing to try marijuana and I happen to like it, then I might be willing to try another drug to see if I like that as well.

- If one disagrees, would you care to show me some studies of medicinal marijuana users who are now hooked on cocaine in mass? Or, how about one contrasting the US with a country where marijuana is illegal?

Do such studies exist? I'm not real motivated to look. . .

- Think about the realistic application of this for a second. If many people are using harder drugs because they are buying marijuana from a shady drug dealer who carries said drugs, taking away the drug dealer's marijuana trade will help cut down on the people doing harder drugs. Woah!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say most kids who try a drug for the first time don't head to their local drug dealer. They most likely get it from a friend. Once hooked, then they need to head to the dealer. Would legalizing marijuana cut down on harder drug use? I think the difference would be negligible.

I'm simply asking people to avoid the kneejerk reaction of "omgosh, Fox News told me if we legalize, there will be chaos!". Aside fom that conflicting with the fact that countries who legalized it haven't imploded, we HAVE chaos now! We are incarcerating millions of people, and people can't leave their homes at night in Mexico due to the drug cartels that are largely supported by our prohibition. Said cartels have been increasing their presence in the US, especially in the southwest.

PS: on the "how dangerous is it?" debate...we have millions of pot smokers in the US. You all know some of them. How many marijuana-related deaths are you personally aware of?

So, for people who do support prohibition, please contrast that with the things listed above and explain how you believe marijuana to be more dangerous than prohibition.

I don't watch foxnews (I don't have cable). I don't think it is a kneejerk reaction. I don't support cartels (the people buying illegal drugs do).

 

[RyanB]

Most of what I've seen (which is limited to shows like COPS and a single ride-along) involves a routine stop and then discovering pot. That means they aren't taking as much time from stopping other criminals in order to bust pot smokers as you would like us to believe.

I said:

To be fair, there isn't usually a lot of time spent doing detective work...but that makes things worse, as this happens disproportionately, because marijuana busts are very easy. Police "crack down" to keep the numbers up.

IE: I'm not pretending there is a ton of detective work, nor trying to get people to believe that. But don't pretend that just because a cop busts someone on a routine traffic stop that there are no resources involved. Paperwork costs money. Courts cost money. Jail costs money. Loss of productivity for GDP (because the person can't get a job now) costs money. It costs a LOT to fight the war on marijuana. Of course, this isn't reason enough to legalize it, just saying it is what it is.

If a thief has no other crimes does that make it okay to steal? This makes no sense.

It's not supposed to be. That would be the deterrent factor.

Again, the deterrent factor. You shouldn't get a free pass when you break the law. There are consequences that you need to deal with.

People here who support prohibition are saying it's bad to smoke pot, so we should prevent them from doing so to the best of our ability.

My point is - so we're "helping" them by sticking them in jail with the rest of the prison population? Taking their livelihood away? That's not very helpful. Deterring murders is one thing. They are hurting other people.

It's one thing to deter me from stealing your stuff - I'm hurting you. It's another thing to deter me from hurting myself...by hurting me more.

Could I get a source for that?

Do you know what prison is like? What kind of people you are being exposed to? Yes, this is generalizing and not all prisons are very hardcore, but hanging around with hardened criminals is training to be a harder criminal.

I do not disagree that prison is also a deterrent; I'm simply stating that it is great training ground for criminal activity. If you want more on this than just obvious common sense, I suppose I can look for some studies linking "white collar" crimes to harder ones.

Might want to look up the numbers on this. I know several states have laws in place prohibiting privatization of prisons. And I can almost guarantee you that the majority of prisons are not privately owned (the most recent data I could find was from 2000 and that amounted to a total of 153 facilities run privately in the entire US).

264 in the US. Or we should say, 72% more private prisons than we had in the 2000 number you quoted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#Private_prisons_in_the_United_States

Only 3 states (to my knowlege) have banned private prisons. The thing about private prisons was more of a side comment than directly addressing marijuana. I'll just say this - if you are ever incarcerated, do you want to go to a place that has a profit motive to A) ensure you don't get out as quickly or B) to prevent you from becoming a reformed citizen? Just some food for thought.

Seriously? This is a classic false dilemma. Guess what, I can support prohibition and still be against the cartels. . .

