Proposition 19

[Patriot]

What you do in private is between God, your family (if you live under your families roof) and you.

Paul would disagree. If you are a believer and living in sin, then it is the responsibility of the church to discipline. (1 Corinthians 5)

But it did lower the crime rate. No more prohibition put the underground and mafia out of business (well they found other things to do) but it did decrease the crime.

This has to be the most amusing (and pointless) statistic ever. If you legalize something that was formerly illegal, of course the crime rate will lower. . .

If we legalized murder then all those who commit murder are no longer committing a crime. Hence, the crime rate drops.

And the mafia is far from out of business. Yep, they are still around today, after almost 80 years of legalized alcohol. Just the same as the criminal organizations that peddle marijuana will not go out of business. They follow the money.

 

[Lloren]

If we legalized murder then all those who commit murder are no longer committing a crime. Hence, the crime rate drops.

Difference being is that Bible is clear on murder being wrong, but vague on marijuana. I seem to recall another group that tried to make more laws than what God gave...

 

[Tek7]

Although the Bible does not address marijuana directly, it does discuss other mind-altering drugs. Specifically, the Bible addresses the use of drugs in the book of Galatians:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

So, where are the drugs mentioned in this verse? Actually, the word translated "sorcery" is the Greek word pharmakeia, from which we get the English word "pharmacy." The primary meaning is "the use or the administering of drugs" (usually associated with sorcery or idolatry). Since this verse comes from a list of things that if practiced would preclude one from heaven, this should be a reasonably strong suggestion that the Christian should not practice drug use. In addition, the book of Revelation lists drug use as one of the things for which the unrepentant will suffer the wrath of God.

The Bible has a lot to say about alcohol. At the time, there was no hard (distilled) liquor, just wine and beer (which was more diluted at that time then it is now). Even so, the Bible has much to say about people who used wine to get drunk. One was Lot, who got drunk and slept with his daughters. Others sold girls to get wine to get drunk. The Bible warns about the bad effects of getting drunk - seeing strange sights and being confused, saying stupid things, making poor decisions, vomiting, getting involved in fights, and losing one's wealth. We are warned not to join with those people. The consequences of such behavior is judgment. Jesus Himself used two examples of those who will be drunk when God comes to judge the world. God's judgment of such behavior does not paint a pretty picture. The New Testament condemns drunkenness and warns that those who engage in that behavior will not inherit the kingdom of God (i.e., heaven).

The Old Testament warns the priests not to go into God's house drunk, or they will die. In the New Testament, those who serve in the body of Christ are not to be addicted to wine or any other sordid thing. Even those who do not directly serve in the church are warned not to be addicted to wine. Finally, the New Testament commands us to not get drunk, but be filled with the Spirit of God:

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. (Ephesians 5:18)

Does marijuana get one intoxicated? Even proponents of marijuana usage encourage users never to drive a motor vehicle while using marijuana. Why is this? Because when one use marijuana, one is legally intoxicated and incapable of clear thinking and reasonable reactions. Being intoxicated is clearly condemned in scripture. So, if one uses drugs or anything else to escape and get high, or is addicted to these substances, it is against the commands of scripture and inappropriate for Christian participation.

Source: Is It Okay for Christians to Use Marijuana (Cannabis) and Other Drugs?

Further points are discussed in the full article.

 

[silverleaf]

well so from a biblical point of view we can use it, but responsibly like alcohol. Moderation.
They didn't have pot back in those days, so I'd imagine it would be hard to draw comparisons
Also pot shouldn't be considered together with the other mind altering drugs. Many Americans in fact rank it less dangerous than smoking and alcohol in some study (google it).
Either way, I'm steering clear, and in the first place, as with cigarettes, the very fact that there is a DEMAND for it means the health promotion department has some serious work to do.

However, support should be pulled for people who do get involved with pot. Why waste tax payer's $$$ on curing them of drug related diseases? I won't judge you if you smoke a joint, but don't come bawwwing when the consequences come when I've warned you a thousand times.

 

[Patriot]

Difference being is that Bible is clear on murder being wrong, but vague on marijuana. I seem to recall another group that tried to make more laws than what God gave...

Actually, my point with that statement was that legalizing anything that was formerly illegal would lower the crime rate.

As for the Bible being vague on marijuana:
1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Can you do that while high? Or intoxicated?

 

[ewoksrule]

sure can, I have actually had amazing bible studies while high. The text came alive in ways I had not thought of previously. This led to deep discussions with non believers who were very intriuged by the defense given. Never had something like that drunk, it's just not the same.

 

[Lloren]

lol Ewoks. Before I met Jesus I was deeply addicted to marijuana and other drugs. When Jesus came into my life He healed the desire for those things and made it empty. Not that I asked Him, but He literally took away the desire to do those things. I kept trying, but it was dull and lifeless when I did.

There is a certain deadness when we go back to those things that don't make us alive anymore, but it is a process of sanctification for everyone. To some their conscience permits them to eat meat, but others it does not. Should the stronger brother cause the younger brother to stumble? No! But building each other up in love will cause us to grow into Him who called us in the first place.

Praise God it is His Church! (and not one of our design!).

