Huge mistake with origins of Catholicism.
- Thread starter Jango
- Start date
I just find it hard to believe that the twin babies my aunt had, then they died soon after....I find it really hard to believe that my God, loving and forgiving as He is, sent them burn and rot in Hell for sins they didn't commit, forever scarring their souls in damnation and misery. Forever, two babies suffer in a hell made for others, a hell made for those who had sinned, made for those who had done something wrong. Forgive me when I say this....But....
Tell me that to my face, and let's see what happens.
Vanaze
Tell me that to my face, and let's see what happens.
Vanaze
Sorry if that came across as threatening -- it was meant to come across as such, I will admit. If you wish to sit and insult a God who has forgiven the sins of killers and idolterers, the mistresses of kings, the prostitutes of men.....If you wish to insult Him by dictating that God will send a sinless child to hell......Go right ahead, give the wrong impression to every mother who has ever had a miscarriage, or to any mother who has ever had an abortion, or to any mother who has had someone attack them while they were pregnant, effectively killing that baby inside of them.
Go right ahead.
Van
Go right ahead.
Van
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
Van its not up to me to decide where the child goes. you can tell the mother that if you like, but the truth is there is no clear cut evidence for it.
and with your post about how can Just and loving God send a sinless baby to hell....
why would just and loving God let a baby die...
and with your post about how can Just and loving God send a sinless baby to hell....
why would just and loving God let a baby die...
CCGR
Member
many do take comfort when David lost his child resulting from adultry, David said that his son will not return to him but he will return to his son. Meaning that his son is in Heaven waiting for him.
You all have removed yourself from the passion God has given us. How you can sit there and "objectively" talk about a baby going to hell, I will never know. It kept me from sleeping last night.
Stop removing yourself from the love and passion bestowed upon us by the Lord, and look through the eyes He's given you, and think about the blasphemous things you've been saying. I think you'll find how upsetting they are.
Beware what you say, you never know when you might offend someone a great deal. You never know when a mother has lost a child, before or after birth.
In my case, I'm a brother who has lost siblings before they were born. I'm a cousin who never got to meet the three babies that my aunt miscarried, as well as the two who lived for a short amount of time.
I will never agree to the terms you have presented, Lion, and I will adamently reject that a loving God who created a helpless baby could condemn that baby's soul to an eternal hell from whence they will never leave.
It's just plain cruel.
Vanaze
Stop removing yourself from the love and passion bestowed upon us by the Lord, and look through the eyes He's given you, and think about the blasphemous things you've been saying. I think you'll find how upsetting they are.
Beware what you say, you never know when you might offend someone a great deal. You never know when a mother has lost a child, before or after birth.
In my case, I'm a brother who has lost siblings before they were born. I'm a cousin who never got to meet the three babies that my aunt miscarried, as well as the two who lived for a short amount of time.
I will never agree to the terms you have presented, Lion, and I will adamently reject that a loving God who created a helpless baby could condemn that baby's soul to an eternal hell from whence they will never leave.
It's just plain cruel.
Vanaze
Oh, and let me comment on your "Why would a loving God let a baby die" statement.
There's a young girl, she was sixteen. She was raped by some whacko. She became pregnant, and prayed to God that she not have to bear this challenge she'd be given.
She miscarried four months into the pregnancy. God answered this child's answer, realizing she was an honest, good hearted servant of His purpose.
God is just.
Vanaze
There's a young girl, she was sixteen. She was raped by some whacko. She became pregnant, and prayed to God that she not have to bear this challenge she'd be given.
She miscarried four months into the pregnancy. God answered this child's answer, realizing she was an honest, good hearted servant of His purpose.
God is just.
Vanaze
TastyWheat
New Member
Although I rest with my overall decision that Scripture does not say enough to me to choose one side or the other, my one thought still remains: hell was in fact created for the people who have not chosen God. This stands whether you are Calvinist (God predestined that you would not choose him) or Arminian (you simply refused His grace). So, that being the case, two questions must be decisively answered:
1. Are babies spared hell because they are completely unable to choose?
2. Are babies sent to hell because, regardless of the ability to choose, they have not chosen God?
I've no answer for either of those. Things sometimes aren't how humans want them to be; God's ways are not our own, despite the fact that we are created in His image. Simply making yourself believe that babies don't go to hell is not going to make it true. You must keep things in perspective: you had no chance to evangelize them, so their sins are not on your shoulders. In my mind, despite the emotions involved, that should be enough to cause you to relinquish power over the situation and walk away.