I'm not trying to act like you love cartels. The problem still exists, though. The FBI says that Mexico's drug lords are supported by our black market. Do you disagree? Do you disagree that black market exists because of prohibition?

I do not feel that pretending a problem doesn't exist is any way to excuse it. Again, I'm not saying you're some sick person who is glad of the violence in Mexico, but it's simply not valid to not factor this into a position.

I know it sounds sort of weird to say aloud, "I support marijuana prohibition, even though I know it directly leads to billions of dollars in drug cartel money, violence, and murder in Mexico", but that's reality we live in.

If somebody can show me why God commands that we have a law prohibiting pot, I will of course reverse my position. In the meantime...while we're talking about pros and cons, let's not pretend the cons don't exist.

I'm really not trying to sound harsh, I'm simply asking that we all be honest.

Cartels are bad, yes. Cartels and their recruitment schemes will not go away if we legalize marijuana.


People are bad. Bad people do not miraculously become good when you legalize something. They will follow the money (harder drugs).

Yes, except there will be less money. Less money = less power. It's economics. Black markets are always a factor of economy.

Are you insinuating that if we legalize pot, pot smokers will reject the ability to buy it in store, go to the dark alleys, and buy heroine instead? I don't think so.

Okay. . .if the drug dealer sells marijuana and cocaine then legalizing marijuana does not remove drug dealers. You just contradicted your previous arguments.

Less marijuana sales = less market and income for dealers. Less market and income means they either survive on less, or compete.

Here's a scenario: the American people wake up and decide to eat 70% less fast food. Can you honestly say that there would be just as many fast food restaurants?

As for "gateway" it's difficult to say. Common sense (if I have any) tells me that if I'm willing to try marijuana and I happen to like it, then I might be willing to try another drug to see if I like that as well.

Do such studies exist? I'm not real motivated to look. . .

Studies showing there is no causal link between marijuana and harder drugs are all around. There is not one single study (that I am aware of) showing any correlation at all whatsoever to contradict this. I should add that when I do research I'm not looking for studies reinforcing my belief; I look for everything.

You don't need to read a book; simply spend a few minutes and google "is marijuana a gateway drug".

I'm going to go out on a limb and say most kids who try a drug for the first time don't head to their local drug dealer. They most likely get it from a friend. Once hooked, then they need to head to the dealer. Would legalizing marijuana cut down on harder drug use? I think the difference would be negligible.

I'd be inclined to agree that there won't be much difference one way or the other on heroine use. Just remember, though, that drug deals often go bad and there is a lot of associated crime, shootings, etc.

I don't watch foxnews (I don't have cable). I don't think it is a kneejerk reaction. I don't support cartels (the people buying illegal drugs do).

The drugs are illegal because we say they are. The discussion is about whether or not they should be illegal.

Also, like it or not, our black market does feed the cartels. I don't think it is responsible for us as Christians to ignore that. We'll boycott BP gas because they spilled, or Amazon because they sold a pedo book for a few days, but somehow we are good at compartmentalizing the real everyday effects of some of our country's policies.

I know I am going against the grain here, and I hope I'm not coming off the wrong way, or that I don't respect where you guys are coming from.

I'll add again - smoking is bad, don't do it, even if it gets legalized.

Edit:
One last thing; same thing I asked Abba. Fornication, cheating on a spouse, homosexuality, and not tithing are all things God clearly says are against his law. Do you support laws creating felony offenses and jail time on each of these items? Why or why not? Lastly, how do you feel your position on marijuana is any different?

 

[Durruck]

If somebody can show me why God commands that we have a law prohibiting pot, I will of course reverse my position.

You're asking for what cannot be provided. The Bible provides us examples of civil code in the Old Testament, and a lot of moral code through the rest of its pages. There are a lot of things that God calls wrong, wicked, or sin... never does he say "your leader needs to make a law governing this action."

 

[Lloren]

You're asking for what cannot be provided. The Bible provides us examples of civil code in the Old Testament, and a lot of moral code through the rest of its pages. There are a lot of things that God calls wrong, wicked, or sin... never does he say "your leader needs to make a law governing this action."

It can be provided. We are to be subject to the authorities (Romans 13) with the only caveat being if it conflicts directly with God's law. Since smoking pot doesn't conflict with God's law. ---> It's a sin for us to do it.

