Is Suicide The Ultimate Sin?
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RoloX2
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A successful suicide would be the ultimate sin. "Ultimate" means "final" and nothing more.
Is suicide a cardinal sin? No.
Precision with words is important; many incorrect beliefs/conclusions stem from imprecise language.
That is Catholic doctrine, not biblical.
Is suicide a cardinal sin? No.
Precision with words is important; many incorrect beliefs/conclusions stem from imprecise language.
That is Catholic doctrine, not biblical.
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RoloX2
New Member
We can--and do--say that without killing ourselves. Just like adultery, the sin is not contingent upon the completion of the deed. (Matthew 5:28)
Spirit of Elijah you say? Elijah "had enough" and wanted his life to end. (1 Kings 19)
Moses felt his burden was too heavy with no end in sight and demanded that G-d end his life. (Numbers 11:10)
Jonah was optimistic in chapter 2, but suicidal in chapter 4.
Then there's Job...
Both, the American and the Arab in this scenario are noble. Both are dying for a cause they believe is just and both believe they are taking the right course of action. The only difference is that one is misguided. Christ died for both. (Romans 14:14)
RoloX2
New Member
That whole assertion is selfish and self-contradictory.
You cannot condemn somebody for 'not thinking of others' when said others are obviously not thinking of him and only of themselves, yet, they call him selfish. This, in turn, furthers the suicidal person's belief that "*I* don't matter" and therefore the death would largely be inconsequential.
I cannot believe how popular the appalling thought, "You killed yourself; how can you do this to me?" is.
"How can you do this to me?" is for someone who stole your cat, not who ended his own life.
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RoloX2
New Member
Really?
Absurd.
Do you condescend because you know someone who attempted/comitted suicide and resent them or just because you have no idea why a person would commit such an act? Or is it that you, yourself have been suicidal but couldn't commit to such finality and the "holier than thou" defence is preferable to feeling like a coward?
These types of attitudes give a suicidal person the go-ahead. The uncompassionate debase a person struggling as a narcissist/freak/weak/selfish/coward/worthless, which validates the person's hopelessness and confirms that there is no way out. Besides, if those around them aren't concerned when they are living, what difference could it make when they are dead?
RoloX2
New Member
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 6:12
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38
Stc95
Tribe of Judah Guild Wars Chapter Leader
i think someone wants to increase his post count. 5 in a row, that has to be a new record..
Safora
New Member
Saying that the one who comitts suicide is selfish shows a lack of understanding. Someone who is at that point in their lives is desperate. They have no other answers. They cannot stop the pain. They feel unloved, unworthy, worthless. They cannot fathom that they may cause others pain by their death. If they do not feel valued in their life, then how can they believe that their death would matter to anyone?
Do you consider one who is in extreme physical pain selfish for being unable to focus on anything else? Do you fault them for wanting the pain to stop, even if it means their death. Emotional pain is just as real.
I think people blame the victim when someone suicides because they need to clear their own consience. They don't want to have to ask themselves if they had done all they could to help this person before it happened. There are many times no one could have known. But there are just as many when it is obvious there is a problem and people look the other way.
More thoughts to come...
Do you consider one who is in extreme physical pain selfish for being unable to focus on anything else? Do you fault them for wanting the pain to stop, even if it means their death. Emotional pain is just as real.
I think people blame the victim when someone suicides because they need to clear their own consience. They don't want to have to ask themselves if they had done all they could to help this person before it happened. There are many times no one could have known. But there are just as many when it is obvious there is a problem and people look the other way.
More thoughts to come...
RoloX2
New Member
Is there a prize for the highest score or something?
pro·jec·tion
/prəˈdʒɛk
–noun 1.a projecting or protruding part. 2.the state or fact of jutting out or protruding. 3.a causing to jut or protrude. 4.the act, process, or result of projecting. 5.Cartography. a systematic construction of lines drawn on a plane surface representative of and corresponding to the meridians and parallels of the curved surface of the earth or celestial sphere. 6.Photography. a.the act of reproducing on a surface, by optical means, a remote image on a film, slide, etc. b.an image so reproduced. 7.the act of visualizing and regarding an idea or the like as an objective reality. 8.something that is so visualized and regarded. 9.calculation of some future thing: They fell short of their projection for the rate of growth. 10.the act of communicating distinctly and forcefully to an audience. 11.Psychology. a.the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself, or to regard external reality as embodying such feelings, thoughts, etc., in some way. b.Psychoanalysis. such an ascription relieving the ego of a sense of guilt or other intolerable feeling. 12.the act of planning or scheming. 13.Alchemy. the casting of the powder of philosophers' stone upon metal in fusion, to transmute it into gold or silver.
