Is Suicide The Ultimate Sin?

[RoloX2]

it will encourage a spirit of discord among our community,

Luke 12:

49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.​

Why is the Word always called a 'Sword'?




Romans 16:

17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.​

Did the discord begin with me or with the argument that exalted itself against the knowledge of G-d?




1 Corinthians 1:

10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ." ​

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.​

Verse 17 is highly relevant, for that is what I attacked.

Do not say "He is risen!", yet proclaim that His resurrection can be nullified by a Christian's sin.



1 Corinthians 3:

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a]; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b] 21So then, no more boasting about men!​

Matthew 5:

18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

You correctly used Scripture to instruct and rebuke, but as far as I can tell, you did so in a way devoid of love.

Can you elaborate?

/me sweeps hand over head. (I don't see it.)





Matthew 22:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."​

Romans 5:

7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.​

Who loves the suicidal, who need it most?

If an unsaved person contemplating suicide decided to seek G-d, stumbled in here (or anywhere), and saw the Christian's condemning attitudes demonstrated in this thread, do you think they would post?

Or, more likely--what I already explained--the Christian--a supposed representative of Christ--validated the suicidal person's notions that they are not worthy of life, or anything, the selfish ingrates...Which comes across as G-d Himself stating that they are evil and should be put to death. The Christian convinced the victim that suicide is the right thing to do.

How may of you would kill yourselves to make things a little easier for those around you? That is the last, selfless act of many suicide victims...which makes them more Christ-like than those who would condemn them to the Lake of Fire for being selfish.


TO COMPLY WITH THE FIRST THREE SCRIPTURES, I demand the two (and anyone else) who claim suicide victims are unsaved to post scriptures to support your dogma. If you cannot support your claim yet continue to speak it, you are a willful liar, a tool of the Deceiver. "I never knew you." comes to mind.

We are commanded to arrive at the Truth, in unity. Until we do that, WildBill, there will be division. Discord was already here; the only difference is that you are now mildly aware of it.

 

[RoloX2]

P.S.

Y'know...I should be angry. I even want to be angry (catharsis?), but cannot be angry. It is strange. Where is it? Where did it go? Maybe that part of my limbic system finally broke, too.

I am sorta hurt. I think. Maybe I should be, but, like anger, that seems to be on hiatus too.

Why? Pearls to pigs?

I spent hours researching, sharing, preparing, and posting in just this one thread for the sole purpose of strengthening fellow Christians. After all, I have somewhat-unique experiences directly on topic, so I have to share what I know. I would be quite crummy if I didn't give my best effort. These are people in search of Almighty G-d's truth like I am, so it would be awesome to grow with them!

If that isn't love, then what is? Frilly foo-foo affectations?

Hours. Hours that could have been spent playing Guild Wars (because that is why I am here, after all). And I get slammed for being devoid of love, not using scripture (WHAT!?), flaming, bashing. The salt-on-the-wound is: my point-of-Biblical-Truth goes ignored.

Tell me if what I am getting from this is true: My time is better spent playing Guild Wars.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Can you elaborate?

/me sweeps hand over head. (I don't see it.)

I'd be happy to.

Discord was already here; the only difference is that you are now mildly aware of it.

Do you stone prostitutes on the weekend, too?

Have you even read this thread prior to posting?

Rolo, there is perfect truth in what your point was. As I said, I agree with you completely as far as the topic goes. You cannot argue against Scripture; to do so would be arguing against God Himself, and it is the basis for all truth and meaning. You and I hold Scripture in the same reverence; in fact, when I led a weekly Bible Study in game the one rule governing discussion was "sola Scriptura". Any other opinions are inherently flawed.

However, consider Proverbs 11:12:

A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue.

Or Proverbs 12:18:

Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Or Proverbs 25:15:

Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.

Or James 1:26:

If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Rolo, I have no problem with any instruction you have given. My only problem is with your sarcasm (quoted above). I'm particularly sensitive to this because I have a serious problem with sarcasm IRL. I've taken to the practice of rereading each post and eliminating sarcasm whenever I post something serious.

P.S.

Y'know...I should be angry. I even want to be angry (catharsis?), but cannot be angry. It is strange. Where is it? Where did it go? Maybe that part of my limbic system finally broke, too.

I am sorta hurt. I think. Maybe I should be, but, like anger, that seems to be on hiatus too.

Why? Pearls to pigs?

I spent hours researching, sharing, preparing, and posting in just this one thread for the sole purpose of strengthening fellow Christians. After all, I have somewhat-unique experiences directly on topic, so I have to share what I know. I would be quite crummy if I didn't give my best effort. These are people in search of Almighty G-d's truth like I am, so it would be awesome to grow with them!

If that isn't love, then what is? Frilly foo-foo affectations?