Now I agree with many here it shouldn't be illegal for the reasons already stated many times. (It only became illegal because of bad journalism and politics). http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/

But since this thread isn't "What Does the Government Say About..." I'll leave it at that.

 

[Sassamo]

Fornication, cheating on a spouse, homosexuality, and not tithing are all things God clearly says are against his law. Do you support laws creating felony offenses and jail time on each of these items? Why or why not? Lastly, how do you feel your position on marijuana is any different?

Support?
Yes, Yes, Yes, N/A

Why?
Sin, Sin, Sin, Not a Sin(Though I would still consider supporting it if it did end up being voted on)

How different from marijuana?
This question presumes I would have said no the the first question, which I clearly didn't.

<Oh, so you support forcing others to submit to whatever standards you extract from the Bible?>
No, I didn't say that. I said I would support the enactment of those laws. If the majority of the population all agreed, then it should become law.

Also, like it or not, our black market does feed the cartels. I don't think it is responsible for us as Christians to ignore that. We'll boycott BP gas because they spilled, or Amazon because they sold a pedo book for a few days, but somehow we are good at compartmentalizing the real everyday effects of some of our country's policies.

Personally, I find boycotting things like BP or Amazon useless. I also don't see that as a valid arguement against implementing a workaround to the stated problem. In your scenario, I would target the black market. An equivelant(well, exagerated for the point obviously) arguement would be to say that we'll just kill all the victims before the murders get to, then there would be no murderers... Target the problem, don't compromise in an 'ends justify the means' policy, just as Uzzah how that turned out.

The only point I disagree on the idea that somehow this should be a law. Since it is not explicitly stated, would you mind providing some reference as to why God's commands for Christians should become the legal law of the land?

Romans 13:3-4 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

First of all, I'm not sure why you differentiate between those we know are against God's commands, and those we believe are against God's commands. Also, God upholds the same expectations from everyone, Christian or not, it's just that Christians have had their sins paid for. There's no reason we shouldn't desire everyone to follow the same rules, unless we want to compromise ourselves and say, well... maybe we could be wrong and they could be right, so I don't want to impose on them in case I'm wrong. To be precise, yes, that's a possibility, but I don't beleive we should be anywhere near that line in our faith.

 

[RyanB]

You're asking for what cannot be provided. The Bible provides us examples of civil code in the Old Testament, and a lot of moral code through the rest of its pages. There are a lot of things that God calls wrong, wicked, or sin... never does he say "your leader needs to make a law governing this action."

That's exactly my point - my point is that you have no biblical foundation for supporting such a law. Any support for prohibition is something extra-biblical. How can you claim making a law is Christian thing to do if God didn't say to do it?

You're essentially saying that a lack of biblical evidence for your position equals evidence, ya know?

I'll ignore the rest of my last post, but I would really be interested to know your answer to the question about felony conviction for cheating on your spouse. I don't think anyone supports that (aside from Eric when he's being argumentative). But why don't we? God specifically calls out many times how much He detests sexual sin, and yet nobody feels there should be a law there.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say we as Christians have a strong natural bias towards marijuana prohibition simply because it's always been illegal. We never stopped to think about it biblically; it's just always been illegal and therefore we've never questioned that and the idea of ending prohibition seems like the devil.

Support?
Yes, Yes, Yes, N/A

Why?
Sin, Sin, Sin, Not a Sin(Though I would still consider supporting it if it did end up being voted on)

How different from marijuana?
This question presumes I would have said no the the first question, which I clearly didn't.

I really don't believe anybody can honestly say they would support such laws. And if we continue to be honest, I don't think we can think of a good explanation for why we arbitrarily support "enforcing God's law" on pot, and not anything else. Isn't this something to ponder?

Since I've known you for so long, I'll assume you said "yes" to those questions simply for the sake of argument. Of course, just because you answered those questions opposite of what the obviously baited answers are doesn't mean you have a very good position. Jesus said, "let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone". Who are you disagree with Him? Paul said to let God judge those outside the church, yet you would support making such laws? No way, dude.

If you feel smoking pot is a sin, then God has already made the law folks. We have no business creating our own punishments for that law. Not only is it not biblical, and we've been told exactly the opposite several times.

<Oh, so you support forcing others to submit to whatever standards you extract from the Bible?>
No, I didn't say that. I said I would support the enactment of those laws. If the majority of the population all agreed, then it should become law.

