"Inconvenient Truth" and incovenient fallacy?

[MaidMirawyn]

These are the ones Snopes gives, concerning both the Gore and Bush homes.

Sources Sources:

Hall, Kristin. "Conservative Group Says Gore's Home Overuses Electricity." Associated Press Worldstream. 28 February 2007.

McQuillan, Laurence and Judy Keen. "'Texas White House' a Refuge from Stress." USA Today. 13 April 2001.

Sullivan, Rob. "Bush Loves Ecology — At Home." The Chicago Tribune. 29 April 2001.

van Ryzin, Jeanne Claire. "The House That Bush Built." Austin American-Statesman. 18 January 2001 (p. G1).

Walker, Pat. "Bush Ranch Home Takes Shape." Austin American-Statesman. 3 January 2000 (p. B1).

St. Petersburg Times. "Waco Hosts Dignitaries on Visits to Bush Ranch." 10 May 2002 (p. D4).

I saw on a few sites that the Gores pointed to the green energy credits they buy and the projects they fund to make up for it. That's a great thing, but it doesn't change the amount of energy they use. They are two separate issues.

And here is a direct link to "The House that Bush Built."
http://basilsblog.net/pdf/the_house_that_bush_built.pdf

 

[Odale]

Not having Adobe on this computer is not helping, but I find it deeply hard to believe that he would invest years and years of his time doing research, publicizing and promoting this issue, and yet not make the changes to his own home; It's not like he can't afford it. Thats like telling your kids not to wear "those clothes", and walking outside with your pants off with no underwear - its that stupid.

And as far as Bush's house being environmentally friendly - it should be, seeing that he is the president of the US. He needs to set a good example, which is something he hasn't done much of.

Offtopic, but MaidMirawyn, you live in the same city as I do .

More offtopic stuff...

LOL...Just to let you all know, Chevy and Ford ("American Made") cars are mostly made in foreign contries...that said thing is that the Japanese car company Toyota is the closest to an "American Made" car you can find, (even though I hate Toyota)... I think it is 70% made in America...

It's true that Japanese cars such as Toyota and Honda have their cars made here, as it is with BMW and their Spartanburg, SC plant. But, you are completely false in saying Ford's, GM's Chrysler's cars and trucks are assembled elsewhere. If they were, the UAW would die, and (arguably) the three companies would be much better off. You are partially correct in saying some American cars are assembled elsewhere, such as Canada and Mexico... but those are the 51st and 52nd states. They don't count because the ease of transportation is the same as it would be if the cars were assembled in the US.

Most of those are false...they are allowed to give you so much false information...My uncle used to run a dealership...and he said if they say that they are mostly made in America, it is a lie to get you to buy it...it is very rare to find a care mostly made in America...

Why would a dealership lie about where the car is manufactured? I work in one, I know how these things work.

Manufactures and Dealerships have a "thing" that legally allows them to post and say a lot of false info to sell cars...

Thats how Sales works. They say that Product A is better than Product B, but someone else may say Product B is better than Product A. If the customer gets swindled, its their own fault for not doing their homework.

Back to more on topic stuff!

 

[tjguitarz]

You find me a reliable source, and I'll look at it.

Snopes is a pretty reliable source. You'll find all the information you need there. I think there are even lists of sources.

 

[vibrokatana]

Not having Adobe on this computer is not helping, but I find it deeply hard to believe that he would invest years and years of his time doing research, publicizing and promoting this issue, and yet not make the changes to his own home; It's not like he can't afford it. Thats like telling your kids not to wear "those clothes", and walking outside with your pants off with no underwear - its that stupid.

And as far as Bush's house being environmentally friendly - it should be, seeing that he is the president of the US. He needs to set a good example, which is something he hasn't done much of.

Offtopic, but MaidMirawyn, you live in the same city as I do .

More offtopic stuff...



It's true that Japanese cars such as Toyota and Honda have their cars made here, as it is with BMW and their Spartanburg, SC plant. But, you are completely false in saying Ford's, GM's Chrysler's cars and trucks are assembled elsewhere. If they were, the UAW would die, and (arguably) the three companies would be much better off. You are partially correct in saying some American cars are assembled elsewhere, such as Canada and Mexico... but those are the 51st and 52nd states. They don't count because the ease of transportation is the same as it would be if the cars were assembled in the US.