 

[ewoksrule]

hehe yeah I say that more in shock/jest then truth. I would not condone anyone getting high and studying the Bible. However, if you are already high you might as well be reading the bible vs somethign else heheh.

lol Ewoks. Before I met Jesus I was deeply addicted to marijuana and other drugs. When Jesus came into my life He healed the desire for those things and made it empty. Not that I asked Him, but He literally took away the desire to do those things. I kept trying, but it was dull and lifeless when I did.

There is a certain deadness when we go back to those things that don't make us alive anymore, but it is a process of sanctification for everyone. To some their conscience permits them to eat meat, but others it does not. Should the stronger brother cause the younger brother to stumble? No! But building each other up in love will cause us to grow into Him who called us in the first place.

Praise God it is His Church! (and not one of our design!).

This is very true in my life and an amazing supernatural thing God does for us. Praise God that He has removed my desire for these things as well.

 

[Cypher]

I personally believe that all things have a purpose and a place. I also believe Government is put in place to protect it's citizens from that which would harm them, this includes drugs and harmful substances.

Prop 19. specifically legalizes marijuana for personal use. This is dangerous as its most common use is a hallucinogenic drug. This is something that the Government should protect the public against this use and thus falls into the jurisdiction of governmental regulation. Other things such as alcohol and cigarettes should be banned too, but they have unfortunately become too intrenched into our society that it would be difficult (at best) to completely ban them from society (consider what happened during Prohibition period of American history). It would be nice to have alcohol and cigarettes removed, but again, it would be extremely difficult to do.

Also there are plenty of useful means for alcohol. It's in a ton of medicines and a bunch of cleaning supplies. Even Paul used alcohol for medical reasons (see 1 Timothy 5:23).

It's obvious the right thing to do is to vote "No" on Prop. 19. However, I do believe there may be uses for Marijuana in the future (possibly as hunting bait?). ;P

 

[Lloren]

I read this tonight. A pastor's viewpoint on pot.

http://allsoulsmissoula.org/2008/06/jesus-pot.html

 

[Cypher]

I read this tonight. A pastor's viewpoint on pot.

http://allsoulsmissoula.org/2008/06/jesus-pot.html

Wow. God smoking weed in Genesis 15? That's a BIG misinterpretation of Scripture. Abraham saw God as a smoking pot (as in a furnace, not the weed) walking between the animal halves, sealing by Himself the blood covenant to give the Promise Land (Israel) to Abraham's descendants.

I'll agree God wouldn't love me any more or less if I smoke pot, but I still believe smoking is wrong. I also would agree that Christ commanded that I honor and glorify God in all that I do (1 Corinthians 10:31). But can you really honor God while high on pot?

If I am to be the Temple of God (see 1 Corinthians 3:16-17), I should maintain its holiness by living righteously, not defile it with pot, alcohol, tattoos, or other things like it.

As for looking down on those that do smoke pot. I agree with that pastor's message, but in a very different way. We're all called to be like Christ, to love the sinner, but hate the sin. This is most simply taken in the form of voting no on Prop 19. instead offering programs and other means for which pot addicts can receive treatment to get out of their addictions.

Thanks for the article, Lloren. It was quite an interesting read.

 

[Lloren]

I agree. The Genesis 15 interpretation is a big stretch and probably meant as a joke there. I also agree treatment programs are a part of promoting the message of loving the person but hating the sin, but I disagree with the concept of spending taxpayers money on them.

In my opinion it would be better if we the church stepped up and offered these types of things rather than making the government (ala, we all pay) do it.

 

[Cypher]

..but I disagree with the concept of spending taxpayers money on them.

In my opinion it would be better if we the church stepped up and offered these types of things rather than making the government (aka, we all pay) do it.

That's a good point. I'd be up for either, but it would be nice to see the Church up and running on that.

 

[Lazarus]

I personally believe that all things have a purpose and a place. I also believe Government is put in place to protect it's citizens from that which would harm them, this includes drugs and harmful substances.

Prop 19. specifically legalizes marijuana for personal use. This is dangerous as its most common use is a hallucinogenic drug. This is something that the Government should protect the public against this use and thus falls into the jurisdiction of governmental regulation. Other things such as alcohol and cigarettes should be banned too, but they have unfortunately become too intrenched into our society that it would be difficult (at best) to completely ban them from society (consider what happened during Prohibition period of American history). It would be nice to have alcohol and cigarettes removed, but again, it would be extremely difficult to do.

Also there are plenty of useful means for alcohol. It's in a ton of medicines and a bunch of cleaning supplies. Even Paul used alcohol for medical reasons (see 1 Timothy 5:23).

It's obvious the right thing to do is to vote "No" on Prop. 19. However, I do believe there may be uses for Marijuana in the future (possibly as hunting bait?). ;P

Question time!

Why is the government supposed to protect the public from having the ability to get high on hallucinogenic drugs?

Why do you believe that alcohol and cigarettes should remain legal if you believe marijuana is the same and should be outlawed?(The whole "it would be difficult" argument doesn't really make any sense at all, since banning other drugs hasn't gone too well either).