See above.

Personally, I find boycotting things like BP or Amazon useless. I also don't see that as a valid arguement against implementing a workaround to the stated problem. In your scenario, I would target the black market. An equivelant(well, exagerated for the point obviously) arguement would be to say that we'll just kill all the victims before the murders get to, then there would be no murderers... Target the problem, don't compromise in an 'ends justify the means' policy, just as Uzzah how that turned out.

Cartels, gangs, and dealers are a direct result of the black market. We can take away this black market. How do you feel that "preventing" people from smoking, which isn't even outlawed in God's word, is more important than severely limiting those problems.

First of all, I'm not sure why you differentiate between those we know are against God's commands, and those we believe are against God's commands. Also, God upholds the same expectations from everyone, Christian or not, it's just that Christians have had their sins paid for. There's no reason we shouldn't desire everyone to follow the same rules, unless we want to compromise ourselves and say, well... maybe we could be wrong and they could be right, so I don't want to impose on them in case I'm wrong. To be precise, yes, that's a possibility, but I don't beleive we should be anywhere near that line in our faith.

Yes Eric, God has the same expectations for everyone. Last I checked, God also took care of the punishment.

Would you mind pointing me to the part where we are to punish people for smoking pot (or breaking ANY of God's laws), especially at the vast cost we see today?



Folks, I'm about as conservative as they come, and I get it. None of us were alive the last time marijuana was legalized, so we've never really stopped to think about it.

Judgement and punishment for sinning is God's job, not ours. We were never told to do otherwise. This is "what God says". The bible doesn't say to put people in jail for doing something that might be a sin when not done medicinally. The bible says (and I know I'm repeating myself here)
1) Don't cast the first stone
2) Don't judge those outside the church
3) It's God's place to punish sinners, it's our place to forgive and love them

 

[Patriot]

I said:

IE: I'm not pretending there is a ton of detective work, nor trying to get people to believe that. But don't pretend that just because a cop busts someone on a routine traffic stop that there are no resources involved. Paperwork costs money. Courts cost money. Jail costs money. Loss of productivity for GDP (because the person can't get a job now) costs money. It costs a LOT to fight the war on marijuana. Of course, this isn't reason enough to legalize it, just saying it is what it is.

People here who support prohibition are saying it's bad to smoke pot, so we should prevent them from doing so to the best of our ability.

My point is - so we're "helping" them by sticking them in jail with the rest of the prison population? Taking their livelihood away? That's not very helpful. Deterring murders is one thing. They are hurting other people.

It's one thing to deter me from stealing your stuff - I'm hurting you. It's another thing to deter me from hurting myself...by hurting me more.

Do you know what prison is like? What kind of people you are being exposed to? Yes, this is generalizing and not all prisons are very hardcore, but hanging around with hardened criminals is training to be a harder criminal.

I do not disagree that prison is also a deterrent; I'm simply stating that it is great training ground for criminal activity. If you want more on this than just obvious common sense, I suppose I can look for some studies linking "white collar" crimes to harder ones.

Prison is not supposed to be nice. But again, no supporting documentation.

264 in the US. Or we should say, 72% more private prisons than we had in the 2000 number you quoted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#Private_prisons_in_the_United_States

Only 3 states (to my knowlege) have banned private prisons. The thing about private prisons was more of a side comment than directly addressing marijuana. I'll just say this - if you are ever incarcerated, do you want to go to a place that has a profit motive to A) ensure you don't get out as quickly or B) to prevent you from becoming a reformed citizen? Just some food for thought.

264 privately operated holding a total of no more than 99,000 offenders. The total inmate population in the US was almost 2.4 million in the US in 2008 (link). That's a whopping 4% of the total inmate population in privately held prisons. We can continue down this path if you like, but I seriously doubt whether such a small group is driving the entire train of prohibition. And I haven't seen any documentation that states these privately held prisons are paid on a per inmate basis.

I'm not trying to act like you love cartels. The problem still exists, though. The FBI says that Mexico's drug lords are supported by our black market. Do you disagree? Do you disagree that black market exists because of prohibition?

Nope, I agree they are supported by the black market. I agree the black market exists in part due to marijuana. However. . .
A. You seem to think legalizing marijuana will make cartels go away. . .
B. You're placing the blame on people for outlawing something rather than on people who break the law and keep the black market alive and thriving. The problem is the drug users and the drug makers.

