John 6:44

[Marcylene]

Normally I would take that route Marcy, but you have Christians, RIGHT HERE ON THIS BOARD, that disagree with you that support their views of predestination that same way you do, WITH THE BIBLE.

So what is a nonChristian supposed to think when Christians themselves can't agree? Is this when the fingerpointing starts and you accuse Didasko of not being a "true" Christian and that he is simply incorrect in his understanding of the Bible?

That is a tough one, for you see, I admire Didasko and his study on God's Word. I always enjoy reading his post. To be honest, there are many here that I can say the same about, and there are a handful that I part company with in certain areas. I must admit, that is always disappointing for me. I have a friend that reminds me that every step takes us closer to God as we seek Him.
I know it must be hard for the non Christian, just as much so for the Christian who deeply desires to make the right choices. We can only study God's Word. It really has all the answers and I feel He will give us those answers.
Here is the reason that I believe the way in which I do, my heart and my conscience abide by my beliefs. I, like anyone here, I don't think has the desire to lead anyone astray. As we study God's Word in its entirety, allowing it to correspond with itself...perhaps that is where being logical would fit!

Salvation = Jesus death on the Cross + nothing. If we add baptism, some chosen, good works, anything else for Salvation, we are saying Christ is not The Way, The Truth, and The Life in whom we come to Salvation. Believing there are chosen ones is adding to and accusing Him of being a respecter of persons, which He proclaims He is not.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter or person:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34&35

NO! Not a respecter in any way! He goes to the uttermost of us and the guttermost of us!

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

My God is a whosoever will God. He came to save the world! I would have never accepted salvation if I had to put anything with it, for my faith was not that strong; I would have known I could never be accepted as a chosen one! To accept Christ I had to know that I was a wicked sinner and come to the foot of the Cross. I cannot come feeling "chosen." That smacks of my goodness to gain Salvation. No, Jesus paid it ALL!

 

[Dark Virtue]

You fail to address the point though.

The Bible either supports predestination or it does not. It can't support it for one Christian and not another, can it?

Either predestination is supported or it is not. Which is it?

 

[Marcylene]

The Bible either supports predestination or it does not. It can't support it for one Christian and not another, can it?

No, I do understand the point. I was simply putting in my .00005 cents worth on why I believe strongly what I believe. No, there is simply no private interpretation of the Bible. It is only one way. We aren't all right. Some things won't matter for our eternal soul, but some will. I do fear predestination may be one of those, for it adds to Christ's death on the Cross and the shedding of His Precious Blood for the Remission of our sins. It adds that you must be chosen!

Either predestination is supported or it is not. Which is it?

*sigh* Yea, we Christian's are a mess, indeed! Sadly, predestination, tongues, baptism, holidays, Holy Days, church membership...and the saddest of all to me, some religions don't believe that Jesus has been to earth already, or if they do believe, they do not accept that He is the only way to Salvation. Please understand, I do my best and choose a church based on what I understand from God's Word, yet, don't we all? I think that is the biggest, major problem of today. If people would truly study God's Word as the Bible itself advises us to do, there would not be such division amongst us. I always admire preachers who will encourage their congregates not to try to Spiritually live on the handful of verses he is able to present to them each week. While there are some churches that discourage reading the Word of God!!! Yea, it is a mess all right. Just please note, DV, it is not God, nor His Word that is the cause of the confusion, it is us.
Some things seem so obvious to me. Let's take the church that does not believe in music. I am not certain where that belief came from, but look at the Word. The Psalms is a book of poetry and music that also encourages us to praise Him on all types of instruments. He is coming with a trumpet sound, Heaven has a choir...Scripture by Scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept...the truth is ALL in the Book!

