John 6:44

I always trust that you will bring it to light!!! That is why we are to look to God and not to man. There is not one of us that can mirror the life of Jesus perfectly.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

That is why God allowed for our Salvation from before the foundation of the world:

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, I Peter 1: 19&20

I do not mean to offer an excuse, it is the truth. I have known a few that have stood the test of time and stood by the stuff in our generation. Sadly, there are always those that want to throw stones and lie upon even the very best of Christians.
 
If God chooses the elect to go to heaven, aren't the "un-elect" choosen to go to hell by default? Wouldn't God be choosing evil for those who aren't elect? They'd be condemned for something they had no control over. Why even allow the "un-elect" to be created?

"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2 NASB)
 
IceBladePOD said:
If God chooses the elect to go to heaven, aren't the "un-elect" choosen to go to hell by default? Wouldn't God be choosing evil for those who aren't elect? They'd be condemned for something they had no control over. Why even allow the "un-elect" to be created?

"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2 NASB)
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Then explain these verses:

1 Peter 2:8and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."

Romans 922 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
 
Marcylene said:
I always trust that you will bring it to light!!! That is why we are to look to God and not to man.
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Then how do you explain how different Christians can come to different conclusions after reading the same verses?
 
First and foremost, preconceived notions and ideas. Lack of study and the ability to compare Scripture with Scripture. You see the same with the people you read. In addition, I do believe some of the versions are off, they are man's interpretation. I am amazed that if those who write the "more understandable" versions feel they must change every single verse! It is an insult of intelligence!
 
Aren't they ALL man's interpretations, even the KJV?

Let me rephrase my last question...how do you explain how different Christians can come to different conclusions after reading the same verses AND both being guided by God and the Holy Spirit? If man is fallible and open to misinterpretation, shouldn't God point them both in the same direction?
 
Dark Virtue said:
Aren't they ALL man's interpretations, even the KJV?

Let me rephrase my last question...how do you explain how different Christians can come to different conclusions after reading the same verses AND both being guided by God and the Holy Spirit? If man is fallible and open to misinterpretation, shouldn't God point them both in the same direction?
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I do believe that God calls His elect and that the call is irresistable. I do not however believe that God micro manages every aspect of our lives. He does guide us and help us along, but we do have responsibilities of our own. One of those is the study of scripture.

God wants us, no He commands us, to study His word. God guides us but we must have the initiative to be diligent and prayerful in our study. God does not always give easy answers. Through study of His word we grow in many ways. We grow in faith, perseverence, knowledge, etc...God guides us but at His own pace.

As we study and pray we grow. It is sometimes a long drawn out process. At this point you can say...why doesn't He just snap His fingers and make you know everything? I do not know the answer to that question.

God's plan is God's plan and His plan is the best plan hands down.
 
Marcylene said:
Yes, I believe He woos us as the Calvinistic movement says, but being no respecter of persons and dying for the world, I still say, with all due respect to Charles Spurgeon who I cannot hold a candle to Spriritually, whosoever will may come!!!
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I agree that 'whosoever will may come'. My question remains, can anyone come to God without His help?

God kick starts the 'will to come'.
 
Didasko said:
I agree that 'whosoever will may come'. My question remains, can anyone come to God without His help?
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Didasko said:

God kick starts the 'will to come'.
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I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5

No, I don’t think that we can do anything without Him. I have become even more aware I think, at times when I am so distraught I find it hard to pray, or read my Bible, or think! I find it sad at those times, that He has to assist me with even those things, but I realize that is one of the Holy Spirits function in our lives. Once we have come to know the Saviour, I cannot even imagine who would want anything, or to do anything, apart from Him.



Therefore, yes, I strongly, firmly believe that He woos us until we accept Him. That must be difficult on the God of the Universe when He already is aware of who will accept Him. Nevertheless, I think more especially knowing that He is just and right, we all have equal opportunity to come to Him. Chosen? Yes, because that is what He calls us once we are accepted. I really don’t believe it has anything to do with only a certain few are able to come and that is how I view predestination.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Aren't they ALL man's interpretations, even the KJV?
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You just recently started a thread on this one, not to mention the very lengthy one from last year. Argumentative little bugger;whatever are we to do with you? :rolleyes:
Dark Virtue said:
Let me rephrase my last question...how do you explain how different Christians can come to different conclusions after reading the same verses AND both being guided by God and the Holy Spirit? If man is fallible and open to misinterpretation, shouldn't God point them both in the same direction?
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There are many applications of certain verses, but only one interpretation. Some only do what Bro. So and So preaches and that is where they gain their beliefs. It is frightening how few read the Scriptures and gain beliefs and convictions on their own.
Let's take an example:

1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: F400 praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: F401 praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. Psalm 144 from www.crosswalk.com

You tell me why there are demoniations that believe that you should not use instruments in church? (I am not certain how far they carry it from there!) In addition, there are some that do not believe in music period! That is really odd to me, too, for the Psalms are poetry and songs! Again, you tell me! I really don't know. Some things seem obvious, others to be fair, perhaps not so much so. People want to do things their way and are stubborn in that reasoning!
 
