Proposition 19

Patriot said:
Aside from the fact that those statistics are 10 years old, I don't see 55% as a "vast" majority. But perhaps your definition of vast and mine differ?
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Technically, drug laws restrain everyone.

It's actually 58.1% of the population that these paws don't restrain (to use your terminology, Patriot), look at the first table. That's still a majority but certainly not vast like you previously stated.

Additionally, these figures are very likely the most accurate and most in-depth around. I assume we will have more data when the census info is published?
 
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I think God proved laws don't restrain people (see Moses and the tablets), but rather they expose our need of a Savior.

So if we carried this to the N-th degree we might say "Let's make more laws" so we can expose 'sin'! I think we hold the danger of the Pharisees if we do so by adding on to God has said with our own desires for behavior that have nothing to do with what God wants from us.

Personally I think building laws around the 'new law' (love -fulfills the ten) will have more mileage than other types of behavior modification laws. (Fine line there as you could construe neighborly 'love' in many legal restrictions)
 
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technically speaking, Prop 19 would have removed an existing law, not created a new one.

Granted they're not on the same level, but it'd be like if we decided murder was okay next week.
 
Odale said:
It's actually 58.1% of the population that these paws don't restrain (to use your terminology, Patriot), look at the first table.
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I'm not seeing it. I pulled the highest percentage from the 2001 column (latest info). And I just realized I made a mistake. The actual number (bottom right) is 41.7%. This is the percentage of the population over 12 that claimed they had tried drugs. Not even a simple majority.
 
Durruck said:
technically speaking, Prop 19 would have removed an existing law, not created a new one.

Granted they're not on the same level, but it'd be like if we decided murder was okay next week.
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Yeah! Like, if the Supreme Court decided that abortion was wrong one day and okay the next!

So uh, technically speaking we do this kind of thing all the time.
 
Lazarus said:
Yeah! Like, if the Supreme Court decided that abortion was wrong one day and okay the next!

So uh, technically speaking we do this kind of thing all the time.
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I'm calling you on another possible exaggeration. I'd like to see your references for the times this has happened that qualifies your "all the time" statement. So far, you have one example. . .
 
Patriot said:
I'm calling you on another possible exaggeration. I'd like to see your references for the times this has happened that qualifies your "all the time" statement. So far, you have one example. . .
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Where would we be without sensationalism and reckless hyperbole, Patriot??
 
Late to this thread and as such haven't gotten a chance to read all of it, so probably repeating things here (sorry), but I support legalizing marijuana. Here's why:

  • First, don't use marijuana, unless for pain. I don't care how we feel about whether or not it should be illegal; it's illegal, so it's sinning. Only when we have a higher command from God do we get to break the government's law.
  • If/when marijuana is legalized, don't smoke it, unless you need it for pain. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good to do; it causes cancer and impairs judgment.
  • The bible says the government has 2 functions: submit to God and bear the sword. God allows us to do stupid things, so should the government (assuming it doesn't trounce on others' freedoms).
  • It's easy to get anyway. I'm not saying that in itself justifies it, what I am saying is that it nullifies the "well this law helps prevent people from smoking it" argument.
  • Drug cartels. Most of the money comes from pot. I've heard estimations of 80%.
  • Gangs. Most of the money comes from pot.
  • Gateway drug. People think marijuana is somehow a "gateway" drug to harder drugs. It certainly is, but only because it's illegal - IE: you have to deal with shady characters to get it. Those same people sell coke/etc. Think about it this way: why are cigarettes not a gateway drug, but MJ is?
  • Prison complex. Our prisons are privately owned and there is BIG MONEY in keeping our populace in jail over smoking something that is less harmful than a cigarette (but of course not harmless).

TL;DR: don't do drugs, but prohibition leads directly to harder criminal offenses, supports cartels, gives incentive to imprison people - all while completely failing to prevent use. Kids do it anyway and end up in gangs because of the black market.
 
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Lazarus said:
Must you bring those pesky facts and logic into this?! It drives me crazy when people do that.
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Haha, my bad.

