Huge mistake with origins of Catholicism.

[4t0p]

Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ Feb. 28 2004,8:10)]I was just wondering about what they base prayer to Mary and all the saints on? And who are these saints? and what do they do? but I don't think there are any catholics around...

Praying TO Mary or the Saints is one of the most confused things about Catholicism.  You also have to take into account which generation of Catholics you are dealing with (Pre/Post Vatican II).

Everyone who is in Heaven is considered a saint, a Saint, however, is someone who was added to the cannon that is kept in Rome and has gone through a process called canonization after which it is deemed that said person is most likely in Heaven. The process of canonization involves several steps, amongst which are a certain number of miracles and other things which are looked at in a persons life.

Catholics pray with the Saints and ask for their guidance and help b/c they are known to be in Heaven, also our relationship with God the Father is different, this is why we have such things as Confession.

Board members get lost in debates involving Protestantism vs Catholicism when one side or the other forgets that we are all Brothers in Christ.  So let's try to remember that

 

[Jango]

Well, not every Catholic saint is in Heaven. The only humans we know to be in Heaven are Moses ( His soul was taken up after he died. ), and Elija. ( There may be more, but these are the only ones I know of. ) According to the Bible and Protestant faith, every Christian is a saint. Everyone.

 

[4t0p]

This is where the Prot vs Cath thread starts, you asked for an explanation I give you one, and you correct my faith

plz Open your mind I am to your faith =o

 

[Eon]

Kids, who are often far more open to spirituality than adults, and often see through the doubletalk and hidden agenda's, often pray to dead parents in heaven. This is no different than praying to saints for guidance and protection.

 

[Master~Plan]

this is just leading into speculation on where we go right after we die. The thing is no one knows. thanks for your input 4top

 

[TastyWheat]

Quote[/b] (Jango @ Feb. 29 2004,5:55)]From what I read, the Sacrements are REQUIRED, while they are NOT in Protestantism.

True, the two sacraments recognized by the Protestant Church are not required. However, that shouldn't minimalize their role in Church history and their importance to our faith.

As far as the Catholic Sacraments being required, that's simply not true. The four more "common" sacraments (baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, and penance) are practiced ordinarily by most Catholics. Key word: most. Another is anointing the sick; you can't really experience this sacrament unless you are either a priest or you're seriously sick. The last two are mutually exclusive: holy orders and marriage. You can't be a priest and be married (although I know there are circumstances where this has happened; please don't let that hang you up).

So, I know its a little hair-splitting, but not all seven sacraments are "required" by the Catholic Church.

4top's comment on pre/post-Vatican II was well stated; they changed a lot of emphases on the sacraments with Vatican II as well (one example being anointing the sick, which became more a means to strengthen/heal someone's body and soul versus removing someone's sin right before they die).

 

[Jango]

Sorry 4top, didn't mean to offend you.

 

[Tromos]

OK, I'll try to bring my not-so-unique perspective to this since maybe I have a more balanced opinion. I was raised Roman Catholic and went to Catholic grade school and high school. After 2 years at a Catholic college (Notre Dame), I transferred to a Lutheran college (Concordia) and was soon after confirmed Lutheran.

So, from a 30-plus year lifetime of knowledge from both sides, I'd like to clear up a few things.

1) Yes, Martin Luther was a Catholic. There was nothing else for him to be in 1517. He was also an Augustinian monk (research St. Augustine for background on that order). The Roman Catholic church in the early 16th century was not exactly the pinnacle of moral achievement. During most of the 15th century, the papal seat (the Pope) was a dynasty handed from father to son down through the very wealthy Italian Medici family. Before you get your underwear in a bunch on this, understand that celibacy has not always been a requirement of Catholic clergy, and it was not at that time. However, that didn't diminish the corruption in Rome. The Roman Catholic church had initiated a fund-raising practice called "indulgences." This was accomplished by preaching to the masses that after death we all went to a hell-like place called Purgatory to pay any unpaid price for our sins. After our cleansing trip through Purgatory, we got to go to heaven. The church offered the people the option of paying extra money to the church to buy their loved ones through Purgatory faster. I know this sounds crazy, but it's accurate. More than anything else, this is what got Martin Luther so upset. So, in 1517, Luther wrote up 95 things he thought that the church in Rome needed to do to again become the Christ-focused organization it was supposed to be and nailed them to the door of the cathedral in Wittenburg, Germany. The majority of these things had to do with the bad examples the church heirarchy in Rome was setting with their immoral actions, the pope running his own private "Get-Out-Of-Hell-And-Purgatory Free" racket, and with the disgusting exploitation of the souls of the dead to line the coffers of the church. There were no statements about salvation through faith. Luther never intended, or desired, to split the church. He was deeply committed to the church and to the Pope as the holder of the "keys" of the church (the "office of the keys" being the authority granted to Peter to bind or loose on earth and thus bind or loose in heaven (Matt 18:18, John 20:23) and passed down to each leader of the church thereafter). I doubt you could imagine Luther's horror at being excommunicated.

