Huge mistake with origins of Catholicism.

Atop, I do know the nature of God. He has revealed it throughout the Bible, and even a simple read-through of it shows it.

He is a loving God. He is a judging God. He is a just God.
 
And I agree with pop, it would depend on the situation -- in the situation Christ was in, no, I would not call the Father cruel. Christ accepted it, and you have to remember, since He WAS GOD, that's a divine dictation. If God says it, it goes.

Also, the Father and the Son both knew that in dying, they would save mankind from its sin.

I don't think killing millions of babies does that, sorry. There is no comparison.

Vanaze
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ Mar. 19 2004,5:25)]Could Jesus choose God? no, he was God. He lived a perfect life by showing us how to obey his rules, and therefore was worthy of heaven.
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This is somewhat of a philosophical/theological gray area though. What would be the point of including mention that Jesus was tempted for 40 days in the wilderness if there wasn't the chance that He could say, "I know the will of my Father in heaven, yet I am here going to choose to do MY will and turn this stone into a loaf of bread." Though it's a paradox, Jesus was fully God AND fully human. Verily, He was shown to be perfect by obeying God's rules. But the word obey implies choice.

Vanaze: I will take the opportunity to warn someone of the use of "blasphemy" when I feel someone is using it incorrectly. Despite your views of justice, the last time I took a peek at the Bible, I noticed a pattern: God can pretty much do whatever the heck He pleases, regardless of the precedents He's set in the Scriptures. God's switched up how He does things many times in Scripture. You can talk this topic blue in the face, but the utter fact needs to be realized and accepted that if God chooses to set the justice standard at "those who cognizantly choose Me will enter heaven", then so be it.

If you'd like to tell God what He can do, be my guest. I'd rather focus on what He's told me to do.
 
To say that God will change the Word again is blasphemous, sir. We're under the new convenent, and you had no right to tell me to watch how I was using the term blasphemous. What he said was indeed blasphemy, and what YOU are implying is edging on it.

Van
 
Vanaze, when did I say that God will change the Word again? When did I say anything about being under the New Covenant, or that we are definitely under the Old One making you a blasphemer?

Also, point out how I am edging on blasphemy. If saying that God is all-knowing and all-powerful and that He can do what He wishes is blasphemy, then by all regards, ship me off to Athiest Island.
 
What you're implying is that God doesn't even follow His own rules and dictations? Beware the line you tread, it's thin. That's like saying the Law has no relevence.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]God's switched up how He does things many times in Scripture.
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Van
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This is somewhat of a philosophical/theological gray area though.  What would be the point of including mention that Jesus was tempted for 40 days in the wilderness if there wasn't the chance that He could say, "I know the will of my Father in heaven, yet I am here going to choose to do MY will and turn this stone into a loaf of bread."  Though it's a paradox, Jesus was fully God AND fully human.  Verily, He was shown to be perfect by obeying God's rules.  But the word obey implies choice.
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yeah your right, it is a grey area. Thats just been my take on it. I think disobey implies choice. If someone is born and raised in a closed room, and given food through a hole in the wall 3x a day; never steps outside of it, never has any human interaction (given they don't go crazy) have they the chance to do wrong, or will they do wrong? They never chose God, but they never chose anything. Like you said, its a philosophical area...
 
Van: By "switching up things" I'm implying the fact that God decreed certain things in Scripture and then was shown to change his mind concerning certain things. That isn't blasphemy, it's in the Bible. (Though I am NOT an open theist, let me establish). I'm not saying that in one place He dictates "Thou shalt not murder" and in another place decides "Thou shalt murder till thine heart is content." Does that make sense? I can give scripture portions to back that up if you wish (e.g., divorce, destruction of peoples, etc.)

Master, you do make a valid point.

A good thing to do in any argument, I've learned, is follow the path of the argument back to the first point where we disagree. In the case of babies going to hell, the path backwards really takes us to our theory on original sin, if you think about it. A baby is born with original sin, whether he likes it or not, and it is God's decree that the wages of sin are death. So, though the baby had no time to choose God, he is still full of sin, and God's just law decrees that that leads to some place that isn't heaven...

Whether God's love comes into it to save the baby from hell, I don't know. To imply that the baby is not condemned upon birth is just plain heresy (*cough* Pelagius *cough*). Paul talks about that all the time.

But that's a whooooooole 'nother thread. We've really gotten off-topic it seems.
 
umm God does not change he is the Same yesterday today and tomarrow ( forget the exact scripture here) but the way he administers His judgement and Love has changed from the Old covanent to the new.


VAN OUT OF CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!! JEEZ

Gen 18:25 is not talking about babies, infact it is Sodom/Gomorah.... It is God talking to Abraham about sparing a City of sinners, if Abraham can find even 10 righteous men there.