So, I read through the whole thread finally, and wanted to talk to a few points. I should state that I think marijuana should be treated the same as cigarettes/alcohol - 21, designated smoking areas, and taxed.

There seems to be a bit of disagreement about how harmful marijuana really is. I'd personally put it at less harmful/addictive than cigarettes sold in store, due to the hundreds of added chemicals.

But why debate? Let's talk about what we DO know about the effects of prohibition on smokersl

Arrests - Last year there were 858,408 arrests in the US for marijuana. That's a lot of people.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Marijuana#Data
- Money aside, let's just think about the amount of police time spent there. They're looking to "protect these folks from themselves" by arresting them, instead of looking for other criminals. To be fair, there isn't usually a lot of time spent doing detective work...but that makes things worse, as this happens disproportionately, because marijuana busts are very easy. Police "crack down" to keep the numbers up.
- Many of these people have no other crimes
- Jail isn't easy on a person; even if it's for a few days.
- Prison time = training to be a better criminal. I'm sure this has nothing to do with prisons being privately run and it being great for business.
- Makes it tougher to get a job, even if you have no other convictions

Cartels - Marijuana Is the Top Revenue Generator for Mexican Cartels”
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/20...he-top-revenue-generator-for-mexican-cartels/
At least, that's what the FBI says.
- Anybody who supports prohibition supports this money going to the cartels. Pretending they don't exist or make money off of the black market doesn't change that. 28,000 related deaths in Mexico since the drug war broke out in 2006, and 60% of the cartels funding comes from - you guessed it - marijuana.
- Oh, and don't forget all the people being killed in Mexico. Let's pretend none of that is a result of said cartels.
- Oh, and let's forget that these cartels are actively recruiting young (predominantly Mexican/etc) people in the US, helping to traffic this stuff.

Gangs
- Even without help from cartels, lots of kids are getting help from their friendly neighborhood adults to help move drugs.
- Just being in this environment is an obvious detriment to becoming a law-abiding citizen

Gateway Drug
- It's a "gateway" because you're buying the stuff from a drug dealer who also sells cocaine. I think that comes down to common sense.
- If one disagrees, would you care to show me some studies of medicinal marijuana users who are now hooked on cocaine in mass? Or, how about one contrasting the US with a country where marijuana is illegal?
- Think about the realistic application of this for a second. If many people are using harder drugs because they are buying marijuana from a shady drug dealer who carries said drugs, taking away the drug dealer's marijuana trade will help cut down on the people doing harder drugs. Woah!



I'm simply asking people to avoid the kneejerk reaction of "omgosh, Fox News told me if we legalize, there will be chaos!". Aside fom that conflicting with the fact that countries who legalized it haven't imploded, we HAVE chaos now! We are incarcerating millions of people, and people can't leave their homes at night in Mexico due to the drug cartels that are largely supported by our prohibition. Said cartels have been increasing their presence in the US, especially in the southwest.

PS: on the "how dangerous is it?" debate...we have millions of pot smokers in the US. You all know some of them. How many marijuana-related deaths are you personally aware of?

So, for people who do support prohibition, please contrast that with the things listed above and explain how you believe marijuana to be more dangerous than prohibition. :)
 
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Just a quick reminder of two things:

1) Proposition 19 did not pass and is done - for a while at least. So, I'm tempted to close this thread or move it to another forum - maybe under general.

2) This forum is, What Does God Say About... I've enjoyed the back and forth banter - but it seems to have long since drifted into the - "this is what I think - feel - understand" and not so much the - "What does God say about..."

If anyone has anything to add from scripture or an application of scripture - please do. Apart from that, I don't want to continue discussing the merits of legalizing marijuana under What Does God Say About... We can keep the discussion going - just not in this forum.

So get in any additional comments you want to make before the end of the weekend. Thanks.
 
I won't dispute your opinions, for many various reasons. I may not agree with your assertions, but that doesn't mean that they can't be true. In the end, I could really care less if the government makes it legal. There are plenty of things that are legal that violate my moral standards on account of my faith. Subsequently, I won't be participating in them.