mist_01
New Member
nope, ive done more than that
Sqweak all
On freewill and predestination I actually believe in both. I don't believe the concepts are opposite, only based on perspective. Here is part of my theory on the duality of God and Man: God starts a ball rolling down a hill. To the ball (Man) it is not being held, manipulated or controlled once it leaves God's hand. Neither is the ball aware of the one who started it rolling (although it may come to believe in him later). To it only it's actions and the inevitable (but deniable) act of rolling down the hill (life) effect it thus to itself it appears to have free will. To God who knows all the factors about the ball, the hill and rolls perfectly he can put the ball anywhere he wants it. In a larger sense this can be applied to the creation of the whole universe as he would only have to start the ball rolling ,but, having absolute knowledge could create everything to his will by one perfect act (akin to a very large game of pool or dominoes
). Thus from our perspective we have free will but from God's our destinies are pre-ordained. This does not mean God did not act directly on Earth in the form of Jesus, miracles and so forth. It only means that with absolute knowledge and the original cause he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control.
On suicide I will just say I think the idea that suicide was unforgivable came from the fact that since your last act is a sin you could not accept Jesus (or repent or whatever Catholics did in the past). However, there is certainly a moment just before anyone passes on and since God is without time limitations all it would take is a moment for God to directly save you. There are accounts of people in a near death experience (unconscious state) accepting Jesus and being given a choice of living or going to heaven. This seems to validate the idea anyone can be saved. Quickly googling Catholic and suicide it appears that they currently believe in similar views http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4~id~676.php
Ur... ah... I'd just like to point out the Muslim and Christian motivations are in reality opposite regarding this. First I am viewing Jawsofwar as a Christian as I assume that is where his morality comes from not America and the Arab Idea of blowing yourself up comes directly from Islam. The Muslim believes that if he dies while killing infidels he is sent to a martyr's heaven. Since salvation is by works in Islam this is regarded as the best thing he can do for HIS OWN SALVATION. Let me clarify he is literally sending people "infidels" to hell for his (and his family's) own salvation. It is for selfish reasons, although he has most certainly been deceived and is deceiving himself into thinking it is noble. If you doubt ask yourself couldn't he do more for a cause if instead of blowing himself up he simply fought till the end? In most situations the bomb could be planted and he could walk away (and some Muslims do) ,but, he has chosen to die in addition to that cause. The Christian doctrine is "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13 Thus the Christian dies redeeming not condemning someone, furthermore, there is no promise of heaven for having done so. I've seen the Koran verses that elude to "martyr's heaven" but I'd have to go look it up and I'm tired and I need to stop posting, I'm not getting anything done
On freewill and predestination I actually believe in both. I don't believe the concepts are opposite, only based on perspective. Here is part of my theory on the duality of God and Man: God starts a ball rolling down a hill. To the ball (Man) it is not being held, manipulated or controlled once it leaves God's hand. Neither is the ball aware of the one who started it rolling (although it may come to believe in him later). To it only it's actions and the inevitable (but deniable) act of rolling down the hill (life) effect it thus to itself it appears to have free will. To God who knows all the factors about the ball, the hill and rolls perfectly he can put the ball anywhere he wants it. In a larger sense this can be applied to the creation of the whole universe as he would only have to start the ball rolling ,but, having absolute knowledge could create everything to his will by one perfect act (akin to a very large game of pool or dominoes
). Thus from our perspective we have free will but from God's our destinies are pre-ordained. This does not mean God did not act directly on Earth in the form of Jesus, miracles and so forth. It only means that with absolute knowledge and the original cause he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control.On suicide I will just say I think the idea that suicide was unforgivable came from the fact that since your last act is a sin you could not accept Jesus (or repent or whatever Catholics did in the past). However, there is certainly a moment just before anyone passes on and since God is without time limitations all it would take is a moment for God to directly save you. There are accounts of people in a near death experience (unconscious state) accepting Jesus and being given a choice of living or going to heaven. This seems to validate the idea anyone can be saved. Quickly googling Catholic and suicide it appears that they currently believe in similar views http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4~id~676.php
Ur... ah... I'd just like to point out the Muslim and Christian motivations are in reality opposite regarding this. First I am viewing Jawsofwar as a Christian as I assume that is where his morality comes from not America and the Arab Idea of blowing yourself up comes directly from Islam. The Muslim believes that if he dies while killing infidels he is sent to a martyr's heaven. Since salvation is by works in Islam this is regarded as the best thing he can do for HIS OWN SALVATION. Let me clarify he is literally sending people "infidels" to hell for his (and his family's) own salvation. It is for selfish reasons, although he has most certainly been deceived and is deceiving himself into thinking it is noble. If you doubt ask yourself couldn't he do more for a cause if instead of blowing himself up he simply fought till the end? In most situations the bomb could be planted and he could walk away (and some Muslims do) ,but, he has chosen to die in addition to that cause. The Christian doctrine is "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13 Thus the Christian dies redeeming not condemning someone, furthermore, there is no promise of heaven for having done so. I've seen the Koran verses that elude to "martyr's heaven" but I'd have to go look it up and I'm tired and I need to stop posting, I'm not getting anything done
Safora
New Member
Jesus' death on the cross saved everyone that chose to believe. Why are we told repeatedly to seek/knock etc. if God is only going to pick whom he wants anyway. That would be futile.
And while inconsequential to the Truth, I have trouble with predestination on a personal level. I cannot imagine God ever really choosing me. So if I think salvation is only for the elect, it is not a far leap for me to decide that I could not ever be one of those people and I am not really saved, and how would I really know...and on and on. It is not good for my head.
Safora
New Member
Suicide
To say that you would not be saved if you committed suicide is the same as saying that you must confess every sin in order to be saved, because all sins are equal in the eyes of God. In that case, if you died with any un-confessed sin, you would go to Hell. I think we would all be in trouble.
But then I wonder is it possible to believe in (trust in, rely on) God and still commit suicide? Is suicide proof of not being saved? I don't think so.
Or is all sin and disobedience in our life proof that we fail to trust God on a regular basis and therefore this act is no different than any other. Just more proof that we are sinners living in a fallen world.
Or will God stop you from committing the act if he so chooses?
The Ultimate Sin
(Sounds like a TV reality show title)
If there is one, it is probably blasphemy of the spirit.
Sdenotter... You said that this was a topic your dad preached on. What was his take on it?
********
Actually yes, you can hate yourself that much. Imagine thinking you are evil, and poisonous and that you hurt everything you touch. Imagine believing that those closest to you would actually be better off without you.
Or that you have no one close to you that cares about you. That you don't matter to anyone and no one would notice if you died.
I understand it can be hard to empathize as it doesn't always make rational sense. But emotional disorders skew your judgment. I do believe that being in that type of distress can make one somewhat self involved, but again, if you were in intractable physical pain, would you be able to think of much else?
To say that you would not be saved if you committed suicide is the same as saying that you must confess every sin in order to be saved, because all sins are equal in the eyes of God. In that case, if you died with any un-confessed sin, you would go to Hell. I think we would all be in trouble.
But then I wonder is it possible to believe in (trust in, rely on) God and still commit suicide? Is suicide proof of not being saved? I don't think so.
Or is all sin and disobedience in our life proof that we fail to trust God on a regular basis and therefore this act is no different than any other. Just more proof that we are sinners living in a fallen world.
Or will God stop you from committing the act if he so chooses?
The Ultimate Sin
(Sounds like a TV reality show title)
If there is one, it is probably blasphemy of the spirit.
Sdenotter... You said that this was a topic your dad preached on. What was his take on it?
********
Actually yes, you can hate yourself that much. Imagine thinking you are evil, and poisonous and that you hurt everything you touch. Imagine believing that those closest to you would actually be better off without you.
Or that you have no one close to you that cares about you. That you don't matter to anyone and no one would notice if you died.
I understand it can be hard to empathize as it doesn't always make rational sense. But emotional disorders skew your judgment. I do believe that being in that type of distress can make one somewhat self involved, but again, if you were in intractable physical pain, would you be able to think of much else?
one2dredd
Tribe of Judah Aion Chapter Leader
I am really enjoying everyone's Comments! thanks for keeping it civil! This is how we grow as Christians and learn to love each other even if we may not agree on a point but the main fact is we love Jesus and that is the most important thing!
RoloX2
New Member
To sin against another (Christian or otherwise) is to sin against G-d Himself. To hurt another it to hurt someone He loves. Knowing this, I try to treat everyone as such. (it takes concious effort)
Additionally, a group of Christians is utopian in nature, and I would hate to spoil that.
Until I finally understood this concept, I was a very good Pharisee. Having my white-washed tombstone-ness revealed to me was probably the worst feeling I have ever had (and I've had a lot of awful feelings...and yes, to the point of being suicidal). The plus-side, though, is that it was a crash-course in humility.
What I am trying to say (and by the prior uncommented scriptures) is that I attack concepts/thoughts/ideas, not the person(s) affiliated with them. I want to know the truth and I detest lies in any form. A slightly distorted truth is what subverted man into The Fall; it worked then and it works now.
Back to the topic...The only reason, ultimately, I have not killed myself: To do so would be my calling G-d a liar; I could not act on such an incorrect premise.
G-d says I would never be tempted/burdened beyond what I can bear. I cannot say to Him, "You are wrong."
RoloX2
New Member
Brilliant!
![[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff](/forums/data/avatars/m/1/1206.jpg?1442680067){kind=avatar}
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff
New Member
I saw a perfect example of how I believe predestination and free will interact in The Mystery of God's Will by Chuck Swindoll.
He believes that it's like we are on a boat from point A to point B. While we are on the boat, we are free to do whatever we want, talk to whoever we want, etc. However, nothing we do will change the fact that eventually we will end up at point B.
I think this is a perfect analogy where someone would have both free will and be predestined at the same time. I don't know what he says about someone trying to jump overboard (I'm guessing for the sake of his point that wouldn't be possible.)
He believes that it's like we are on a boat from point A to point B. While we are on the boat, we are free to do whatever we want, talk to whoever we want, etc. However, nothing we do will change the fact that eventually we will end up at point B.
I think this is a perfect analogy where someone would have both free will and be predestined at the same time. I don't know what he says about someone trying to jump overboard (I'm guessing for the sake of his point that wouldn't be possible.)
hmmm...Sqweak!
Um are you being sarcastic or agreeing? I can't tell (sorry). Since you only posted the end of the sentence I'm guessing you think it is contradictory, but, if you understood the paragraph above it, it's not where God is concerned. Let me clarify. The argument you are expressing with freewill vs. predestination is identical to the "can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it" one. You are saying can God create something that is beyond his will. He should be able to because he is God and can do anything, but, if he does it then it's beyond his will and he is not doing it. Let me post my answer with a excerpt from another of my posts.
"Let me answer with the "Can God create a Rock so big he cannot lift it" argument. God created the rock. God created the time within the rock would be lifted. God created the concept of up and down. And God created any perception you would have of the rock being lifted. The Answer to this question is both yes and no. You see the one who makes the rules is not bound by them. Most people would say that something cannot be off/up and on/down at the same time, however, there is research being done on that very thing http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/fourier.htm There are arguments however I would place against this as the 3rd state could simply be considered unknown or neutral (things can have a neutral state unlike people) Neither do I know anything about quantum mechanics to prove or disprove it on a math level."
When you were a child was everything your father did logical to you? He certainly did things that to your mind you could not logical say how they could be. God's logic not only includes anything we know, but, includes what everything that we know is based on. Consequently if you only know the outcome that the basis is dependant on you know nothing as changing the basis changes the outcome. It's like playing a game wherein God made all the rules and you can never know all the rules. You move your piece one space, repeating the action you think you are free to move again, but, you find you can't and God speaks up and says there was a rule that says you can only move X number of times. Everything we know about physics and the laws of nature are circumspect when you have no basis for them. God's logic supersedes ours. If a man tossed a ball we would say he is not in complete control of where it goes because he does not toss perfectly, or know everything (a wind could kick up etc.). When we say a man is "in complete control" of anything it is not true. Man can never be in complete control because he is imperfect, but, people still use the term to indicate direct control or "holding the ball" (and sometimes for extreme skill). If God tosses the ball he does not have to be holding it to be in complete control as he is perfect and knows all the factors. The wind will never blow when he does not want it because he made the wind to blow based on knowing everything to begin with.