 

[Dark Virtue]

No, I do understand the point. I was simply putting in my .00005 cents worth on why I believe strongly what I believe. No, there is simply no private interpretation of the Bible. It is only one way. We aren't all right. Some things won't matter for our eternal soul, but some will. I do fear predestination may be one of those, for it adds to Christ's death on the Cross and the shedding of His Precious Blood for the Remission of our sins. It adds that you must be chosen!

Believe me, I understand why you believe what you believe, I am merely pointing out that those same reasons you use to support your beliefs can be used to support other, differing beliefs. They can't all, however, be right, as you said yourself. Isn't it possible then Marcy, that YOUR outlook is incorrect when it comes to Predestination?

*sigh* Yea, we Christian's are a mess, indeed! Sadly, predestination, tongues, baptism, holidays, Holy Days, church membership...and the saddest of all to me, some religions don't believe that Jesus has been to earth already, or if they do believe, they do not accept that He is the only way to Salvation. Please understand, I do my best and choose a church based on what I understand from God's Word, yet, don't we all? I think that is the biggest, major problem of today. If people would truly study God's Word as the Bible itself advises us to do, there would not be such division amongst us. I always admire preachers who will encourage their congregates not to try to Spiritually live on the handful of verses he is able to present to them each week. While there are some churches that discourage reading the Word of God!!! Yea, it is a mess all right. Just please note, DV, it is not God, nor His Word that is the cause of the confusion, it is us.

You are quick to divert responsibility from God. Why didn't God just make it easier to understand for us lowly humans?

1 Cor14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

When then, do we see SO much confusion in his church?

Some things seem so obvious to me. Let's take the church that does not believe in music. I am not certain where that belief came from, but look at the Word. The Psalms is a book of poetry and music that also encourages us to praise Him on all types of instruments. He is coming with a trumpet sound, Heaven has a choir...Scripture by Scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept...the truth is ALL in the Book!

This goes right back to my first point. While YOU use verses to show one thing, others use different verses to support the opposite of what you claim.

 

[Marcylene]

Believe me, I understand why you believe what you believe, I am merely pointing out that those same reasons you use to support your beliefs can be used to support other, differing beliefs. They can't all, however, be right, as you said yourself. Isn't it possible then Marcy, that YOUR outlook is incorrect when it comes to Predestination?

As I search the Scriptures and consider all the verses that Jesus had open arms there on the Cross and even today, I can say a heartfelt, "No!" I feel that it is clear that God meant Salvation for all who want to come. The Bible says He laid upon Himself the iniquities of us all. Every single person ever born has his sin debt paid in full. Already paid, a free gift. Done deal. It is up to us to accept that gift or reject it.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

You are quick to divert responsibility from God. Why didn't God just make it easier to understand for us lowly humans?

For Salvation, He did make it easy enough for anyone to come.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

From that first step, some of the burden of proof, or lack of understanding is on me.

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Ephesians 4:18

From Salvation we are babes desiring the milk of the Word. We tend to want others to feed us rather than to search the Bible for ourselves. Then too, our stubborn rebellion and unbelief blinds our hearts.

God asks that we study to shew ourselves approved unto God, that study being of His Word. I think that our desire to know and grow in Him is directly related to that study and the growth of the mustard seed of faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Lastly, I think God, in His magnificence will take an eternity to know. Since we who are saved will be with Him in eternity, we cannot begin to get bored! Those are my thoughts! The Bible is clear, however, if we earnestly seek The Truth!

When then, do we see SO much confusion in his church?

We tend to walk in the flesh and not the Spirit. Remember too, we are only sinners saved by grace. The church is a Spiritual hospital.

This goes right back to my first point. While YOU use verses to show one thing, others use different verses to support the opposite of what you claim.

This started with Didasko, so let me say, I find him well studied in Scripture and an intelligent, Spiritual man. That being said, I will go out on a limb here...for the most part, DV, those who will argue with differing views, really do not know their Bible. Then to add to that shame, I firmly believe we have preachers and teachers in the same boat. Furthermore, we have that same group wanting to dance around calling sin, sin, so as not to offend anyone.

