Judgment Day - May 21, 2011

But he does describe the signs of the end times. And false prophets such as these just proves 'it is near', but it has always been near. We just don't know when EXACTLY it will happen. It has always been 'near' since 2000 years ago.
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You're exactly right. The early church looked at the major earthquake and temple destruction in 72AD as proof that the end was near. The people in the middle ages looked at the Crusade as the "mass wars"... WWI, WWII...

Look at all the massive earthquakes in the last 1 year - Japan, Chile, Haiti... massive tsunamis across the globe, typhoons and hurricanes are getting more frequent and more powerful. In the United States, there have been more tornadoes (and more deaths from those tornadoes) this year than in the last 15 combined. There has been major turmoil in the Middle East.

And yet none of those are enough to reliably say that the end is HERE. Near, perhaps... but only in comparison to yesterday. Each day, we get closer to the end. Whether any of us will live to see the end or not .... only God knows.

My end might come on the road as I'm travelling later this afternoon. Or it might happen when Jesus comes again. Nobody except the Father knows.

Ultimately, we're not meant to worry about when the end will be. We're meant to live with reassurance that we are promised a spot in Heaven, and live our lives to glorify God and spread His word.

Paul wrote to the Philippians (Phil 1:18b-26, NIV), emphasis mine.

Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance. I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

Paul wasn't suicidal, and neither am I. But he did look forward to the day that he would be reunited with Christ and did not fear it. Yet he knew that God gave him a purpose on this earth, and meant to fulfill it before he died. Paul knew when he petitioned the Caesar that it could end in his execution, but did it anyway because it kept him alive long enough to preach the gospel to many, many more people and see hundreds, if not thousands, saved by Grace.

Paul wrote many of his letters while under arrest and waiting for trial. He was not scared. He did not worry about which day would be the last. He just kept living for God and let God sort out the details.
 
Well but is it true that the end is EVEN FARTHER now than it was 2000 years ago, now that we live in a much better world without so much of the genocide and humanitarian disasters even the 'good' king David and Solomon commited?
How can one put an entire city to the sword and still be considered 'good'? In fact how can any monarchy (UNdemocratic government) be considered good? It WAS good in the standards of the day but we've certainly surpassed that.

And the bible does say things must get worse before it gets better right?
And the abomination (I'd assume a dictator) that hunts down and kills Christians on a GLOBAL scale has yet to even rise to power. The only way I see that can happen is if the USSR re-forms, China makes a bid for world domination, or lil kim actually manages to pull off Homefront. Still I'm not sure if Caesar was any worse than Stalin.
 
How can one put an entire city to the sword and still be considered 'good'?
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Easy. Overall, if you look at David's life, he was keeping his focus on God. Yes, he made a LOT of mistakes along the way... but he always repented and turned back to God. By comparison, his predecessor (Saul) stopped looking to God and started relying on his own knowledge and intuition... he started relying on the Ark of the Covenant like an idol.

The point is that David (like us) can be considered good despite our sins because we keep our main focus on God.
 
That Was Ockward!

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32
 
Same thing as before... there's a new code, a different date, or some data he overlooked in the past.

And when he makes a 4th prediction, that one will be wrong too.
 
No - he says it DID happen - just a spiritual judgment. The end will still come on October 21, 2011. There is no need to evangelize anymore - the judgment day has come. That's what he is saying. He says, not the Bible.
 
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The problem is that it's hard to tell between him being a false prophet, and what happened to Jonah. God has been known to show mercy and not fulfill the disaster foretold. While this is likely NOT the case due to his incredulous claims which contradict the bible, he could just spin around and say he was right all along but God decided to 'postpone' it. And then we must go burn down his house.
 
What happened in Jonah 3 is completely different than what we deal with today. Nineveh didn't have Jesus. Their salvation (or lack of destruction) would be directly related to their repentance to pronouncements of judgement. Old Testament pronouncements often included "if you don't.... then God will destroy you."

We don't know exactly what Jonah preached against Nineveh. It is very possible that Jonah included a "repent or else" in his message. However, we do know how the Ninevites responded to Jonah's 3 days of preaching - reverence and submission to God. In fact, Jonah even specifically states in chapter 4 that he understood what God would do if Nineveh repented... which is why he tried to run away back in chapter 1.
 
Yeah, but now how can we trust a word that comes out of Jonah's mouth, by standards that 'once a prophet's heresies didn't come true he is an idiot'? Clearly that reasoning is flawed. We need a better way to see who's a false prophet and who's not. Because they are cunning, like this guy. He has been running his radio show thing for decades. Most of the stuff he says is non controversial, and stuff you and me and the wider Christian community can agree with. Therefore his followers wouldn't be surprised if one day he said something odd, because he has been speaking truth for so long, they just take his words into their hearts.
 
There's a difference between what Jonah (and most Old Testament prophets) preached and this situation. Look at it like this...

I tell you that if you try to take a pan out of the oven at 400 degrees F (no idea what a celsius conversion would be... but let's just say 150 degrees C) without using something to protect your hand, you'll be burned. So you use a oven mitt and don't get burned. Was my "prophecy" wrong?

Of course not. I said "use something or else" and you used something, so the "or else" never happened.

So in Leviticus 26:25 it says,
And I will bring the sword on you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.​
​

If you break the covenant, God will punish. Guess what happens if Israel remains faithful? No plague!