Also, if our government is supposed to protect us from "that which would harm us", do you believe mosquitoes and ticks should also be outlawed?

By the way, according to wikipedia marijuana is legal to use as a medicine in Canada, Austria, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Israel, Italy, Finland, and Portugal. So if alcohol is okay for that reason, why not marijuana?

And lastly, how is it "obvious" that the right thing to do here is vote no? I counted about thirty posts previous to yours and most of them disagreed with eachother.

 

[ewoksrule]

I love that link form Lloren, that guy really understands the Gospel!

Pot is not a hallucinogenic drug, perhaps if laced with something (which can be common) or its the winner of this years Cannabis cup, you might have some small audio hallucinations, but as for the common use being a hallucinogenic, that is flat misinformation and false.

Using the body is a temple verse against Tattoos, Alcohol use, and Pot is using it as a hammer and is as sinful as any sin.

Many healthy Church pastors and members use Alcohol with moderation, self control, and discipline. Personally, I have been drinking 2-3 times a week for 10 years and never once been drunk or done anything sinful because of it. I am glad I was taught liberty and self-control in my church and not just handed down "the Law" as seems to be the desire of some in this thread.

Pot is not a "one-hit your stoned out of your gourd drug". You can use moderation and self-control and do just fine without crossing a line. (i.e getting drunk)

Personally, it is not obvious at all, it is quite vague....I am voting yes on this proposition and I am not the only disciple of Jesus voting this way.

 

[Patriot]

I love how Michael Medved addresses this issue with callers to his radio program.

His question to proponents of legalization is always "do you believe the country be better or worse off if more people smoked weed?"

If you can truthfully answer "better off" to that question, I'd like to know your reasons why.

 

[ewoksrule]

I'm not sure that question matters, unfortunatly. I don't think the country is any better off with more people gambling or reading porn but that's still legal. There are lots of freedoms I would take away if I went by that standard.

 

[Cypher]

Question time!

Why is the government supposed to protect the public from having the ability to get high on hallucinogenic drugs?

What is the purpose of government? I have my own opinions, but I'd like to hear yours. Government is God's enforcer of justice (see Romans 13:1-7). As such, a hallucinogenic drug (such as pot or alcohol) causes more harm than it does good. Not just to the person himself but also to those around him.

Why do you believe that alcohol and cigarettes should remain legal if you believe marijuana is the same and should be outlawed? (The whole "it would be difficult" argument doesn't really make any sense at all, since banning other drugs hasn't gone too well either).

I don't believe alcohol or cigarettes should remain legal. I would love for them to be banned. But to a point. Alcohol for instance is a great aid in the medical field, but that's when it is taken in moderation. I can't think of a "good" use for cigarettes, but I'm sure with proper research there could be a profitable use for them. However, their current use (i.e. Beer, cigarettes, etc.) is a misuse of something God has created.

Also currently there are major companies that produce cigarettes and alcoholic beverages. To ban both would demolish corporations that have many people under their employment. I currently don't know of any major corporation that produces and sells pot. Thus removing alcohol and cigarettes would be hard. We currently have the ability of preventing marijuana from reaching that point.

Also, if our government is supposed to protect us from "that which would harm us", do you believe mosquitoes and ticks should also be outlawed?

If only that could be. Unfortunately, I don't believe we have the ability of completely wiping out every tick and mosquito on the planet. But that would be an interesting idea.

However, you also have to realize that everything has a place and purpose (Ecclesiastes 3:1). What that may be (other than annoyance), is beyond me. I'm only human. I don't claim to know everything.

By the way, according to wikipedia marijuana is legal to use as a medicine in Canada, Austria, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Israel, Italy, Finland, and Portugal. So if alcohol is okay for that reason, why not marijuana?

I wasn't against marijuana being used in the medical field. However, I would be very hesitant for it as I don't believe we have found a really beneficial use for marijuana. However, Prop. 19 isn't about using marijuana in the medical field. It's for the legalization of marijuana for personal use.

And lastly, how is it "obvious" that the right thing to do here is vote no? I counted about thirty posts previous to yours and most of them disagreed with eachother.

Again, Prop 19 is for the personal use of marijuana, not for it being used for medical purposes. Thus, I made the comment I did. I guess it was out of line. Sorry about that.

 

[Odale]

I don't think you were out of line, I don't think Laz is out of line either.

 

[silverleaf]

*cough*
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_16475711?source=most_viewed
*cough* get me my meds plx *cough cough* too much pot today

I think the only good this will achieve is putting these illegal folks out of business.

BOULDER CREEK -- It's no surprise that Santa Cruz County is home to a multimillion-dollar marijuana trade. From pot farms high in the Santa Cruz Mountains to dispensaries in many towns, the flourishing but subtle marijuana economy is the livelihood of hundreds, if not thousands, making it at least as viable as the region's pre-eminent strawberry business.

Tuesday, California voters will decide whether to legalize marijuana, not just for the sick but for recreational users, ushering in a whole new audience for the long-established industry. In spite of the anticipated spike in demand, however, the prospect of legalization has put many local growers and retailers, comfortable with the current ambiguities of the marketplace, on edge about what might come.