Hours. Hours that could have been spent playing Guild Wars (because that is why I am here, after all). And I get slammed for being devoid of love, not using scripture (WHAT!?), flaming, bashing. The salt-on-the-wound is: my point-of-Biblical-Truth goes ignored.

Tell me if what I am getting from this is true: My time is better spent playing Guild Wars.

Thank you for this. I do want to note that I never intended to slam you. I said your post appeared devoid of love, but I would never suggest that someone who took the time to research and prepare a response (as I have) is devoid of love themselves. What I should have said was that I felt you spoke the truth in an unloving way (sarcasm is, after all, meant to break down, not build up), and I apologize to you for not making that more clear. I also should have pointed to those specific examples first.

Certainly Jesus reacted harshly and mocked the Pharisees, Elijah reacted harshly and mocked the prophets of Baal, but the big difference is that I have met T.J. (astrod00d) and I can tell you firsthand that he is a man who is seeking after God, who was simply uninformed about the scripture which refutes his opinion.

Please also note-- I took the time to read all of your hard work, and I do appreciate the effort it took-- and the finished product. I'll share one example and I'll finish up.

My wife and several women from our church started a study on a book on how to be a better help-meet for their husbands. Several women actually stopped going to the study because although the book was based entirely on Scripture, the author spoke with such vitriol and predicted that women who did not follow her recommendations would have their husbands leave them and be left lonely and penniless. Although Debbie Pearl (the author) poured her heart and soul into the book, she could have written it in such a way that no truth would have been lost, yet it would have been received by many more. Similarly, if you had kept the truth you spoke and left out the sarcasm, the truth would have been just as truthful but better received.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Bill,

Please explain to me then, how saying that people who commit/attempt suicide are "selfish," and questioning their faith, is said out of love. Why is astroods judgmental attitude accepted and approved of, but to call him on it, considered wrong?

I do know that everything Rolo said was out of love. He has an amazing level of compassion for those who are hurting. (Like Christ did ) It is one of the things I admire most about him. In his post, I see him defending those who have been effected by this issue, and pointing out how wrong it is to condemn someone for their sin. He is passionate about this.


He is just as passionate about finding the Truth. No one who has posted that suicide is unforgivable has been able to back it up with scripture. What he is saying is that any opinions that come strictly from man are by nature valueless, because we are sinners, and our sin nature leads us to believe all kinds of un-truths. He is calling people to really think about the things they are saying, and be able to defend those positions with scripture, not conjecture.

I hope you can re-read Rolos post, and view it in the spirit in which it was posted.

I believe that my above post addressed most of what you have concerns about (legitimate concerns, I might add). As for what has not been addressed--

As far as Astro, Rolo already stated the relevant scriptures and pointed out the flaws in his statements, so I didn't feel it necessary to voice anything further other than that I affirmed the truth in Rolo's post while disagreeing with the method of delivery. Your point is well taken, however, and I do agree after rereading this thread several times (and losing sleep over it) that I should have reiterated the points for clarification.

If either of you have other concerns, I would be happy to address them. As I said above, it was simply the sarcasm which led me to feel that the post was written in an unloving manner, and I should have been more specific about that.

 

[RoloX2]

My only problem is with your sarcasm (quoted above). I'm particularly sensitive to this because I have a serious problem with sarcasm IRL.

I believe sarcasm is not improper in some instances and wonderful in others.

However, the comment wasn't sarcastic at all; I was illustrating a direct parallel. I assume we all agree that stoning prostitues is wrong. I correlated treating prostitues in such a manner and treating suicide victims in such a manner is no different, ergo both are wrong.

The comment was also supposed to add a little levity, but apparently it did not. Even being furious has never prevented me from injecting humour.

This is one of those scenarios where text only, no countenance can be a big problem. In the absence of that, we likely fill that blank with our own experiences and habits. (If we were raised in a hostile household, we would put a hostile spin on something read; if we were raised in a peaceful, lighthearted household, we wouldn't read things as threatening, etc.) I would take it that you have had bad experiences with sarcasm and I can understand your taking exception to it. For me, I had a messed up upbringing and tend to be defensive. Perhaps you and I have had similar experiences..?

(sarcasm is, after all, meant to break down, not build up),

Yes. To replace a weak, flawed structure with a new, proper one, we must first raze it.

Certainly Jesus reacted harshly and mocked the Pharisees, Elijah reacted harshly and mocked the prophets of Baal, but the big difference is that I have met T.J. (astrod00d) and I can tell you firsthand that he is a man who is seeking after God,

I never met astrod00d and certainly we take whatever I have to say in that context. He is here, so I will assume he is a man after G-d's own heart. I also wondered if 'astrod00d' is a permutation of 'AstroCreep'. (Sorry for talking about you, astro, in the third person.)