2) Regardless of what Luther intended, his courage lit the fire that was already fueled and waiting amongst so many others. Probably primary among these others was John Calvin. Calvin most definitely liked the idea of a church not affiliated with the pope in Rome and went down a whole other path. If there are any Calvinists in our midst, perhaps you could shine more light on this.

3) And so, we have, in fact, really 3 divisions to the worldwide Christian church. We have the descendants of the Roman Catholic church which somewhere along the way cleaned up its act (although they do still support the concept of Purgatory, even post-Vat2). Martin Luther would not be nearly so outraged now as he was then. We have the non-Reformed Protestants, to my knowledge primarily made up of the Lutherans and the Baptists. And we have the Reformed church, which includes the Calvinists and the Presbyterians and the Church of Christ, and the Methodists, and a number of others.

4) We also have some other Christ-oriented churches that are not normally considered "Christian" by the 3 groups above. Among these would be the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Mormons, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

*deep breath*

5) Ok, now that we have some significant Reformation history out of the way, Tasty's pretty much nailed the sacrament issue. Although I'm not sure how either baptism or the eucharist are optional since both were commanded by Jesus Himself. Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", not "He who believes and, optionally, is baptized will be saved." (Mark 16:16). Neither did Jesus say "Take, if you feel like it will help, this is my body" in Mark 14:22.

6) Catholics do pray to God, to Mary, and "with" the Saints. Please take note that prayer to is not the same as worshipping. Catholics only worship God, they "venerate" Mary, and they "worship with" the saints. There is a distinct difference between the 3. Catholics also believe that Mary was conceived and born without Original Sin. Read that closely. When you hear a Catholic refer to the "Immaculate Conception", they're not talking about the conception of Jesus, they're talking about the conception of Mary in her mother's womb. Catholics also believe that Mary lived without committing any sin throughout her life, never forsake her physical virginity, and did not die but was taken bodily into heaven much as Elijah was (known in Catholicism as "The Assumption").

7) I've said quite enough, but I did want to add a few more things about Martin Luther. As I mentioned previously, Luther didn't want to split the Catholic church, he just wanted them to clean up. Luther fully supported the existence of Purgatory and vehemently defended the institution of private confession as holy, just, and completely necessary. He firmly believed that the Pope in Rome was endowed by God with powers of grace beyond that of any other living person and that these powers should be used to "bind and loose." Over time, Luther got more used to being outside the church in Rome and, through various debates, expanded his theology well beyond its original scope. But you can read his Large Catechism if you want more detail. The good Lord knows I've gone on long enough.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]So, from a 30-plus year lifetime of knowledge from both sides, I'd like to clear up a few things.

alrite, finally someone who knows what thier talking about when it comes to catholicism

Quote[/b] ]6) Catholics do pray to God, to Mary, and "with" the Saints.  Please take note that prayer to is not the same as worshipping. Catholics only worship God, they "venerate" Mary, and they "worship with" the saints.  There is a distinct difference between the 3.  Catholics also believe that Mary was conceived and born without Original Sin.  Read that closely.  When you hear a Catholic refer to the "Immaculate Conception", they're not talking about the conception of Jesus, they're talking about the conception of Mary in her mother's womb.  Catholics also believe that Mary lived without committing any sin throughout her life, never forsake her physical virginity, and did not die but was taken bodily into heaven much as Elijah was (known in Catholicism as "The Assumption").

I understand prayer is not the same as worship, but who said mary can hear me when I pray? And if she can hear me, then what could she possible do to help me? Where does it say she is perfect? If she was perfect her whole life, then she didn't need Jesus?  There are many verses about how all have sinned (for example romans 3:10-18). wouldn't mary being perfect contradict these passages? please fill me in

 

[TastyWheat]

That's an excellent post, Tromos.