Why would a dealership lie about where the car is manufactured? I work in one, I know how these things work.



Thats how Sales works. They say that Product A is better than Product B, but someone else may say Product B is better than Product A. If the customer gets swindled, its their own fault for not doing their homework.

Back to more on topic stuff!

It's not that they are assembled else where, its that the PARTS are made oversees.

 

[ChickenSoup]

You find me a reliable source, and I'll look at it.

Excuse me? I'm sorry, I guess snopes isn't good enough for you. See Maid's posts on the sources. Please don't flaunt deliberate ignorance of information at me, it makes me feel like I wasted my time trying to explain something.

 

[ppar3566]

I am sorry to come back to the main point of the thread as I think the other things discussed here are really interested but I couldn't help it when I heard people claiming global warming is a load of crap and it got me cranky. I mean this is easy for you guys to say. You are not sitting in the longest most severe drought in existence. One of our capital cites with over a million people now has less than 20% of its water supply left, my capital city has less than 40%. A major town 2 hours from my house is just run dry and has to have water trucked in. Further our country has just taken in refugees from an island that has been covered by rising sea levels.

As for evidence, you might get some articles that suggest it is not true but the overwhelming majority in premier journals (i.e. nature) support global warming.

On a final note don't you think that is a pretty central outcome of God creating the world that we should look after it the best we can.

 

[Stc95]

As for evidence, you might get some articles that suggest it is not true but the overwhelming majority in premier journals (i.e. nature) support global warming.

Now im not saying that Global Warming isnt true nor false. But just because everyone (or most everyone) says something doesnt mean its true. Almost all of the big scientist people think that we all came from a rock. Just because they all think that doesnt make it true. If all the scientists in the world, EVERY SINGLE ONE, thought that the sky was purple. Doesnt make it truth.

On a final note don't you think that is a pretty central outcome of God creating the world that we should look after it the best we can.

Yes we should try and take care of the gift God gave us. But he also intended for the Earth to be inhabbited.
“He formed it [Earth] to be inhabited...” (Is. 45:18)

 

[ppar3566]

Now im not saying that Global Warming isnt true nor false. But just because everyone (or most everyone) says something doesnt mean its true. Almost all of the big scientist people think that we all came from a rock. Just because they all think that doesnt make it true. If all the scientists in the world, EVERY SINGLE ONE, thought that the sky was purple. Doesnt make it truth.

Yes we should try and take care of the gift God gave us. But he also intended for the Earth to be inhabbited.
“He formed it [Earth] to be inhabited...” (Is. 45:18)

Ok I 100% agree that it is possible that even though most scientists agree the global climate is changing at an unnatural rate they could be wrong. But my question is then does that mean we completely ignore this consensus of opinion from highly intelligent people who have spent a good part of there life studying these very issues. If we ignore the opinions of experts on issues that the bible does not directly address because they might be wrong, how do we go about making decisions about important areas in our life?

As an organisational psychologist, people come to me to help them make important decisions about there companies that can literally cost millions of dollars. They come to me not because they expect me to make the 100% right decision but because I know more about the area than they do. I could be wrong but I think it is still appropriate from them to base there decision on the knowledge of an expert rather than what they, as lay people, might think is a good idea. Surely the same applies to climate change. Sure the experts could be wrong but they certainly know more about it than I do and the majority of prominent ones all agree climate change is happening. That is good enough for me to start living my life in light of that.

 

[vibrokatana]

{wall of text}

It's not that we don't think of it as an issue but rather that we think people blow it out of proportion and raise it to such a level to become almost warlike about it. The simple fact is that a lot of the junk floating out there being spouted back and forth is false. I think a economy that does less harm to the environment is a good thing, but change takes time. Measures have already been enacted and we just have to wait for them to pan out. Call me ignorant but the whole global warming thing is blown out of proportion and being taken to extremes by some people.

 

[ppar3566]

It's not that we don't think of it as an issue but rather that we think people blow it out of proportion and raise it to such a level to become almost warlike about it. The simple fact is that a lot of the junk floating out there being spouted back and forth is false. I think a economy that does less harm to the environment is a good thing, but change takes time. Measures have already been enacted and we just have to wait for them to pan out. Call me ignorant but the whole global warming thing is blown out of proportion and being taken to extremes by some people.