Given my assumption (and your assertion), a G-dly man would take being equated to a Pharisee seriously ("Whooa! I'm no Pharisee! What's he talking about!?" and would look into it.) and would also understand what I meant/would get the reference without my explaining who the Pharisees were in the NT.

who was simply uninformed about the scripture which refutes his opinion.

And that is my only 'beef'...I thought the preceeding messages were very informative. Since they were not read/were ignored/failed to get attention and given the distinct lack of a scripturally-based response, a starker post was in order. ("The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result." -either Einstein or Franklin)

 

[mist_01]

For my two cents i had the same opinion when i read your post. It had good points but it could have been stated in a more uplifting way. Yes, wrong ideas need to be corrected but it is better if it can be done in a loving way. If it is the repeating that is annoying you, you could simply quote yourself as well. Again, this is not against you, just a suggestion that it could have been stated lovingly while still getting the same points across.

 

[astrod00d]

RoloX2, I'm terribly sorry that I offended you. I was simply trying to convey my thoughts on the subject. I'm by no means saying that I am right nor am I passing judgement. I'm not saying that people who commit suicide will or even should go to hell. I'm just saying that's how I understand it. I may quite possibly (more like probably) be wrong in my assessment because I'm not very well versed in the Bible yet and can only draw my conclusions from my own knowledge of the Word and what I've been lead to believe throughout my life.

This is the first time I've read anything from you because I just recently returned to the SoE forums and I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed in your reaction and reckless candor. I'm not really offended by it but I am a little worried about how you went off on me without even knowing me. What if I wasn't a Christian and was here just offering my opinion and possibly seeking God or answers about God? If I got a response from a supposed Christian like the one you gave, I don't think I'd be very impressed and maybe even dissuaded from deciding to follow Jesus.

If I say something that's obviously wrong or refuted in the Bible, please let me know about it and show me why I'm wrong so I can learn from it.

For the record, suicide is a sin and sin cannot send you to hell because it has already been forgiven. However, if you do not believe in Jesus and thus are not awarded his salvation, you will be judged and go to hell upon death. Am I wrong? The way I worded it before was this: "It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell." Please tell me if this is wrong. I'd hate to keep believing it if it were.

Here's another question that just popped into my head. When a non-believer faces judgement, is that pretty much a one-way ticket to hell or are there other consequences that don't include hell?

Oh, and thanks Bill for stepping in and helping us out here. That just shows how good of a leader you are.

 

[Safora]

Posting at work so this might be rushed...

What if I wasn't a Christian and was here just offering my opinion and possibly seeking God or answers about God? If I got a response from a supposed Christian like the one you gave, I don't think I'd be very impressed and maybe even dissuaded from deciding to follow Jesus.

By being here it is implied that you are a Christian. So to say that you could have been a non Christian isn't accurate.

"Supposed Christian" is a very judgemental thing to say. What gives you the right to question anothers salvation? That is exactly that attitude that you were being called on.


Rolo does an excellent job at witnessing and I am not saying that because he is my husband. He is the reason I came to Christ and that was no easy task.

If I say something that's obviously wrong or refuted in the Bible, please let me know about it and show me why I'm wrong so I can learn from it.

If all the logic and scripture posted so far hasn't changed your mind, I'm not sure what will.

However, if you do not believe in Jesus and thus are not awarded his salvation, you will be judged and go to hell upon death. Am I wrong?... "It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell." Please tell me if this is wrong. I'd hate to keep believing it if it were.

Again you are questioning anothers faith. You are assuming that anyone who comitted suicide automatically isn't a real Christian. Can you give scripture to explain why you make that assumption?


Sin, by definition means we didn't "have enough faith" to remain free of sin. If "having enough faith" were issue, then we would all be condemed. To be saved we need to believe that Jesus is Lord and died for our sins, and we need to repent, that is all.


Example...a husband who is in a marriage where his spouse wont be intimate with him...he strays...does this mean that he did not have enough faith that Jesus would eventually restore his marriage...and is therefore going to hell? This is the same thing.


Hopefully we can now get back to the topic and ignore the "presentation."

 

[RoloX2]

It's the Stephen King thread--IT WON'T DIE

For the record, suicide is a sin and sin cannot send you to hell because it has already been forgiven.

Correct; however, your original judgemental post did not state that:

If you do this selfishly to end your life so that you don't have to bear something, I believe you will go to hell.

I was simply trying to convey my thoughts on the subject. I'm by no means saying that I am right nor am I passing judgement.

"Oh, I didn't mean it?" I do not agree. You stated a belief without uncertainty and asserted they are selfish. No take-backs, neener-neener!

I'm not saying that people who commit suicide will or even should go to hell. I'm just saying that's how I understand it.