 

[Tromos]

If someone else wants to give the justification, I encourage them to do so. I need to head to work.

For your first question, M~P, a Google search on "pray to saints" or "pray to Mary" will get you some of the Biblical references used to defend that the saints in heaven (including Mary) do hear us and we are right in praying to ask for their intercession with God. If nothing turns up today, I'll try to post more about that here tonight.

For your second question, I'll have to defer. I knew that Catholics considered Mary conceived without sin, having preserved her physical virginity, and having been taken bodily into heaven. I also knew these things were defended as "Holy Tradition" instead of "Holy Scripture", meaning the Catholic church decreed this at some point. It wasn't until I was doing my research for that big post above that I found out about the no-sin thing. That deeply disturbs me as well since, as you stated, this means that Mary was saved by the Law through her own volition and did not need Jesus for her salvation. I don't recall Jesus saying "No one comes to the Father except through me, with the exception of my mom" in John 14:6. *shrug*

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ].  Although I'm not sure how either baptism or the eucharist are optional since both were commanded by Jesus Himself.  Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", not "He who believes and, optionally, is baptized will be saved." (Mark 16:16).

If Baptism is required, explain how the theif on the cross was saved. Nice post, btw.

*edit* Vanaze, I didn't see your post about the theif in the Baptizem topic until I posted this post. So don't think I stole your answer.

 

[Dr. Tek]

Let me put it this way. Jesus said, believe and be baptized. At baptism, according to various scriptures, it is then your sins are washed away and you receive the Holy Spirit, IF you believe first. Hmm, Jesus commanded it, your sins are washed away in it, and you are filled with the Holy Spirit then.... Baptism does not save you, your faith does, but if you truly do believe, you will trust and do all that Christ said.

 

[Jango]

The Holy Spirit comes into you when you ask Jesus into your heart.

 

[Dr. Tek]

It may help if you actually read the Bible. Go read Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-8, and 1st Peter 3:21. Unlike your "feel-good" statement, my point I made actually has scripture to back it up. A lot of denominations, both Catholics and Protestants, make compromises to Biblical truths to make Christianity more "acceptable" to people. When you look back thru history and compare the different denominations' doctrines to the Bible, not ONE denomination I have looked into has not had at least ONE of their doctrines stating something other then found in the Word of God.

 

[Master~Plan]

thanx tromos, I"ll read up on the praying for saints. I just never found anything biblical about it before.

um dr.tech and jango, you guys are in the wrong thread, I believe your looking for the "baptism-requirement for salvation?" thread...

 

[Eztral]

Thats a disturbing catholic thingy, if your child dies without beeing batized it goes to hell :\

I don't think that you won't go to heaven if you don't get baptized but I would assume that it would be the natural thing for any christian to do as a "visual" that you ut your old life behind you.

 

[Tromos]

Quote[/b] (Eztral @ Mar. 10 2004,6:08)]Thats a disturbing catholic thingy, if your child dies without beeing batized it goes to hell :\

Now you've wandered into what most Catholics call "limbo."

Here's some information on limbo from the Catholic perspective taken from http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/limbo/

Quote[/b] ]The existence of limbo for unbaptized infants is not part of divine revelation, but rather was and is an educated theological "guess." The term was coined by St. Augustine of Hippo and literally means "fringe." This came about because God has not chosen to reveal what happens to deceased unbaptized infants. We know that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation (John 3:5) because God revealed this. We also know that something called "baptism of desire" is possible. Since unbaptized infants seem incapable of any "desire" or act of their will, theologians have speculated throughout the ages about their destiny in this context St. Augustine thought that it would be an offense against God's justice to suppose He would allow such creatures to suffer any pain, but that rather God places such infants in a state of "natural," but not supernatural happiness for eternity. This he called "limbo." Other theologians say that God's "universal salvific will" (1 Timothy 2:4) includes unbaptized people who do not have the use of reason when they die and that they enjoy supernatural happiness by some means we do not now know. Catholics are free to believe or disbelieve in limbo. What happens to unbaptized people who do not have the use of reason and who die in that state is an open question. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, number 1261.

 

[CCGR]

when David lost is son from adultry he said that his son will not return to him but he will return to his son, that's reassuring for those who belive their young die and go to heaven instead of limbo or hell

 

[Jango]

Of course, why would God send children who were not old enough to comprehend sin and the choice to accept Jesus to Heaven or this "limbo"?