Yep I agree, though I think it is an issue we need much more action on and much more quickly (and yes the results of what we are now doing will take time).

 

[MaidMirawyn]

Not having Adobe on this computer is not helping, but I find it deeply hard to believe

It's true, though. The Tennessean is a pretty reliable source...

Offtopic, but MaidMirawyn, you live in the same city as I do

Dragon*Con... Can't you hear it calling?

I'm going to PM you. I would love to know if we're in the same area...so far, the only CGA members we have met are Dredd & Co. and Sherman. And we had to travel to Colorado to do it!

 

[Odale]

I'm in Marietta, and I'm not so sure about Dragon Con

ChickenSoup, sorry to sound so harsh, but when anyone can make a site and say what they want to say without having to back it up, I feel I have some right to be a little cautious. I should have scrolled all the way to the bottom, I did not, and I apologize for that.

That energy bill is about double what ours is, and by looking at the size of that house, it sounds about right, especially if they use it for an office as well.

 

[MaidMirawyn]

We've gone several times, and will be back this year!

 

[nattyg]

That energy bill is about double what ours is, and by looking at the size of that house, it sounds about right, especially if they use it for an office as well.

Not that I'd be one to come running to defend the guy, but if it's truly 9600 sq ft (maybe there are some super hidden rooms that aren't visible...'cause it doesn't look that big)...as stated in this article:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/28/politics/main2522844.shtml

then that *may* not be a bad bill and equates to an appropriate percentage increase of what our house costs to run.

Then again, I live in the desert and insist on keeping the house cooled to 75-78 (at max) while it's 110-120 outside. Given that the temperature extremes aren't that bad in that part of the country (I used to live in KY...I'm a bit familiar with them)...it could be a load of garbage.


Now if all troublemakingforumtrollinggnomes could please leave the building...

/signoff!

 

[ChickenSoup]

ChickenSoup, sorry to sound so harsh, but when anyone can make a site and say what they want to say without having to back it up, I feel I have some right to be a little cautious. I should have scrolled all the way to the bottom, I did not, and I apologize for that.

Well, I should have thought before I posted. I have a problem with that sometimes.

 

[Avesther]

Aside from your personal views on Al Gore, how does the average American or Canadian reducing their burden on the enviroment change the fact that polutions from China's and India's coal powered plants take a week on average to hit our shores and affect the local climate amongst other things? Especially when China and India whose economies are heavily reliant on burning coal, are not obligated to reduce their emissions or even purchase green credits (which I think is a bunch of bowhunk).

 

[ChickenSoup]

Aside from your personal views on Al Gore, how does the average American or Canadian reducing their burden on the enviroment change the fact that polutions from China's and India's coal powered plants take a week on average to hit our shores and affect the local climate amongst other things? Especially when China and India whose economies are heavily reliant on burning coal, are not obligated to reduce their emissions or even purchase green credits (which I think is a bunch of bowhunk).

As my last official post on this forum, for good this time, I hereby declare fearmongery.

"Ahh! HALPZ! TEH EMISHINZ BE ALL HITTIN ON MAH SHORZ!!"

What's bowhunk, their not having to buy green credits? Bah.



(great, wait till the mods get an eyeful of THIS post... >.<)

 

[Odale]

Aside from your personal views on Al Gore, how does the average American or Canadian reducing their burden on the enviroment change the fact that polutions from China's and India's coal powered plants take a week on average to hit our shores and affect the local climate amongst other things? Especially when China and India whose economies are heavily reliant on burning coal, are not obligated to reduce their emissions or even purchase green credits (which I think is a bunch of bowhunk).

I can't tell you to quit running around naked if I myself am doing it too. Totally seperate ballpark, but closely related.

You get the point.

 

[vibrokatana]

I can't tell you to quit running around naked if I myself am doing it too. Totally seperate ballpark, but closely related.

You get the point.

We can do without the information.

 

[Avesther]

I can't tell you to quit running around naked if I myself am doing it too. Totally seperate ballpark, but closely related.

You get the point.

Thats a rather broad generalization though. First, the USA and China are neck and neck for who is the biggest producer of greenhouse gases. But thats where the similarities end. China has over 3x the amount of people and their economies are decades if not centries behind the USA when it comes to efficiency of converting energy to products. If all effieciencies in energy usage are left unchecked, within 25 years, China will put more toxins into our ecology then all the industrialized nations put together.