Agreed, it is one of the top three.

In response to post #44:

Then explain these verses:
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I'll take it!!!! Me!!!! Ohh!!!! Ohh!! Me!!!!

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. I Peter 2:8

It is saying they were given a promise for their disobedience. The word appointed there means a promise. I Corinthians 1:23 and following explains, chosen to preach, the foolish to confound the wise, and those that are disobedience have there appointed place. Not God's choosing, ours!

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. Romans 9:23

Matthew Henry at http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=ro&chapter=9#Ro9_22 can have this one!

v. 22 endash 24. Two sorts of vessels God forms out of the great lump of fallen mankind:—[1.] Vessels of wrath —vessels filled with wrath, as a vessel of wine is a vessel filled with wine; full of the fury of the Lord, Isa. 51:20. In these God is willing to show his wrath, that is, his punishing justice, and his enmity to sin. This must be shown to all the world, God will make it appear that he hates sin. He will likewise make his power known, to dynaton autou. It is a power of strength and energy, an inflicting power, which works and effects the destruction of those that perish; it is a destruction that proceeds from the glory of his power, 2 Th. 1:9. The eternal damnation of sinners will be an abundant demonstration of the power of God; for he will act in it himself immediately, his wrath preying as it were upon guilty consciences, and his arm stretched out totally to destroy their well-being, and yet at the same instant wonderfully to preserve the being of the creature. In order to this, God endured them with much long-suffering —exercised a great deal of patience towards them, let them alone to fill up the measure of sin, to grow till they were ripe for ruin, and so they became fitted for destruction, fitted by their own sin and self-hardening. The reigning corruptions and wickedness of the soul are its preparedness and disposedness for hell: a soul is hereby made combustible matter, fit for the flames of hell. When Christ said to the Jews (Mt. 23:32), Fill you up then the measure of your father, that upon you may come all the righteous blood (v. 35), he did, as it were, endure them with much long-suffering, that they might, by their own obstinacy and wilfulness in sin, fit themselves for destruction. [2.] Vessels of mercy —filled with mercy. The happiness bestowed upon the saved remnant is the fruit, not of their merit, but of God’s mercy. The spring of all the joy and glory of heaven is that mercy of God which endures for ever. Vessels of honour must to eternity own themselves vessels of mercy. Observe, First, What he designs in them: To make known the riches of his glory, that is, of his goodness; for God’s goodness is his greatest glory, especially when it is communicated with the greatest sovereignty. I beseech thee show me thy glory, says Moses, Ex. 33:18. I will make all my goodness to pass before thee, says God (v. 19), and that given out freely: I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious. God makes known his glory, this goodness of his, in the preservation and supply of all the creatures: the earth is full of his goodness, and the year crowned with it; but when he would demonstrate the riches of his goodness, unsearchable riches, he does it in the salvation of the saints, that will be to eternity glorious monuments of divine grace. Secondly, What he does for them he does before prepare them to glory. Sanctification is the preparation of the soul for glory, making it meet to partake of the inheritance of the saints in light. This is God’s work. We can destroy ourselves fast enough, but we cannot save ourselves. Sinners fit themselves for hell, but it is God that prepares saints for heaven; and all those that God designs for heaven hereafter he prepares and fits for heaven now: he works them to the self-same thing, 2 Co. 5:5. And would you know who these vessels of mercy are? Those whom he hath called (v. 24); for whom he did predestinate those he also called with an effectual call: and these not of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles; for, the partition-wall being taken down, the world was laid in common, and not (as it had been) God’s favour appropriated to the Jews, and they put a degree nearer his acceptance than the rest of the world. They now stood upon the same level with the Gentiles; and the question is not now whether of the seed of Abraham or no, that is neither here nor there, but whether or no called according to his purpose.
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Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I'll leaven that one in your version, it explains it in commentary form. The men were written about! You are grasping at straws with that one, DV!

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. It is plainly, their choice!!! There is a place ordained, made, prepared....for the devil and his angels, it was never meant for us!
 
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DV, do you see a difference in Christians? I have been a Christian for a while, so I am partial, perhaps. But before Christianity, I think many times I could pick them out, and that, for the most part was because of their love and inner joy in spite of the circumstances. I feel I still see that today. Yes, there are wonderful moral people, some act more decent than Christians. I was just wondering from a nonbeliever. Bill Gothard says that you can tell a Christian by looking into their eyes. I have heard other people mention the lack of a certain gleam, almost a deadness in people who are not Christians.
I am not only wondering what your thoughts are on that, but I can remember seeing what I saw in Christians and knowing He made a difference in their lives; do you see that? I believe it was one of the ways in which He wooed me.
 
Not on your life!!!;)
Bite your tongue, DV!
I will tell you when I am! ;)
Let's just say, with the Word behind me, I can't lose, now when I stray...that's another story:rolleyes:
 
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