From Jonah 1:
1 The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”​
​

Jonah might have used similar phrasing to Leviticus. We don't really know. But what we do know is how the people - specifically the king - reacted (chapter 3)

7 This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” ​

There is a huge difference between what happened in the OT and what happened with Rev Harold whats-his-face. You still don't need to wait for his dates to pass to figure out he's wrong.
 
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Guess what happens if Israel remains faithful? No plague!
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Josiah was faithful. He died in battle. Though Judah repented, destruction still came. Even though wasn't everyone supposed to die for their own sins and not their fathers'? Well this chapter confuses me. Here's Josiah who was righteous and he got killed, and the city in Jonah escaped without any repercussions. I'm sorry but in this scenario I find it hard to see God as the good guy.
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”
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So did Josiah.
And as there were many people in nineveh, I doubt the feelings are unanimous.

You still don't need to wait for his dates to pass to figure out he's wrong.
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but if I was a follower, how would you recommend I break out of it? How do I differentiate the lies from the truth? He's mixing a little lie with a lot of truth. Common marketing trick actually. Provide a lot of facts and then attempt to pass your own stuff as fact together with the rest.
 
If you read his stuff you would see that it was not "a little lie with a lot of truth." All you have to do to differentiate the lies from the truth is a) read the Bible, not listen to his rambling, between-the-line explanations, and b) read 2,000 years of biblical interpretation, not listen to his "new revelations."
 
silverleaf said:
Josiah was faithful. He died in battle. Though Judah repented, destruction still came. Even though wasn't everyone supposed to die for their own sins and not their fathers'? Well this chapter confuses me. Here's Josiah who was righteous and he got killed, and the city in Jonah escaped without any repercussions. I'm sorry but in this scenario I find it hard to see God as the good guy.
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Not in that time. Old Testament still had a lot of family cursing going on. While technically, we are judged on our own merits today, we still have Adam's curse running through our blood. We tend to make a lot of decisions based on how our parents raised us - we become the fathers to our children that our fathers were to us. Kids in broken homes have a higher liklihood of repeating the cycle. Kids of alcoholics are far more likely to become alcoholics themselves. Kids that were abused are more likely to abuse their own children. My co-worker is an atheist, and so are his children. I see people at work that are 4th generation welfare abusers.

Are we not still impacted by the sins of our fathers?

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”
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So did Josiah.
And as there were many people in nineveh, I doubt the feelings are unanimous.
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Probably not. But in that time, the king was a dictator. Assyria was a wicked country. If you disobeyed the king, you could be executed. He said repent... you better at least look like you're repenting.

but if I was a follower, how would you recommend I break out of it? How do I differentiate the lies from the truth? He's mixing a little lie with a lot of truth. Common marketing trick actually. Provide a lot of facts and then attempt to pass your own stuff as fact together with the rest.
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Like Abba San said, read your Bible. If Jesus says it in plain language, "You cannot know," then you cannot know. God is not a liar... He wouldn't say "that you can't know* (*unless you know the secret password, multiplied by the double sum of the Holy numbers** (**which needs to be doubled), then add it to the date that Jesus died*** (***which hadn't happened at the time of the statement, plus the date was not accurately recorded, so go ahead and guess!), then set a second date that is an additional 181 days away)."

You're right, it's a common trick. But one that should not have fooled a single Bible-reading person in the entire world.

Then he used the oldest lie in the book... Go back and read Genesis 3. The serpent fooled Eve with simple questions like "Are you sure?" "Did God really say that?"

And this guy used the same line to get people to ignore what Jesus said about the date of the Second Coming.
 
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well said. The problem is not everyone is a bible expert. We, with the exception of those of you who are elders and deacons, rely on our pastors to lead us. The problem is when the *leaders* are wrong.
Right now, some people still believe him. And the 'are you sure' question works really well, because the most of us aren't experts, we're followers. How long more will they continue following this madman? It's pretty impossible to "read the bible" and break out of it once you're in so deep... Feel bad for these people actually. They are devout, but serving the wrong master. There has still been no talk about returning the money he collected, not even an apology (he only apologized that he was a little off). Instead he's bashing them with "I didn't tell you to". Hey genius, if the world is gona end, how about you stop accepting donations? Instead of taking them and then when nothing happens, "I didn't tell you to but I didn't stop you either". A fool and his money are soon parted, but these people are kinda brainwashed, not exactly fools.
 
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The problem is not everyone is a bible expert.
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That's kinda the point. You don't have to be a Bible scholar with years of deep study to find where Jesus is talking about the Second Coming and clearly says that no man can know the hour it will happen.

It doesn't even matter which version of the Bible you study, they all say it.... except Camping's version.

I understand there are a lot of differences between different denominations, Bible translations, etc. And quite honestly, I'm okay with that. Each of them can explain why they believe what they believe, based on information directly stated in the Scriptures.

I just can't get past the idea that people were fooled when this guy said that Jesus was wrong, and that there was a secret code. No matter how much I like my pastor, I'm not afraid to question him, to consider his teachings against the Bible, to ask him what verses and translations he studies from.
 
I don't think he directly said 'jesus was wrong'. But yeah alarm bells should go off the moment something CONTRADICTORY to the bible is said.
 
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