Van you want to call people Blashemous but yet you misquote and misrepresent the very Word of God.... who is walking the line. i am not making an accusation but do watch your context that you quote your scriptures. What is worse the man who misquotes the Bible or the man who doesnt know what it says.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tromos @ Mar. 08 2004,8:42)]4) We also have some other Christ-oriented churches that are not normally considered "Christian" by the 3 groups above.  Among these would be the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Mormons, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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I don't think anyone else picked up on this.I don't know about the seventh day adventists, but Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses are not Christians. A Christian believes that Jesus the Christ was God incarnate.A Christian is one who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus. A Christian is one who believes that Jesus took our sin upon himself, indeed became sin, died on the cross as penalty for that sin, and rose again to prove that His sacrifice was acceptable to God. When the Holy Sprit draws us to believe and trust Jesus as Savior, His righteosness is put upon us. We have no righteousness of our own.

The Mormons and JW's do not believe that Jesus is God.The Mormons teach  that we can all become gods.The JW's teach that Jesus was Michael the archangel. The JW's don't believe in Hell. No one spoke more about Hell than Jesus.
 
*lol* Y'know what?

I give up on this thread.

You people forget that the Word of God is Living and in our lives.

The word speaks, all the time, to anyone who reads it.

Go read that Word and tell me if you think that God would condemn a baby who couldn't survive a day without their parents watching over them....Tell me if that child is going to hell.

I've lost a brother, I've lost five cousins, and I refuse to believe that the God who saved my soul from an eternal hell sent them to that place.

I refuse to believe that I will never meet my brother, I refuse to believe that I will never meet my unborn cousins, and I will never believe that I won't see those babies who died after birth.

My God is a God of understanding and justice, full of kindness and longsuffering.

I would love to have you stand before my aunt and uncle and tell them that their five children are burning in the depths of hell and will share that place with the demons. I doubt you could stand to live with yourself.

Goodbye, I doubt I'll be posting for a long time, because you all have shown little love to those unborn children.
 
No, not posting is not me being stubborn or running off miffed, I just sincerely doubt anything I say will make you understand the pain I feel when I hear you tell me a baby, my brother is in hell right now. It's pointless to continue, the damage has been done, and I hope God will bring His holy light to your eyes.

Good bye.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
I don't think anyone else picked up on this.I don't know about the seventh day adventists, but Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses are not Christians.
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I'm a Seventh Day Adventist, and I can tell you the only difference between us and the other denoms ( Besides JW and Mormons ) are that MOST of us follow much of the Jewish Law, and that we believe in this prophet Ellen White. Don't ask, it's hard to explain.
Vanaze, I'm sorry that you've been offended. I started this whole debate about it, and I'm sorry that we offended you.
 
Van if you read this, i would tell your aunt and uncle the exact same thing i have told you.

There is no Biblical proof for babies going to heaven. We do though serve a loving and Just God. Know that His will is perfect, even if we do not understand.
 
given Jesus' comments on childrean that you must be like them to get ito heaven (innocent) and David's words to his dead son I'd say there's a good chance that young kids and babies are covered under God's grace
 
Wow, this thread really turned into something ugly.

Vanaze, go ahead and believe what you believe. God will hold you accountable based on His Word and what you believe to be right and wrong. Regardless of whether babies go to heaven or hell, I think your conviction to stand by God as you see Him will "be accounted to you as righteousness", in the words of Genesis
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However, I don't think it's fair to say that Lion and Tasty and Master will be judged according to your views on God. Let God make the judgements about blasphemy and the loss of salvation. Frankly I don't think that you, any more than anyone else here, are qualified.

And, since my comments about Seventh-Day Adventists (who do consider themselves Christians), Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses have re-surfaced, and since Jango brought up his denominational affiliations, I'd like to ask this. Jango, was Jesus God? If you're not sure, ask your pastor (or whatever you call him). I just want to know.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]given Jesus' comments on childrean that you must be like them to get ito heaven (innocent)
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He meant as in their faith ( Kids believe just about whatever they are told with great faith. ), and their humility.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Jango, was Jesus God? If you're not sure, ask your pastor (or whatever you call him). I just want to know.
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I can answer that. Jesus is God in a human body.
 
Van: If all your statements are true about babies going to heaven, then Paul must be completely wrong on original sin.

CCGR: I checked out some stuff on the passage you're referring to...I'm not totally straight on what David believed, but one case that can be made against his kid going to heaven is based on the concept of Sheol; that David was simply praying that his child's journey to Sheol be safe, so that when David died and went to Sheol he'd find the kid. But that's just one case you could make.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Van: If all your statements are true about babies going to heaven, then Paul must be completely wrong on original sin.
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Yes, and if all the Bible was written by the inspiration of God..
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]that David was simply praying that his child's journey to Sheol be safe, so that when David died and went to Sheol he'd find the kid. But that's just one case you could make.
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Hmm, I thought David would go to Heaven.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.' -Acts 13:21
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Sure, he did sin, but he wasn't God.
 
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