Do you believe that humans are evil?

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (The Penguin Slayer @ Nov. 11 2004,7:11)]You seem to think God caused Adam and Eve to sin, as if he were sitting above and controling Adam and Eve. First of all enviroment doesn't cause man to sin. The Bible clearly states that God walked with Adam and Eve in the Gardon of Eden. It also states that he had to turn his back on his Son, because his son took the sins of the worlds upon himself. Now if God must turn his back on sin, that means the Garden of Eden must have been perfect for him to be in it. Perfect despite the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. Eve choose to give in to the temptation, as well did Adam. It isn't God that made man sin, man choose to. (redundant? yes, I am emphasizing my point) Second, when God created Lucifer the Archangel, he created him as a perfect entity. Lucifer choose to turn against God. God knew that Lucifer would rebel against God, but God gave Lucifer and Man free will. God doesn't want us to sin, but he allows us to choose, knowing that many will chose to, otherwise we would have no free will. Also, man chooses his enviroment. America has taken God out of schools and other such acts, and when you look around, what do you see, pervertedness, fornication, adultry, murder, idolitry. Man chose to sin.

First, in your post you used the name Lucifer four times. That's FOUR TIMES MORE than it appears in the Bible. Lucifer is NOT Satan. That's a common Christian misconception.

Second, God HAS to be able to exist in the presence of evil. If He can't, then He is not omnipotent, therefore He can't be God. Your assumption that the Garden of Eden was perfect can't rest on yor assertation that God can only exist in perfection. Also, you said it was PERFECT...and then comes the BUT...perfect despite the existence of the Tree of Knowledge. Take a step back and look at your own contradictions.

You put WAY too much stock in Free Will. If you put an alcoholic on the verge of withdrawl in a amall, locked room with a bottle of scotch, what do you THINK he's going to do? Sure, he has free will, but the odds are stacked against him. Same thing with the Garden of Eden. God put EVERYTHING in motion to make sure that Man would fall. God WANTED Man to fall. To say otherwise calls into question His omnimax status. God knew beforehand that Man would fall and did absolutely nothing to prevent it. Therefore, God CONDONED Man's fall. Couple that with precognition and omniscience and you can easily assert that God WANTED Man to fall.

You claim that since America has taken God out of schools that it has fallen into depravity. That is completely laughable. Look at the state of the world when God was an active participant in it. It was SO bad He wanted to destroy the whole thing, remember? I daresay we are MUCH better off without God. Pervertedness, fornication, adultry, murder, idolitry, et al. They were in far greater abundance with God in the mix than they are now.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

then what is lucifer?


-u should become a bible scholar! (but not a spiritual advisor...)

 

[Genesis1315]

Quote[/b] ]First, in your post you used the name Lucifer four times. That's FOUR TIMES MORE than it appears in the Bible. Lucifer is NOT Satan. That's a common Christian misconception.

Actually, according to the KJV Bible, Lucifer is mentioned once in Isaiah 14. The name of satan is derived from the hebrew "ha satan" or 'the adversary', which is what Lucifer is.

Quote[/b] ]God WANTED Man to fall.

God did not want man to fall, He wanted man to freely choose Him.

Quote[/b] ]Look at the state of the world when God was an active participant in it. It was SO bad He wanted to destroy the whole thing, remember? I daresay we are MUCH better off without God.

The reason that the world was in such a bad state was because of the fall. He did destroy the whole world (Ref: Gen 6:13).

Thank you for this comment though, I think it has led to a new thread.

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Actually, according to the KJV Bible, Lucifer is mentioned once in Isaiah 14. The name of satan is derived from the hebrew "ha satan" or 'the adversary', which is what Lucifer is.

As I said, that is the ONLY appearance of the name Lucifer. It should be noted that it doesn't appear in the ancient texts either, but was added from the Latin Vulgate. The verses in Isa 14 refer to the King of BABYLON, not Satan.

From religioustolerance.org:

Isaiah 14:12-24 is interpreted by some as referring to Satan by the name "helel" in Hebrew. This is often translated as "Lucifer" or "Morning Star." The passage describes how he had fallen from heaven, was thrown to earth, expressed a desire to sit "on the mountains where the Gods assemble", wished to be like God, and had attacked many cities, leaving them in ruins. At first glance, this looks like a description of some of the activities of Satan. However, verse 4 clearly states that the passage refers to the King of Babylon, not to Satan. Isaiah was simply showing "sarcastic contempt for the mighty Babylonian monarch that had recently fallen, vanished as does [the morning star] Venus from the daytime sky."