That is not what you posted. Do you have a clear understanding now? (that was the goal here)

This is the first time I've read anything from you because I just recently returned to the SoE forums and I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed in your reaction and reckless candor. I'm not really offended by it but I am a little worried about how you went off on me without even knowing me. What if I wasn't a Christian and was here just offering my opinion and possibly seeking God or answers about God?

In other words, "What if things were completely different, what would you do?" I would do something completely different.

A non-believer in this thread is an entirely different scenario. Someone suggested I quote myself (which means you aren't listening):

If an unsaved person contemplating suicide decided to seek G-d, stumbled in here (or anywhere), and saw the Christian's condemning attitudes demonstrated in this thread, do you think they would post?

Or, more likely--what I already explained--the Christian--a supposed representative of Christ--validated the suicidal person's notions that they are not worthy of life, or anything, the selfish ingrates...Which comes across as G-d Himself stating that they are evil and should be put to death. The Christian convinced the victim that suicide is the right thing to do.​

How may of you would kill yourselves to make things a little easier for those around you? That is the last, selfless act of many suicide victims...which makes them more Christ-like than those who would condemn them to the Lake of Fire for being selfish.​

​

In this thread, so far, a non-believer sees that Christians can be judgemental and condescending of the 'sinners', sees another Christian finding that is wrong, then other Christians giving him flak for the delivery, eclipsing the point.

What do you see? (I would have appreciated it if you would have answered my question before asking me the very same question. I believe your behaviour to be rude.)

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

"Supposed Christian" is a very judgemental thing to say. What gives you the right to question anothers salvation? That is exactly that attitude that you were being called on....

Hopefully we can now get back to the topic and ignore the "presentation."

Well stated, good catch. We should NEVER question another believer's salvation.

 

[Safora]

Well stated, good catch. We should NEVER question another believer's salvation.

On another board that I post on, it is a TOS violation to question another members salvation. I wonder if that would be a good thing to add to the TOJ charter?

 

[ajmucha]

I would support adding that to the charter.

 

[astrod00d]

I wasn't questioning your faith Rolox2. I was entertaining a hypothetical scenario where a non-Christian visits the forum and is confronted by someone he supposes is a Christian. I'm sorry that it was interpreted that way.

I don't know why you posted that I was trying to take back what I said. I wasn't and I can't understand why you are interpreting it that way. It seems to me that most of what I've posted has been misunderstood.

I gotta get back to work but I'll check back later to continue the conversation.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

I think something that we can all learn from this thread would be that it is incredibly difficult to convey emotions and intent through text. I vote that we all take a step back and start out by having a healthy swig of benefit of the doubt, chased by a shooter of asking for clarification.

I believe that we (myself included) have reacted to what we perceive is being said rather than the intention of the writer. Rolo, Astro, Safora, please accept my apology.

 

[mist_01]

It so cool when we can disagree and misunderstand each other but still show the love of God in the way we work around our misunderstandings. Thats Christ working in our lives.

I think something that we can all learn from this thread would be that it is incredibly difficult to convey emotions and intent through text. I vote that we all take a step back and start out by having a healthy swig of benefit of the doubt, chased by a shooter of asking for clarification.

I believe that we (myself included) have reacted to what we perceive is being said rather than the intention of the writer. Rolo, Astro, Safora, please accept my apology.

 

[RoloX2]

I wasn't questioning your faith Rolox2. I was entertaining a hypothetical scenario where a non-Christian visits the forum and is confronted by someone he supposes is a Christian. I'm sorry that it was interpreted that way.

I interpreted that the way you meant it, purely hypothetical and not questioning my salvation. (not that it matters...every other aspect of my character wasn't given the benefit of the doubt, at this point, it is moot)

However, riddle me this: How do I interpret your not answering any of my on-topic questions? That was the second post you made as if none of my prior posts even existed..!..?

Ignoring my pertinent conversation is the highest insult anyone can do to me and my pointing that out also goes ignored.


My time can be spent where I am welcome. I am very uncomfortable here; I should not have come. (The why's & how's do not matter; it is what it is and I am tired.)

Please delete my account.

 

[Safora]

Good bye everyone. God Bless.

Please delete me as well.

 

[mist_01]

i am truly sorry to see you Go. God Bless.

 

[DZwart]

I've been making a really strong effort to get caught up on the forums over the last couple days. I'm sad to see how this thread ended up with Rolo and Safora leaving the guild (no new posts and left the in-game guild). For now, I'm going to close this thread until I have a chance to review the thread further (more than a few quick breaks at work) and reflect a little on this.

Rolo and Safora - In case you do look in on us, we do not delete accounts, you are ALWAYS welcome to return or contact any of us in-game.

EDIT: Oops, I can't lock this. Please refrain from further posts for now though.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

However, I can lock the thread.