Truly, don't you see? If you have studied various churches, it is not the Word that they are focusing on, but what it is that will bring the people in and keep their flesh satisfied.

Look at religions throughout history. I would say around the late 1800's is where you begin to see such distinction of various religions. Did they want to stand closer to God's Word on what they believed? Unfortunately, many church splits came from members simply wanting to do things their own way.

 

[Didasko]

My God is a whosoever will God. He came to save the world! I would have never accepted salvation if I had to put anything with it, for my faith was not that strong; I would have known I could never be accepted as a chosen one! To accept Christ I had to know that I was a wicked sinner and come to the foot of the Cross. I cannot come feeling "chosen." That smacks of my goodness to gain Salvation. No, Jesus paid it ALL!

Marcylene this is an area that many Christians disagree on. I can list many famous church leaders past and present who hold my beliefs on this issue. John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, St. Augustine, and C.S. Lewis just to name a few. You can give me a list of church leaders that believe in free will. I do not respect you any less for your reasoning on this one. I spent about 35 years of my life with the same view you have.

As to the statement that it smacks of a persons goodness...that is far from what I beleive. As I stated in a previous post on this thread, it is our depravity that makes us need God's guidance to Him. My point was that we are so far gone that we cannot chose God without His help.

God does not chose us based on any good thing we have done. One of God's chosen is no better as a human than any other. From my perspective the view that we have free will to chose God without His intervention is works based.

That view smacks of having goodness being needed to gain salvation. A person must be good enough, smart enough, strong enough, etc... to choose God on their own. Only if you are _____ (fill in the blank) enough to choose to reach out to God can you be saved. Where as, from my point of view it is ALL God.

We cannot let nonbelievers use the few differences we have to build walls between us. Satan uses things like this to cause division in the Church. When it comes down to the primary doctrines of our faith, does a belief in or against predestination really effect whether we are brothers and sisters in Christ? No!

but that teaching is straight from hell

ouch!

I questioned whether to let my views be known on this board because of the fact that we have people here who's only real goal is to point out our differences. But I decided not to let anyone keep me from voicing my belief. What we need to do as Christians is show unity in Christ. Even with our different views on some topics, we still hold fast to the knowledge that the only way to salvation is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rather than let this show our differences, lets use it to show our Unity in Christ.

 

[Dark Virtue]

We cannot let nonbelievers use the few differences we have to build walls between us.

Hey, don't blame us nonbelievers, Christianity has been building walls between its sects just fine without any outside help.

 

[Dark Virtue]

This started with Didasko, so let me say, I find him well studied in Scripture and an intelligent, Spiritual man. That being said, I will go out on a limb here...for the most part, DV, those who will argue with differing views, really do not know their Bible. Then to add to that shame, I firmly believe we have preachers and teachers in the same boat. Furthermore, we have that same group wanting to dance around calling sin, sin, so as not to offend anyone.

I don't believe this is so. The problem comes with the Bible itself, which is extremely vague or dare I say contradictory. This allows for multiple, conflicting interpretations. Because of this, several different people can study their hearts out and come to multiple, conflicting conclusions.

I'm sure I could point out numerous biblical scholars that are well trained and well educated to support predestination. I think Didasko's list would be more than adequate to start with. Are you saying that THEY were wrong in their conclusion? You said yourself that Didasko is well studied and intelligent, yet you still claim he is wrong about predestination. Once again I'll ask, isn't it possible that YOU are the one that's wrong?

 

[Didasko]

Hey, don't blame us nonbelievers, Christianity has been building walls between its sects just fine without any outside help.

Your right DV. It goes to show that we are human just like you The only real difference is that we are forgiven.

However, it is not the Word of God that has the problem. It is our human nature and fallen state that causes the problem.