Quote[/b] ]God did not want man to fall, He wanted man to freely choose Him.

Free Will has nothing to do with this argument. God set plans in motion knowing their outcome before their creation. God knew Man would fall, therefore God created the Garden of Eden KNOWING it would make Man fall. Therefore, He condoned it. God expected Man to fall. If God didn't INTEND for Man to fall, then He would have created things different. Since He did not, it is only logical that God WANTED Man to fall.

Quote[/b] ]
The reason that the world was in such a bad state was because of the fall. He did destroy the whole world (Ref: Gen 6:13).

And WHY did He destroy the world? WHAT made God grevious? Aren't those exact same things present in the world today? Doesn't look like God did a very good job wiping all the evil out that He knew would be there before the universe was created.

Christians are quick to jump all over nontheists who attempt to limit the power of God, but they, in turn, are guilty of the same thing. Don't forget about the omni abilities of God. God KNEW things would happen a certain way. By ALLOWING them to happen, it means God WANTED them to happen that way.

 

[Genesis1315]

I don't think so. What God wanted to happen and what he knew would happen are 2 different things. It is God's justice that allowed things to happen as they did.

 

[Marcylene]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Nov. 13 2004,2:54)]

Quote[/b] ]First, in your post you used the name Lucifer four times. That's FOUR TIMES MORE than it appears in the Bible. Lucifer is NOT Satan. That's a common Christian misconception.

Quote[/b] ]As I said, that is the ONLY appearance of the name Lucifer.

I am feeling very dizzy!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Genesis1315 @ Nov. 13 2004,2:41)]I don't think so. What God wanted to happen and what he knew would happen are 2 different things. It is God's justice that allowed things to happen as they did.

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand how you can separate the two.

And what part does God's justice play in all this?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Nov. 13 2004,2:57)]

Quote[/b] ]First, in your post you used the name Lucifer four times. That's FOUR TIMES MORE than it appears in the Bible. Lucifer is NOT Satan. That's a common Christian misconception.

Quote[/b] ]As I said, that is the ONLY appearance of the name Lucifer.

I am feeling very dizzy!

Just take a deeeeep breath.

Want me to draw you a picture?

 

[Marcylene]

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^ *ahem* Some humans are very, very evil!  

 

[Dark Virtue]

Yes, that's my point. SOME humans are. Not ALL humans. Nor are humans INHERANTLY evil.

And stop calling me EVIL!

I'm interested in why you thought my previous post made you dizzy.

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

Every man has once in his life time save for Jesus, who was more than a man, has sinned. Give me proof otherwise, and I will accept your reasonings

 

[Dark Virtue]

I've already said that man sins. I'm pretty sure I've said so more than once.

Sinning, however, doesn't make one INHERANTLY evil. THAT is the point I've been trying to make.

Are there evil human beings? Yes. Does that minority mean that humanity, as a whole is evil? Absolutely not.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

We ALL know your point. Humanity is evil, becaues EVERY man HAS sinned whether he or she wanted to or not. and i am pretty sure at LEAST 80% of the population does NOT want to be bad... so i think we have all made our points here...

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

Because Adam sinned, and his sons sinned and their sons etc, there is sin INHERITED from our ancestors, because every man sins. When a man is an alchoholic, it is probable his son will struggle with alcohol if not be a drunkard. Just like genes, sinful traits are passed down, thus because we INHERIT these sins we are INHERANTLY sinful. Evil like Hitler, no, but sinful yes.

 

[Dark Virtue]

So you're saying that sin is a GENETIC DISEASE?

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

It is a attitude of the heart, that rebels against the creator of the Universe, that is spiritual not genetic. If you want to argu, once again, nothing in someones genes will tell you they struggle with porno, sodomy or other such things. however, it is INHERITED from the father regardless.

 

[Dark Virtue]

How the heck is it INHERITED if it's not genetic?

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

Spiritually I thought I just said that

 

[Jim]

Assuming "inherently evil" means we are born evil, are evil and our base intentions and desires are evil, why is it that the majority of mankind does good? Why do people make it their goal to assist others? If we were inherently evil, wouldn't we only be good for a reward?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Good point Jim.

Penguin, you can't just slap REGARDLESS into your argument and expect it to make it truthful. How can you honestly say that sin is a transmissible, gentic, spiritual disease? You have absolutely NO proof of that.

Our moral fiber is a product of our environment, not our genetic disposition or some hidden spiritual dna.