1. Are babies spared hell because they are completely unable to choose?
2. Are babies sent to hell because, regardless of the ability to choose, they have not chosen God?
I've no answer for either of those. Things sometimes aren't how humans want them to be; God's ways are not our own, despite the fact that we are created in His image. Simply making yourself believe that babies don't go to hell is not going to make it true. You must keep things in perspective: you had no chance to evangelize them, so their sins are not on your shoulders. In my mind, despite the emotions involved, that should be enough to cause you to relinquish power over the situation and walk away.
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
This is alot more personal for me van.
My Fathers family is catholic ( i know there are catholics here) and at one point in time a Minister mind you told my father, Well your mother is going to hell because she is not a Christian.... How godly is that?
My point is it is not up to man to make the decision, and if you do not like it tough its Gods choice and His alone, accept it or reject it, that is up to you.
How do i sleep at night? i sleep at night knowning that no matter what happens God's will, will happen, and that His judgement is perfect and no matter what in the end, it doesnt matter because i know that He loves us, and i can never comprehend His love.
My Fathers family is catholic ( i know there are catholics here) and at one point in time a Minister mind you told my father, Well your mother is going to hell because she is not a Christian.... How godly is that?
My point is it is not up to man to make the decision, and if you do not like it tough its Gods choice and His alone, accept it or reject it, that is up to you.
How do i sleep at night? i sleep at night knowning that no matter what happens God's will, will happen, and that His judgement is perfect and no matter what in the end, it doesnt matter because i know that He loves us, and i can never comprehend His love.
Master~Plan
New Member
for those who don't choose God, or disobey God?[b said:
Lion, once again, I'll repeat. You've removed yourself from the glorious restoring, forgiving power of our God.
Stop trying to look at things objectively, if this is truly personal to you. Get back to your roots of passion, your superfluous unbound want to show your God's love.
Stop trying to pass God off as simply a God of judgement, because that is simply all it appears you're doing, not trying to show the "true nature" of God.
He's a forgiving God, willing to do whatever it takes to get someone to heaven.
YOU, sir, will be held accountable for spreading blasphemous doctrine and thoughts such as that about, I dare say. I refuse to believe my God would send a baby to hell, I simply refuse.
And I'm sorry if you don't like it, "tough".
I've not showed you any disrespect and I wish you would do the same for me.
I have high regard for you, Lion, you just seem to be picking a sore topic to take the side you're taking on.
I will stand firm and stubbornly by what I have said, I have no regrets, only that you would retract your statement of it's not "...my place to say." Yes, it is. According to the Word of our God, we have the authority to say so. Excercise that authority.
Vanaze
Stop trying to look at things objectively, if this is truly personal to you. Get back to your roots of passion, your superfluous unbound want to show your God's love.
Stop trying to pass God off as simply a God of judgement, because that is simply all it appears you're doing, not trying to show the "true nature" of God.
He's a forgiving God, willing to do whatever it takes to get someone to heaven.
YOU, sir, will be held accountable for spreading blasphemous doctrine and thoughts such as that about, I dare say. I refuse to believe my God would send a baby to hell, I simply refuse.
And I'm sorry if you don't like it, "tough".
I've not showed you any disrespect and I wish you would do the same for me.
I have high regard for you, Lion, you just seem to be picking a sore topic to take the side you're taking on.
I will stand firm and stubbornly by what I have said, I have no regrets, only that you would retract your statement of it's not "...my place to say." Yes, it is. According to the Word of our God, we have the authority to say so. Excercise that authority.
Vanaze
TastyWheat
New Member
If you disobey God aren't you saying "I choose not to do what He's commanded me to do"?[b said:
TastyWheat
New Member
First, Vanaze, Lion's previous comments are not blasphemy. The fact that God is a righteous judge, yet one who judges as he sees fit, is not blasphemy. Be very careful how you throw that word around.
Let's look at this situation another way. Babies are incapable of logical thought, yes? I think we can agree on that. Yet they do have souls, most think, since the potential for rational thought is there. So here's the debacle: a baby gets sent to hell, feels pain for eternity, but only in the regard that it is a living organism with pain receptors. On the other hand: a baby goes to heaven. In heaven our purpose and longing is praise of God. Is a baby capable of that? No. Is God capable of "zapping" the baby into the realized human adult? Certainly. But we don't know what happens.
Don't think I'm demoting the value of human life. Yet what position is there for an infant in either of these realms?