 

[Didasko]

I don't believe this is so. The problem comes with the Bible itself, which is extremely vague or dare I say contradictory. This allows for multiple, conflicting interpretations. Because of this, several different people can study their hearts out and come to multiple, conflicting conclusions.

This proves one of my points Marcylene. Rather than try to understand that we Christians are not perfect and that we make mistakes just like everyone else. The nonbelievers would rather try to find fault with God and God's word.


DV the Bible is not contradictory at all. It is we Christians that sometimes are. When I go to be with Christ and am no longer in this fallen state, I'll know all the answers and see the mistakes I have made.

On the essential doctrines of Christianity we must hold true. Predestination or not isn't an essential droctrine.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Eh? I would think predestination is a HUGE issue, because even if you think yourself a Christian, if you aren't one of the "chosen" then it really doesn't matter, does it? Or am I missing something?

In both your last posts you blame man for not understanding or making the bible harder than you believe it is. If you're going to lay blame, it needs to rest solely on God's shoulders. Isn't it HIS job to make sure we understand his commands? It's not exactly fair to create a set of instructions that are unable to be understood. You blamed our "fallen" status, but if God set his laws in motion FOR US, shouldn't he have taken that into consideration?

 

[Genesis1315]

Eh? I would think predestination is a HUGE issue, because even if you think yourself a Christian, if you aren't one of the "chosen" then it really doesn't matter, does it? Or am I missing something?

I think you are making it harder than it is. There is a book by Paul Little that explains predestination fairly well. I am still looking for my notes on it

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Why do you say that?

If predestination exists, it has HUGE ramifications.

 

[Genesis1315]

It does, I just don't think it does in the way it has been addressed here

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Please explain. In what way does it have huge ramifications other than what we have pointed out?

 

[Marcylene]

Once again I'll ask, isn't it possible that YOU are the one that's wrong?

I already told you...absolutely, positively NOT!!! I have studied this issue, heard the debates, I stand where I stand and I ain't movin'

Didasko, I looooovvvvveeee Spurgeon and avidly read his sermons but I did not know he believed in predestination, I would need to see it to believe it.
There are no hard feelings and I in no way want to create any. Our foundation is Jesus Christ the only way to Salvation, any thing else is splitting hairs. It matters not for love of the brotherhood or salvation how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!! DV often says he is in the minority here, believe me, I live it. I go to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. Outside of my church it is next to impossible to find anyone that believes in the standards that we try to live by, and our church happens to believe that they are Biblical. Women in dresses, men with short hair, ect. I do not let this part me from other brothers and sisters in Christ, nor do I think I am any better or following the LORD any more diligently. Those are simply firm beliefs with me and I did not simply follow my church to arrive at them, nor did I gain those convictions overnight. In a nutshell, I can live my life by the letter of the law, but if I have not love, I might as well hang it up, it means nothing!
I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, here and otherwise. I learn much from them, and I do not allow our differences to stand in the way of that, for it would be my loss...well, except for BH and a handful of other hollywood "so called" preachers!

 

[Didasko]

Didasko, I looooovvvvveeee Spurgeon and avidly read his sermons but I did not know he believed in predestination, I would need to see it to believe it.

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

There you go. It is titled, A Defense of Calvinism An awesome sermon by C. H. Spurgeon. I am glad you wanted to see it. It's been a while since I read it and I took the time to read it again

 

[Didasko]

Eh? I would think predestination is a HUGE issue, because even if you think yourself a Christian, if you aren't one of the "chosen" then it really doesn't matter, does it? Or am I missing something?

Your definitely missing something DV (maybe just missing it for the sake of argument). If you are one of the elect there is absolutely no question of your salvation. Only one of God's elect will turn to Him.

There are many that on the surface appear to be Christians but are not. They have not given their hearts and souls to God. Deep down they know who they are. God does not play games.

If you give yourself heart and soul to God then you are one of the elect.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Your definitely missing something DV (maybe just missing it for the sake of argument). If you are one of the elect there is absolutely no question of your salvation. Only one of God's elect will turn to Him.