However, I feel the need to call you out on a specific point:

PS: on the "how dangerous is it?" debate...we have millions of pot smokers in the US. You all know some of them. How many marijuana-related deaths are you personally aware of?
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That's an unfair question. I know three pot-heads. They have never killed anyone while OVI on marijunan. But that's anecdotal evidence, which can be shaky.

I also personally know at least 100 people that have driven while intoxicated by alcohol - most of them that did it while under the legal drinking age, and none of them have killed anyone. So should drunk driving laws and age restrictions for purchasing alcohol be repealed?

I could not even begin to count the number of people I personally know that have texted while driving. None of them have caused a crash. Should texting/driving bans be repealed?

I know far more people that have fallen asleep at the wheel and caused crashes. Should driving after being awake 16 hours be banned?

Opium comes from poppies, which grow in abundance in Afghanistan. The heroin problem is terrible here, and the money supports the very terrorists that our military are currently fighting. Let's grow our own poppies, make our own heroin, and distribute it for kids that are currently buying it illegally, just so we can fight terrorists more efficiently. Besides, some European countries give out heroin as a pain reliever, so it must be okay!

Where do you draw the line at taking down drug cartels with domestic production and legalization? Where do you draw the line at safety while driving?

Just food for thought.

*edit*

Abba San, when I started typing this, you hadn't replied yet. Please don't think I ignored your request for change to keep the discussion forum-appropriate.
 
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lol - I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU POSTED THAT POST AFTER MINE!!!

Durruck said:
Abba San, when I started typing this, you hadn't replied yet. Please don't think I ignored your request for change to keep the discussion forum-appropriate.
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lol - I knew that, Durruck
 
Thanks Abba. I guess on these I would say...
1) Prop 19 didn't pass, but I think most people can agree the day won't be long, regardless of whether or not you support legalization.

2) What does God say about a country prohibiting marijuana? Directly? Nothing. One could make a very good case for not using marijuana personally, but I don't think there is any validity to say that we have biblical reason for outlawing marijuana.

Here's why I feel it is important to weigh the merits, whether or not this is the best forum or not:
A) Ok, so there is no biblical reason in and of itself to outlaw drugs. Now what? Are there other reasons we should outlaw it that there is a biblical case for?
B) Do people realize that folks are dying because of prohibition? I don't think they do; it's easy to ignore or not be aware of things that are not on your front door. We're not murdering them directly, but prohibition is causing these people to be killed. That's something God has something to say about.

The same goes for pretty much everything else on that list - our society and church is affected. However, without clear biblical direction on having a law to prohibit use...we need to weigh the pros and cons, and THEN use our biblical knowledge to decide if prohibition is a good law for society.

In other words, we need to get beyond kneejerk reactions of "hey pot doesn't hurt anyone!" or "hey, pot is the devil!" to have any sort of discussion on the biblical merits.

Edit: I see replies...well in all fairness he did say "get your comments in before the weekend" :)
 
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I guess I'll ask a direct question in reference to my last post.

Abba,
Forum theme aside, do you agree that it isn't possible to discuss biblical merit until we discuss specifics? IE: I can't make a biblical case for preventing deaths in Mexico unless I first link prohibition to the drug war in Mexico.
 
Would there be deaths in Mexico if we stopped using marijuana? Legalization isn't the only solution to solving the problem of international murder.

From a biblical perspective, the first verses that come to mind is where Paul is writing to Timothy and telling him the qualifications to be a deacon or overseer in 1 Timothy 3 - specifically in verse three he says, "not given to drunkenness" (NIV). While we typically consider drunkenness to be associated with alcohol, could this also mean intoxication with other substances?

Why should our leaders and servants both be called to be tested against this standard? Because we typically follow the customs of our leaders. We may not agree with individual individual decisions, but overall, we want good, strong, moral leaders. They essentially become the ideals of our society.

Besides, Ryan, I don't think that you've answered my question about solving terrorist problems in Afghanistan by producing and distributing heroin to minors here. It's the same argument as your Mexican cartel problem with marijuana. *grin*
 
Well, I was sort of waiting a bit since seeing Abba's post, but I suppose since he did say "till the weekend"...