Let's look at this situation another way. Babies are incapable of logical thought, yes? I think we can agree on that. Yet they do have souls, most think, since the potential for rational thought is there. So here's the debacle: a baby gets sent to hell, feels pain for eternity, but only in the regard that it is a living organism with pain receptors. On the other hand: a baby goes to heaven. In heaven our purpose and longing is praise of God. Is a baby capable of that? No. Is God capable of "zapping" the baby into the realized human adult? Certainly. But we don't know what happens.
Don't think I'm demoting the value of human life. Yet what position is there for an infant in either of these realms?
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
Van how am i being blashomous by simple stating what the Bible says....
Yes God is a loving God
He is a Righteous Judge
He Judges by His own set of rules because His ways are higher than ours.
God never onces clearly states yes or no on this subject. as a matter of fact i am in no way trying to push my view, to me this is not something worth fighting/ getting dogmatic over. If you want to believe that Babies go to heaven. Fine, if the guy next to you wants to believe they go to Hell fine, both are in the right, because the Bible does not give a clear yes or no.
Van something that is just in ME personally is to play the devils advocate on many an occassion, Honestly this is not a topic i think much of, the only reason why i really have posted is to counter point you, and maybe just challenge you to go deeper into The Word.
So i do apoligize if i have offended you in anyway.
Yes God is a loving God
He is a Righteous Judge
He Judges by His own set of rules because His ways are higher than ours.
God never onces clearly states yes or no on this subject. as a matter of fact i am in no way trying to push my view, to me this is not something worth fighting/ getting dogmatic over. If you want to believe that Babies go to heaven. Fine, if the guy next to you wants to believe they go to Hell fine, both are in the right, because the Bible does not give a clear yes or no.
Van something that is just in ME personally is to play the devils advocate on many an occassion, Honestly this is not a topic i think much of, the only reason why i really have posted is to counter point you, and maybe just challenge you to go deeper into The Word.
So i do apoligize if i have offended you in anyway.
Tasty - First, yes, he, according to MY Bible, was being blasphemous, you needn't warn me of how to use the word. Whether he was playing the "Devil's advocate" is irrelevent.
He basically stated that God would send an innocent being to hell. That is blasphemous, according to the Word, because that would make him unjust.
You also forget a soul doesn't age like a human does. Do you think we'll have these particular carnal bodies when Christ comes back? No. We will be made perfect. That means anything we didn't know we will know. Babies don't know a lot. Put two and two together.
I still stand firmly, and for you to say that the Bible gives no absolute on that is not a good thing to go passing around, if you're worried about the way Scripture is being used.
Van
He basically stated that God would send an innocent being to hell. That is blasphemous, according to the Word, because that would make him unjust.
You also forget a soul doesn't age like a human does. Do you think we'll have these particular carnal bodies when Christ comes back? No. We will be made perfect. That means anything we didn't know we will know. Babies don't know a lot. Put two and two together.
I still stand firmly, and for you to say that the Bible gives no absolute on that is not a good thing to go passing around, if you're worried about the way Scripture is being used.
Van
Genesis 18:25-- That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right.
You have to bring the nature of God into this, guys. The nature of God is justice, patience, and love.
If I were to tell you that one man, with the power to stop it, let millions upon millions of babies die, what would you say?
You'd call him cruel and unjust.
You figure it out.
You have to bring the nature of God into this, guys. The nature of God is justice, patience, and love.
If I were to tell you that one man, with the power to stop it, let millions upon millions of babies die, what would you say?
You'd call him cruel and unjust.
You figure it out.
G
Guest
Guest
If I were to tell you that one man, with the power to stop it, let his only son die a horrible, painful death, what would you say?
You'd call him cruel and unjust.
You figure it out.
You'd call him cruel and unjust.
You figure it out.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Depending on the situation no I would not.[b said:
This would assume that you know the nature of God, a nature which has changed even throughout the Bible. I'm still unsure as to how offering up Bible quotes as proofs works if you're simply going to disregard the quotes as soon as they mean something you don't want to believe (Babies possibly going to Hell). This seems to be pushing into a new thread subject though.[b said:
Master~Plan
New Member
Could Jesus choose God? no, he was God. He lived a perfect life by showing us how to obey his rules, and therefore was worthy of heaven. If I lived a perfect life, would I be worthy of heaven without God? I would argue yes. It says "no man comes unto the Father but through me", but thats because God knows no one has been perfect, or will be. However hypothetically if someone was perfect, they would be worthy of heaven without God. Thats why I asked: "obey God, or choose God?" I think hell is for those who disobey.[b said: