Is Suicide The Ultimate Sin?

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Had to hurry this post hope there are no mistakes

My Bad about the Father thing. The fact is I actually did consider that you may not have had a Father relationship, but, did not contemplate a alternative (ok I was just burnt out on answering the questions and the questions to those questions and etc. etc.) So I just used the analogy for God which Jesus does to get that dual meaning (yes it had a duel meaning). Thinking about it now I could have just said "was everything logical to you as a child?" (which loses the duel meaning). However, you really can't assume that either. It's possible (but much less likely) that one may have amnesia and not remember their childhood. The problem is God can only be spoken of in analogy. Everything we say about him is a approximation. Language itself is a approximation too as it is built on the understanding of the underlying meanings of the individual and therefore communication will always be imperfect. Basically at some point a assumption must be made in order for communication to begin if it's "Do you speak English?". One expects they will respond if they do. However, they may actually speak English, but, be deaf or simplify not want to talk. Since people are not capable of a absolute belief (except maybe self), only probabilities, one must assume something first in order to do anything. I actually think we are agreeing here.

My concept of the duality of Man and God could be said to be based on perspective, are you seeing though Man's eyes or God's? To be clearer God wants to have a relationship with us, but, knowing that we can never fully understand him (as we are) he must have shaped this world to have things that he could use in analogy to explain himself. When we attempt to understand God's love for us we look to the example he gave in Christ, but, do you really think any Earthly action could show the entire expanse of a love that is infinite? When God showed himself to Moses he said if he showed all of himself Moses would die! By the way not everyone knows what it is like to lose a son and certainly no one knows what it is like to die (because you'd be dead ) it requires a imagination to understand Jesus' death on any level (and before you say it yes Christ's sacrifice was also a payment not just a example).

As far as the rock question I do think it is apt to the free will vs.predestination argument because it's the same thing. Both are self-contradictory or you can't have free will and have God be in control. If God has absolute power he should be able to do all things which would include making something that's beyond his power, but, if he makes something beyond his power (either rock or free human will it does not matter) he doesn't have absolute power then. That's by man's logic though not God's. Luke 18:27 "And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." I basically believe with God things that are self-contradictory to man are possible with God. The idea of off and on at the same time illustrates a third alternative in what we considered a yes or no question (although I don't believe in the science or the application of it to Man).

Maybe my answer to the "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" argument will be easier to understand if I phrase it this way.

God creates this huge rock.
A Man looks on as he tries to lift the rock and sees God can't lift it.
The Man says: You couldn't lift that rock!
God says: No I couldn't lift that rock, but, I'm lifting it.
Man says: How???
God says: I'm lifting the planet it's on so I'm lifting it.

You see he is both lifting and not lifting it based on perspective.

I APOLOGIZE FOR GETTING SO OFF TOPIC SORRY, SORRY. Hopefully this will settle the free will vs. predestination issue.

As far Father issues I know Joyce Meyer's father sexually abused her. I tend to wonder how she came to forgive him. Just something you may want to look into. I don't wish to pry. (Joyce Meyer has a large Ministry if you do not know).

BTW my definition of a hurried post is 4+ hours working on it and that only includes the actual writing time not all the thinking time so believe me I do think about everything...a lot.

 

[RoloX2]

Both are self-contradictory or you can't have free will and have God be in control.

Why not? That has to be proven, not assumed.

We have to have free will; if we do not, then the New Testament is bunk and G-d is a liar.

G-d cannot command me to make righteous choice knowing that I do not have free will.

Also, 'love' (in any English or Greek definition) would not exist without free-will.

If God has absolute power he should be able to do all things which would include making something that's beyond his power,

That's the flaw: Omnipotent means that there is nothing beyond His power; the question assumes a contradictory fact-not-established. "Tell me, when did you stop beating your wife?"

That's by man's logic though not God's.

I love the looks I get when non-believers, especially egg-heads (I work with--literally--rocket scientists), are surprised I am a Christian and they ask me what drew me to the Bible and I respond, "Its logic is what drew me to Christ."

They look like they were smacked in the head with a 2x4 and don't know where they are.

 

[RoloX2]

As far Father issues I know Joyce Meyer's father sexually abused her.

There are many more forms of abuse than sexual and all of them distort, destroy, pervert the development of the child-to-be-adult's mind, personality, and cognitive abilities.

I tend to wonder how she came to forgive him.

"That was then, this is now; what do I need to do now to move ahead?" -Me

"The nice thing about having a stunted limbic system (emotions don't work quite correctly) is that I remain objective, detached by default in situations where typical people lose judgement to their emotions." -Me again

"It rains on the just and the unjust in the same manner." -Some scripture somewhere

"Not gonna waste my hate on you" -Metallica

I don't wish to pry.

Some of my past I know of, other parts I do not. The mind's defence mechanism is there for a reason and I am content to let sleeping dogs lie. I've never seen EMDR and the like help anyone, only make them worse (much like the seven returning demons).

The known stuff...."all things...for the betterment...."

(Joyce Meyer has a large Ministry if you do not know).

I just wonder which parts of the Bible have been deleted; apparently 1 Cor 14:34 has been. I didn't get the memo.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Gerbil
I don't wish to pry.

Some of my past I know of, other parts I do not. The mind's defense mechanism is there for a reason and I am content to let sleeping dogs lie. I've never seen EMDR and the like help anyone, only make them worse (much like the seven returning demons).

The known stuff...."all things...for the betterment...."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mighty Gerbil
(Joyce Meyer has a large Ministry if you do not know).

I just wonder which parts of the Bible have been deleted; apparently 1 Cor 14:34 has been. I didn't get the memo.

EEK I don't want to get into 1 Cor 14:34. When you described your father as "wicked putz" I detected some "sleeping dogs that weren't lying very still" and this is also a suicide thread (or was ) so that made me wonder too. I will consider the father subject closed.

"EMDR"?...one google later...at least I've learned something

I love the looks I get when non-believers, especially egg-heads (I work with--literally--rocket scientists), are surprised I am a Christian and they ask me what drew me to the Bible and I respond, "Its logic is what drew me to Christ."

They look like they were smacked in the head with a 2x4 and don't know where they are.

I love hearing that and could not agree more (we are the illogical ones not God)! I don't think I came to Christ because of logic though. I just have always felt his presence. If I did have to give a reason of why I believed when I was a child (because I cannot remember not believing in Jesus, sorry double neg ) it would have been something like... Free love and eternal salvation and all he wants from me is doing what was right anyway? Of course I also thought all the people in America were Christians and those who did not believe in him were in other countries simply too far away to have heard about him

I aparently like the smiley

 

[Safora]

The argument you are expressing with freewill vs. predestination is identical to the "can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it" one. You are saying can God create something that is beyond his will.

Not entirely. I am saying that it is part of Gods will for us to have free will. I believe that God wants us all to be saved, but it is more important in His eyes that we have free will. I want my husband to love me, but I want to know that that love comes from him and not because I some how forced him to love me. Same thing.


Families, perspective etc.

I know I was surprised that people cannot fathom our lack of family. Neither Rolo or I have family and when I tell people that, many are taken aback. I assumed it would be no different than a person saying they have 2 kids vs. 3. I did not expect that some cannot grasp a life without family.

Even some basic words may be misinterpreted. Like Love. How do you understand and accept the Love of an eternal Father when you never saw it from your own father? How do you differentiate what the creator means by love and that which has been corrupted by humans? How can you learn to trust the invisible/omnipotent when the visible/fallible has been your torment? Define Grace to someone who has been the scapegoat all their lives.

Originally Posted by RoloX2
I just wonder which parts of the Bible have been deleted; apparently 1 Cor 14:34 has been. I didn't get the memo.

Yep...right after they deleted 1 Timothy 2:11-14

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

I don't know how you can have a female minister who claims the bible is the inerrant word of God. That is contradictory.

 

[one2dredd]

I don't know how you can have a female minister who claims the bible is the inerrant word of God. That is contradictory.

You have to know the back story of Joyce. She did not want to be a minister and her husband does wear the pants in the family. My mother has been so blessed by her ministry and she has grown so much in the Lord. I believe a woman can be raised up if no man wants to take the responsability. Remember Deborah in the Bible in Judges? She was a Female Judge a Unheard of thing in Bible times. She lead the Israelites for a period of time when no man came forward to take that responsabilty. God uses those who are willing. If a man is not willing than God will raise up a woman. I agree with that a woman should be subject to a man, in fact Joyce's Husband tried to lead the ministry and he felt he could not do it. But I know that Joyce as a wife is subject to her husband she writes about. Joyce's Ministry is geared toward women and with all the bad Childhoods I believe a man would have a hard time reaching todays woman. That is my two cents. The one great thing is in the end it is up to God to judge and if someone is trying to do God's will and reaching the hurting and the lost all the better at least they are doing something and not sitting at home wishing someone would do it. Let God be the judge he will put them in their place or bless them for the efforts.

 

[RoloX2]

When you described your father as "wicked putz" I detected some "sleeping dogs that weren't lying very still"

Oh, I can see how that could come accross that way. Not at all. It wasn't an epithet; it was a terse assessment. My father's actions were illogical and that is why they appeared illogical.

The effects of my childhood still linger and I address those, but the why's and wheretofore's are academic and I don't want to know as there would be no profit in it.

 

[RoloX2]

You have to know the back story of Joyce.

I don't. But I do know the back-story to the New Testament.

We all agree that the NT is the inspired, infallible word of G-d. (I'll assume everyone agreed to the forum's terms)

If G-d called a woman to lead a church, then G-d contradicted Himself and is a liar and a sinner. Since that is impossible, the I Am must Not Be.

If there are undefined exceptions to scriptures, then my sin nature would be interested in the exceptions to many of the famous ten commandments.

Remember Deborah in the Bible in Judges? She was a Female Judge a Unheard of thing in Bible times. She lead the Israelites for a period of time when no man came forward to take that responsabilty.

Deborah was still subject to Barak and G-d commanded Barak to lead the forces (vv. 6-7).

The problem is that Barak trusted Deborah's relationship with G-d more than his own. That's pretty funny, because I've done the same exact thing with Safora. This, to me, shows that the supporting role of a woman has no boundaries, far unlike the "shut up and do what you're told" stereotype we have today.


As far as the Meyers ministry is concerned--according to the web site--is not a women's minstry or targeted towards women. Also, her bio excludes the possibility of her husband being involved. Then there's the Christian watchdog/IRS investigation...the five houses with pools and golf courses....all financed with donations, not book sales. 1 Thess. 5:21

 

[RoloX2]

Let God be the judge he will put them in their place or bless them for the efforts.

Judging, for the purpose of condemning/acquitting, belongs to the LORD.

Judging, for the purpose of truth/validating/fact-checking/using good discretion, is commanded of us by the LORD.

 

[Safora]

You have to know the back story of Joyce.

If "back story" were an excuse for sin, none of us would need a savior.

I believe a woman can be raised up if no man wants to take the responsability.

Circumstance is never license to sin. God requires obedience in everything. That is where faith comes in.



Many times men do not want to take responsibility is because women have taken over that role. The more you allow women in positions of authority the less men will step up.


That is not even the case here. This isn't a situation where there was no one else in a community to teach the word of God so a woman stepped in. This is where a woman set her self up as leader of a church from the beginning.

Joyce's Ministry is geared toward women and with all the bad Childhoods I believe a man would have a hard time reaching todays woman.

Are you saying that God is unable to reach today's woman using the leaders He appointed and instead needs us to go against His will to reach the world? Do you really believe it is ok for a pastor willfully disobey God?


There is plenty of room for women to teach other women, without them setting themselves up as leader/authority over a congregation. Joyce Meyer would have been very effective with her books and conferences for women instead of going against Gods word.



As someone with one of those "bad childhoods" I can say from experience that we need godly male leaders more so than the average woman. True leadership gives us a sense of security we have never had.

The one great thing is in the end it is up to God to judge and if someone is trying to do God's will

Of course it is. And regarding this, He already made His will known.

***

And this all started out as a harmless little conversation about suicide...

 

[one2dredd]

Btw She did not set her self as leader of the church her Husband was the head of the church in the beginning. It started as a Bible Study in their home and it kinda went from there. I was talking with my mother about it and even if she is this horrid person God has used her to strengthen believers. I am not a huge fan of Joyce but I have seen what the Lord has done in my mother's life through her ministry and my Mother is such an amazing woman in the lord since my dad passed away. I have 3 Younger brothers she is raising on her own and if it was not for not just Joyce's Teaching but others My mother would not be the woman of God she is today. She was so afraid to do anything and the Lord has given her such great strength it is amazing to see my mom's personallity change from before my Father's Death to now. Her self Confidance is much greater she was such a fearfull person but the Lord has delivered her from a lot of that. I understand where you both are coming from and i agree mostly with you all. And I apperciate your comments on the subject. God Bless.

 

[RoloX2]

You are rationalising. I can rattle off many good things that came as a result of my sin and ignore the rest, too. The proper application of the Word is become supplanted, which is the Deceiver's goal. You forget: Lucifer is very charismatic and charming, too. Sin wouldn't be a problem if it weren't attractive.

I mentioned this earlier, I; now I will quote it.
From joycemeyer.org:
How did Joyce Meyer Ministries get started?

• Joyce Meyer began teaching the Word of God in 1976 and entered full-time ministry in 1980. She started by developing, coordinating and teaching a weekly meeting as an associate pastor in a church in St. Louis, Missouri. After five years she established her own ministry called Life In The Word. In 2003 the ministry’s name was changed to Joyce Meyer Ministries and the television, radio and magazine titles were changed to Enjoying Everyday Life.

This argument is no different than, "Jesus was a good moral teacher, but he was not G-d."

 

[one2dredd]

The Bible also says the Word of God does not return void. So what can be meant for personal gain God's word can still minister to people and change their lives. That is what I was trying to say.

 

[astrod00d]

To chime in on the topic, I believe that suicide can lead to hell. I don't believe it does in and of itself though. Suicide is defined as the intentional taking of one's own life. If you do this selfishly to end your life so that you don't have to bear something, I believe you will go to hell. Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not commit suicide in a selfish manner. It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell.

On the other hand, if you are in some situation where it was necessary to take your own life to save others, then I don't believe that you will go to hell. Besides, Jesus tells us that there is no greater love than for someone to sacrifice himself for another.

 

[one2dredd]

This is a tough topic for me. My uncle who was a christian did take his own life. He was going through a very messy divorce and his kids were taken totally from him and he was extremely depressed. I don't know but I do hope to see him in heaven but I really don't know if he will be there.

 

[RoloX2]

This is a tough topic for me. My uncle who was a christian did take his own life. He was going through a very messy divorce and his kids were taken totally from him and he was extremely depressed. I don't know but I do hope to see him in heaven but I really don't know if he will be there.

Of course he will be there; you said he was a believer. (Ro 10:9)

If your uncle won't be with the LORD, then neither will we and we can all see each other in the Lake of Fire. (Isa 22:13)

 

[RoloX2]

It's the Ginsu Two Thousand!

To chime in on the topic, I believe that suicide can lead to hell. I don't believe it does in and of itself though. Suicide is defined as the intentional taking of one's own life. If you do this selfishly to end your life so that you don't have to bear something, I believe you will go to hell. Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not commit suicide in a selfish manner. It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell.

Do you stone prostitutes on the weekend, too?

That is blasphemous garbage. (Ro 2:17) Have you even read this thread prior to posting?

Yes, I am peeved and justifiably so. I am tired of people assuming suicidal people are selfish. (That was already addressed.)

Perhaps you (pluaral 'you') will find your life so hopeless and desperate that your mind will open. Then, if you survive--and IT WILL ONLY BE DUE TO CHRIST AND NOT YOURSELF--you will lose that Pharisee-like attitude in favour of a "love your neighbour" one. Remember this the next time you pray for understanding. (Proverbs 17:3, and all of Job, and this, too, was already addressed)

Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not commit suicide in a selfish manner.

Peeved-schmeeved. I am appalled at this haughtiness. This is another "holier-than-thou" attitude that undermines the Gospel and keeps the non-believers away. (Ro 2:24)

What you are saying here is, "Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not sin." Have you sinned recently? Oh, then, if you truly were a Christian, then you wouldn't sin...so you cannot possibly a Christian!

If you sin once, you are a sinner; whether you tell a little lie or kill yourself, it is the same--you broke the law and are a lawbreaker and you need atonement. (Ro 2:25-27, and this, third time, was already discussed)

--+--

Before You Know It, We Have A Golden Calf

Frankly, I do not care what you (again, plural you, as in everyone) think or what your opinion is. It is baseless. It is based on carnal nature, sin nature; it is corrupt and has no knowledge of G-d. (Ro 7:14)

What we do care about is G-d's opinion--His Word--and your experiences in growing in the Word and the things He revealed to you. This is why we are here, isn't it? So stay focused on Christ.


2 Corinthians 10:4, NKJV:

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.​

If you say someone will be eternally separated from G-d, tortured, then you better back it with Scripture, lest we propigate false doctrine, lies.

 

[Safora]

This is a tough topic for me. My uncle who was a christian did take his own life. He was going through a very messy divorce and his kids were taken totally from him and he was extremely depressed. I don't know but I do hope to see him in heaven but I really don't know if he will be there.

I am so sorry for your loss. Since he is a believer he will be there in heaven.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus ~Romans 8:1

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Rolo-- while I agree with your opinion, I strongly disagree with your methods of expressing it.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

However...

11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

You correctly used Scripture to instruct and rebuke, but as far as I can tell, you did so in a way devoid of love. This will encourage two things: firstly, it will encourage a spirit of discord among our community, and secondly, it will encourage folks who might have opinions different from yours to NOT speak up-- and how will you (plural) be able to instruct when no one with a differing opinion speaks out?

Please take this message in the manner which I intended it-- a gentle reminder that this is a community made up of many fallable, imperfect people who are doing their best to try to know the unknowable ways of God through His word, and that we are all at different points along our journey.

 

[Safora]

Bill,

Please explain to me then, how saying that people who commit/attempt suicide are "selfish," and questioning their faith, is said out of love. Why is astroods judgmental attitude accepted and approved of, but to call him on it, considered wrong?

I do know that everything Rolo said was out of love. He has an amazing level of compassion for those who are hurting. (Like Christ did ) It is one of the things I admire most about him. In his post, I see him defending those who have been effected by this issue, and pointing out how wrong it is to condemn someone for their sin. He is passionate about this.


He is just as passionate about finding the Truth. No one who has posted that suicide is unforgivable has been able to back it up with scripture. What he is saying is that any opinions that come strictly from man are by nature valueless, because we are sinners, and our sin nature leads us to believe all kinds of un-truths. He is calling people to really think about the things they are saying, and be able to defend those positions with scripture, not conjecture.

I hope you can re-read Rolos post, and view it in the spirit in which it was posted.