I do not feel that pretending a problem doesn't exist is any way to excuse it. Again, I'm not saying you're some sick person who is glad of the violence in Mexico, but it's simply not valid to not factor this into a position.

I'm not pretending a problem doesn't exist. I just disagree with you on what the actual problem is. . .

I know it sounds sort of weird to say aloud, "I support marijuana prohibition, even though I know it directly leads to billions of dollars in drug cartel money, violence, and murder in Mexico", but that's reality we live in.

I support all sorts of laws even though they have unfortunate side effects due to sinful people.

If somebody can show me why God commands that we have a law prohibiting pot, I will of course reverse my position.

Amusing. We have all sorts of laws I'm sure you support that have no direct command from God in the Bible, but you're willing to make this one the exception? Fornication, homosexuality, and adultery are all specified in the Bible, do you support laws against them? (Yes I'm totally stealing your question to Abba because it directly applies)

In the meantime...while we're talking about pros and cons, let's not pretend the cons don't exist.

That's the second time in this post you have insinuated I pretend a problem doesn't exist. I'll answer with the same phrase:
I'm not pretending a problem doesn't exist. I just disagree with you on what the actual problem is. . .

I'm really not trying to sound harsh, I'm simply asking that we all be honest.

A direct accusation is not softened by a smiley face. Show me where I have been dishonest, or retract the accusation.

Yes, except there will be less money. Less money = less power. It's economics. Black markets are always a factor of economy.

Are you insinuating that if we legalize pot, pot smokers will reject the ability to buy it in store, go to the dark alleys, and buy heroine instead? I don't think so.

That really depends. If your black market price is cheaper (supply and demand).

Less marijuana sales = less market and income for dealers. Less market and income means they either survive on less, or compete.

Here's a scenario: the American people wake up and decide to eat 70% less fast food. Can you honestly say that there would be just as many fast food restaurants?

Less market and less income for the dealers means more desperate dealers. Sounds like more death and in-fighting to me. Also sounds like cartels will have to start branching into other illegal activities. They will not go quietly into the night.

Studies showing there is no causal link between marijuana and harder drugs are all around. There is not one single study (that I am aware of) showing any correlation at all whatsoever to contradict this. I should add that when I do research I'm not looking for studies reinforcing my belief; I look for everything.

You don't need to read a book; simply spend a few minutes and google "is marijuana a gateway drug".

It's a contested issue. I'm in no position to make a determination.

I'd be inclined to agree that there won't be much difference one way or the other on heroine use. Just remember, though, that drug deals often go bad and there is a lot of associated crime, shootings, etc.

The drugs are illegal because we say they are. The discussion is about whether or not they should be illegal.

I believe they should be illegal. I don't think our country will be better for legalizing it.

Also, like it or not, our black market does feed the cartels. I don't think it is responsible for us as Christians to ignore that. We'll boycott BP gas because they spilled, or Amazon because they sold a pedo book for a few days, but somehow we are good at compartmentalizing the real everyday effects of some of our country's policies.

I'm pretending, I'm ignoring, I'm compartmentalizing and I'm dishonest. How about we stop with the insinuations? I realize that the black market feeds cartels. But I don't believe that going with what I see as the "lesser evil" is the proper solution. And for your information, I am boycotting the black market (and the cartels) and have since I was born.

I know I am going against the grain here, and I hope I'm not coming off the wrong way, or that I don't respect where you guys are coming from.

Quite frankly, several statements you have made sound like you believe I have my head buried in the sand because of my position. It would be nice if you just acknowledge that we both have thought through the issue and have come to different conclusions.

 

[Abba San]

It would be nice if you just acknowledge that we both have thought through the issue and have come to different conclusions.

There you go - as with many of the discussions on the forum, that is something we definitely need to acknowledge.

 

[RiverTigress]

RyanB,

I essentially agree with the idea of what you're saying, just not in the application of it to this particular issue. Politically speaking I am a libertarian, not because I agree with the libertartian platform, but because I don't think it's right to expect the government to do the job of the church, and there's a certain amount of hyprocrisy to trying to legislate morality while at the same time holding a conviction that it's not possible to individually uphold by human strength alone. Sometimes people need the freedom to sin to be convicted of God's word through its consequences and to realize their need for His help in their lives, but where the law needs to step in is where other people can get hurt, and this is what I see as being different with marijuana or any other judgment-impairing substance.