Perhaps I should have said God does not have to be in direct control to be in complete control instead of "he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control". I did not because I considered the definition of direct control to be inapplicable to God as it's based on distance and distance is irrelevant to the amount of control God exerts (but not so with Man). I also wanted to stress that the contradiction is inapplicable to God as well. I think the original phrase compares closer to how both free will and total control (apparently contradictory things to Men) are possible at the same time.
I pray this explains better. Mr. Wild Bill beat me to posting and is much more succinct, but, I wrote this thing so I'm posting it! On a side note what Christian denomination are you or are you a Messianic Jew? I noticed the G-d, very respectful (and no I am not being sarcastic I like it ). Anyway back to suicide !
Um are you being sarcastic or agreeing? I can't tell (sorry). Since you only posted the end of the sentence I'm guessing you think it is contradictory, but, if you understood the paragraph above it, it's not where God is concerned. Let me clarify. The argument you are expressing with freewill vs. predestination is identical to the "can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it" one. You are saying can God create something that is beyond his will. He should be able to because he is God and can do anything, but, if he does it then it's beyond his will and he is not doing it. Let me post my answer with a excerpt from another of my posts.
"Let me answer with the "Can God create a Rock so big he cannot lift it" argument. God created the rock. God created the time within the rock would be lifted. God created the concept of up and down. And God created any perception you would have of the rock being lifted. The Answer to this question is both yes and no. You see the one who makes the rules is not bound by them. Most people would say that something cannot be off/up and on/down at the same time, however, there is research being done on that very thing http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/fourier.htm There are arguments however I would place against this as the 3rd state could simply be considered unknown or neutral (things can have a neutral state unlike people) Neither do I know anything about quantum mechanics to prove or disprove it on a math level."
When you were a child was everything your father did logical to you? He certainly did things that to your mind you could not logical say how they could be. God's logic not only includes anything we know, but, includes what everything that we know is based on. Consequently if you only know the outcome that the basis is dependant on you know nothing as changing the basis changes the outcome. It's like playing a game wherein God made all the rules and you can never know all the rules. You move your piece one space, repeating the action you think you are free to move again, but, you find you can't and God speaks up and says there was a rule that says you can only move X number of times. Everything we know about physics and the laws of nature are circumspect when you have no basis for them. God's logic supersedes ours. If a man tossed a ball we would say he is not in complete control of where it goes because he does not toss perfectly, or know everything (a wind could kick up etc.). When we say a man is "in complete control" of anything it is not true. Man can never be in complete control because he is imperfect, but, people still use the term to indicate direct control or "holding the ball" (and sometimes for extreme skill). If God tosses the ball he does not have to be holding it to be in complete control as he is perfect and knows all the factors. The wind will never blow when he does not want it because he made the wind to blow based on knowing everything to begin with.
Perhaps I should have said God does not have to be in direct control to be in complete control instead of "he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control". I did not because I considered the definition of direct control to be inapplicable to God as it's based on distance and distance is irrelevant to the amount of control God exerts (but not so with Man). I also wanted to stress that the contradiction is inapplicable to God as well. I think the original phrase compares closer to how both free will and total control (apparently contradictory things to Men) are possible at the same time.
I pray this explains better. Mr. Wild Bill beat me to posting and is much more succinct, but, I wrote this thing so I'm posting it!
On a side note what Christian denomination are you or are you a Messianic Jew? I noticed the G-d, very respectful (and no I am not being sarcastic I like it ). Anyway back to suicide !
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RoloX2
New Member
That phrase is brilliant and I will use it. It succinctly states, as a working definition, how G-d's soverignty and our free will coexist.
I don't necessarily agree with the preceding portions (without clarification, anyway).
That question is invalid since it is self-contradictory. You cannot/should not entertain an inarguable agument which stipulates the logically impossible.
Much like,
"This statement is false."
RoloX2
New Member
No. That is because he is a wicked putz.
For which this can be tied to the original topic of suicide. People assume everyone else has a typical father, mother, maybe some siblings, relatives, etc. who do the whole family thing. Not everyone does.
I have no family with whom I speak, no familial ties, and never a bond. I have my wife and that is all.
You cannot imagine what that is like just like I cannot imagine what having those things is like; I can only academically understand it from a developmental psychology/abnormal psychology perspective.
Classical or General Projection (as opposed to Freudian Projection) is assuming others act or perceive the same as you. This is frequently a barrier to communicating with someone and is frequently a barrier to understanding someone. You cannot witness to someone if you do not understand them...and they will likely use that against you.
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