There are many that on the surface appear to be Christians but are not. They have not given their hearts and souls to God. Deep down they know who they are. God does not play games.

If you give yourself heart and soul to God then you are one of the elect.

Aren't you ignoring John 6:44 though?

From xenos.com

Doctrinal Overview

Calvinism:

This term is actually a misnomer. Calvin did not emphasize predestination in his Institutes (only 4 chapters). Calvin warned against delving too deeply into this subject (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, section 1). However, it became the controlling principle in Reformed Theology, expressed by the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619.

Starting point for Calvinist/Reformed theology: God is sovereign and decrees certain things.

(Isa. 46:10,11) …My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. (11)… What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

* Total Depravity:

As a result of Adam's sin, people are born in a "depraved" state. This means that although people may do things that are good, they are constitutionally unable to submit themselves to the gospel.

(Rom. 3:11,12) . . . there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless . . .

(John 6:44, 65) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.....(65)And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

* Unconditional Election:

Because of total depravity, salvation is completely dependent on God's choice to bestow it. For his own good reasons, God sovereignly chooses which individuals he will save. "Unconditional" in this context means that there are no conditions that humans must meet, including faith. Faith is a gift of God (ROM 12:3; Eph. 2:8). If human-generated faith plays a part in salvation, salvation is not entirely by grace.

(Eph. 1:4,5) He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. (5) In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . .

(1 Pet. 2:8) . . . they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

(ROM 9:16,18,22-24) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy . . . (18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires . . . (22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (23) And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

"Double predestination" (also called reprobation) means that God predestines the elect to heaven, and that he predestines the non-elect to hell (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 2:8; Jude 4; ROM 9:22,23).

(John Calvin) "…(God) does not create everyone in the same condition, but ordains eternal life for some and eternal damnation for others." (Cited in Alister McGrath, Christian Theology, p. 396)

Not all Calvinists believe in double predestination. Instead, they follow Augustine's teaching that God is active only in the salvation of the elect, while he is passive with regard to the non-elect.

* Limited Atonement:

Christ died for the purpose of saving only the elect. Calvinists infer this from the passages that say that Christ died "for his people" (Matt 1:21; John 10:11,15,26-27; John 15:13; Acts 20:28). Since God sovereignly elected some to salvation, he sent Christ to die only for them. Not all Calvinists hold to limited atonement.

* Irresistible Grace:

God's grace in salvation includes imparting saving faith to the elect. This grace is irresistible since it does not depend on human will (ROM 9:16; Jn. 6:37,44,65; 15:16). God causes the elect to believe the gospel (Acts 13:48), even though they may not be aware of this fact.

(Jn. 6:37) All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

(Acts 13:48) When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

* Perseverance of the Saints:

Because election depends on God, those who are elected cannot lose their salvation (i.e., eternal security). However, the elect will show evidence of their election by continuing to believe in Christ and manifesting good works consistent with salvation (2 Pet. 1:10; Heb. 3:6,14; Col. 1:23). This is the origin of "Lordship Theology" discussed last week.

(2 Pet. 1:10) Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.

(Heb. 3:6,14) Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end . . . For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

 

[Marcylene]

I am shocked! Are you certain that he did not recant at some point in his ministry? I have read his sermons for some time and this is not the general teaching that comes forth from his sermons. My Preachers love him, too, and I promise if predestination was his main teaching, this would not be the case! No one is perfect. I am disappointed, but not any more so than I was to learn that he was a smoker. I am not without sin and won't throw stones at him for any reason. I noticed that he also mentioned John Wesley, so he, too, had tolerance for those who believed in God's grace to all...whosoever will may come. Yes, I believe He woos us as the Calvinistic movement says, but being no respecter of persons and dying for the world, I still say, with all due respect to Charles Spurgeon who I cannot hold a candle to Spriritually, whosoever will may come!!!