Durruck said:
IThat's an unfair question. I know three pot-heads. They have never killed anyone while OVI on marijunan. But that's anecdotal evidence, which can be shaky.
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If you read the question verbatim, maybe it's slightly anecdotal...but think about it this way. First, more people smoke pot than you know, apparently. :) (I'm not one of them, lol)

But think of it this way...how many people smoke pot in your county? State? Country? And how many deaths have you heard about? Still anecdotal?

Durruck said:
I also personally know at least 100 people that have driven while intoxicated by alcohol - most of them that did it while under the legal drinking age, and none of them have killed anyone. So should drunk driving laws and age restrictions for purchasing alcohol be repealed?

I could not even begin to count the number of people I personally know that have texted while driving. None of them have caused a crash. Should texting/driving bans be repealed?

I know far more people that have fallen asleep at the wheel and caused crashes. Should driving after being awake 16 hours be banned?
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DUI (which we typically think of as just alcohol) includes marijuana. In other words, driving under the influence of marijuana is already prohibited under a seperate law, and would continue to be prohibited if marijuana was legalized unless we modified the DUI law somehow. I believe you can also get busted for driving while too sleepy, but don't quote me on that.

Durruck said:
Opium comes from poppies, which grow in abundance in Afghanistan. The heroin problem is terrible here, and the money supports the very terrorists that our military are currently fighting. Let's grow our own poppies, make our own heroin, and distribute it for kids that are currently buying it illegally, just so we can fight terrorists more efficiently. Besides, some European countries give out heroin as a pain reliever, so it must be okay!

Where do you draw the line at taking down drug cartels with domestic production and legalization? Where do you draw the line at safety while driving?
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Opium and heroine are far, far more addictive than marijuana. Marijuana happens to be less addictive than cigarettes and alcohol. Just ask David Nutt.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114335303

Simply put, it's about weighing the pros and cons. Heroine and Opium are both highly addictive, and lead to total devastation of one's life.

Marijuana, on the other hand, leads to increased use of heroine because it's being bought from drug dealers. Want to cut down on heroine use and fight terror? Legalize cannabis. :)

Durruck said:
Would there be deaths in Mexico if we stopped using marijuana? Legalization isn't the only solution to solving the problem of international murder.
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I'm sorry, my responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.

Would there be less deaths in Mexico if we took away half of the cartels funds? Well, yeah, of course there would be less.

Durruck said:
From a biblical perspective, the first verses that come to mind is where Paul is writing to Timothy and telling him the qualifications to be a deacon or overseer in 1 Timothy 3 - specifically in verse three he says, "not given to drunkenness" (NIV). While we typically consider drunkenness to be associated with alcohol, could this also mean intoxication with other substances?

Why should our leaders and servants both be called to be tested against this standard? Because we typically follow the customs of our leaders. We may not agree with individual individual decisions, but overall, we want good, strong, moral leaders. They essentially become the ideals of our society.
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I don't think there is a clear cut case to say marijuana is definitely against God's commandments, but that's what this forum is for. Citing drunkenness is a bit of a stretch, especially considering many people read that to mean "hey, I can drink in moderation". :) I don't drink, and feel it is unwise to make a habit of doing so.

I also agree that smoking is bad. Yes, legalizing would reduce the barrier, hence making smoking more tempting. They're already temped by the black market.

I suppose I could use your line of questioning and ask something like...
- Should fast food be outlawed? Video games? Not exercising?

No, what should be done is create a "sin" tax, and use that money towards something to help counter marijuana smoking (yes, you read right). Here in Oklahoma, we tax cigarettes to help subsidize healthcare for small businesses.

Durruck said:
Besides, Ryan, I don't think that you've answered my question about solving terrorist problems in Afghanistan by producing and distributing heroin to minors here. It's the same argument as your Mexican cartel problem with marijuana. *grin*
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See above. Get the people who want to smoke pot away into the store and out of the streets, and they'll be buying less heroine as well.

Or would you prefer to support the terrorists?!? :D

Your turn! :)
 
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