Yes, marijuana might be harmless enough so long as people stay home, but the fact that it impairs the judgement and other mental capabilities makes it illogical to expect users to stay home with it, and it's not so harmless anymore out on the roads or in the workplace where people's actions have a much greater impact on others. Plus there's a lot of societal considerations to it too, for example do we really want lots of people getting high on election days? I mean, we don't have a problem with legislating and financing almost a decade and a half of education for all our citizens because we recognize the dangers of letting people be intellectually stupid, so why undermine that by allowing mind-altering agents of any kind? And I also would include alcohol in that reasoning too and am not very convinced by the prohibition argument because I don't really see the problems with prohibition being greater than the problems with drunk driving, domestic abuse, broken homes, and stunted spirituality that come along with alcohol, just that the crime gangs and stuff are more sensationalist and get more media time so we fear it more.

 

[Lloren]

I am a libertarian, not because I agree with the libertartian platform

I don't understand this statement. That's like saying your a Christian, but you don't believe in the Bible.

A libertarian has a certain dialectic view on government imposition in our lives.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#B6

but because I don't think it's right to expect the government to do the job of the church, and there's a certain amount of hyprocrisy to trying to legislate morality while at the same time holding a conviction that it's not possible to individually uphold by human strength alone.

Great statement and I agree. It sounds to me like what you are saying lines up with Constitutionalism.

 

[RiverTigress]

I don't understand this statement. That's like saying your a Christian, but you don't believe in the Bible.

A libertarian has a certain dialectic view on government imposition in our lives.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#B6

Great statement and I agree. It sounds to me like what you are saying lines up with Constitutionalism.

I mean classical libertarianism, not the U.S. Libertarian Party and how it wants to define the philosophy. My actual political affiliation is Independent, and I tend to look more at individual stances and records rather than just looking at party alone.

Constitutionalism sounds like it could be a good fit too, but how can it be prevented for a constitution to not end up going outside of acceptable parameters?

 

[Lloren]

Constitutionalism sounds like it could be a good fit too, but how can it be prevented for a constitution to not end up going outside of acceptable parameters?

I wish I knew. The forefathers of the USA struggled with too (see Federalist Papers). If you come up with something let me know.

 

[Sassamo]

I'll ignore the rest of my last post, but I would really be interested to know your answer to the question about felony conviction for cheating on your spouse. I don't think anyone supports that (aside from Eric when he's being argumentative). But why don't we? God specifically calls out many times how much He detests sexual sin, and yet nobody feels there should be a law there.
...
Since I've known you for so long, I'll assume you said "yes" to those questions simply for the sake of argument. Of course, just because you answered those questions opposite of what the obviously baited answers are doesn't mean you have a very good position. Jesus said, "let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone". Who are you disagree with Him? Paul said to let God judge those outside the church, yet you would support making such laws? No way, dude.

Just because we have a history of eerily being able to finish each others sentences, doesn't mean I'm lying or arguementative just because I disagree. I'm not trying to cast any stones at someone. There are laws, laws which people choose to put in place, and we all follow them, that's what a democracy is, that's what we are a part of. I may not agree with a law everyone else puts in place, but I still abide by it. At some point, it was determined that murder was illegal, but, that's one of God's laws. Should we repeal that law? Who are we to impose our secret societies bylaws on the innocent bystanders of the nation? No, they chose this law, along with all the others, and I will show my support for it. Am I the judge, jury, and executioner, no. Just because I think we'd be better off not allowing certain things in our lives doesn't mean I'm out there pointing fingers at people, proclaiming myself to be better than them.

Cartels, gangs, and dealers are a direct result of the black market. We can take away this black market. How do you feel that "preventing" people from smoking, which isn't even outlawed in God's word, is more important than severely limiting those problems.

Aside from the fact that as other stated, I don't beleive this will take away the black market, my point is, if we want to take on the black market, then we should address the black market, not hope that they will go away naturally by lowering our own standards to their level.

I would like to comment on some other things, but I don't have the time right now, nor am I yet sure that they would be profitable to say, so I'm going to give this a little more time before I proceed.