Do you believe that humans are evil?

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Weazel @ Nov. 09 2004,7:42)]

Quote[/b] ]You did say humans want to be good all the time, and that most people think that way. I just don't see it. I know I lie, cheat, covet, and do commit whatever other sins you want to throw at me far too often to ever be considered "good".

You're convoluting the topic. Yes, I understand that we all fall short of the mark, we all sin, I'm not saying we don't. I'm saying that we WANT to be good, it's something we strive for. There's a difference between WANTING to be good and messing up occassionally, and WANTING to be evil and committing horrible acts on purpose. Do you lie, cheat, covet, etc because you WANT to? Or do you do those things IN SPITE of wanting to be good?

Quote[/b] ]But seeing how homosexuality, premarital sex, profanity, and pornography among other things are all being accepted into our culture, it's not hard to see why people think humans are "good".

These things have been a part of society FOREVER, it's not something new. Look at the Greeks and Romans, they condoned plenty of things that we would never think of today.

Quote[/b] ]I agree, surely he would. And that he did. It is by the Serpent's deception that it all happened. Did not God warn them that they would die from eating from the tree? And didn't Satan trick them by saying they wouldn't die? The message was loud and clear. Man just chose the wrong one.

There's only one person to blame for all of that: God.

God created the serpent knowing full well it would deceive Adam and Eve. God planted the tree in the garden knowing full well they would eat of it. The serpent (there's no evidence to show it was Satan-different topic for another day) lied? Let's take a look.

God said, "Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The serpent said, "Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Adam and Eve ate the fruit, their eyes were opened and they knew good and evil. Did they die IN THAT DAY? Nope, they sure didn't did they? Adam lived like 900 years.

So who was telling fibs in the garden of eden?

Quote[/b] ]No, man put himself into that plight. Adam and Eve were told the consequences and still disobeyed. They recieved their just punishment.

WRONG. Yes, man committed the sin, but GOD was the one that created the plight and made man fall. God did EVERYTHING to make sure that man fell. God wanted man to fall. If He didn't, He would have made His creation differently. Remember, you're dealing with a being that supposedly has omniscient and omnipotence. God KNEW what was going to happen before it happened, yet He did NOTHING to prevent it. Instead, He put everything in motion to CAUSE it to happen.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

so what did you expect? him to create a perfect world with NO satan? i feel that you are right about men WANTING to be good. no duh. think about the court room scenario again. when you die? DV, the truth, currently, you are going to hell. to be blunt, you are unless you can find someone else to talk to christianity. talking to you online is not gonna do much by itself. anyway, back to the courtroom thing. the ONLY way we can be good according to THE JUDGE is by having a good lawyer/immortal bullet vest. That is Jesus.

think about your idea that god created the fault. so you expected God to create a perfect world no possible temptations so we could be with him without sinning. then what would the purpose of giving us a free will? huh? it's like my parents, putting a foot carpet over the car carpet. kinda pointless. doesn't do much.

 

[Jim]

Quote[/b] ]so what did you expect? him to create a perfect world with NO satan?

So God created and engineered a 'risk factor?' Why? Why bother at all? For some kind of amusement?

Quote[/b] ]DV, the truth, currently, you are going to hell. to be blunt, you are unless you can find someone else to talk to christianity.

Nothing new there. According to Judaism and the Muslim faith, same thing really. Think about it: Going to hell for not getting the particulars of your faith straight. It's quite tiresome really.

Quote[/b] ]think about your idea that god created the fault. so you expected God to create a perfect world no possible temptations so we could be with him without sinning. then what would the purpose of giving us a free will? huh? it's like my parents, putting a foot carpet over the car carpet. kinda pointless. doesn't do much.

Quote[/b] ]so you expected God to create a perfect world no possible temptations so we could be with him without sinning.

And what is wrong with that? He made us with the ability to sin because then we could choose if we wanted to be damned or not? If he was as concerned as that, why not give us some more solid basis for belief?

The Free Will you are speaking of has been covered elsewhere and I still don't see how you can have your path made, sealed and stamped before you are even born, then be expected to choose. Free Will, I believe, is an excuse to move the blame from the being who created who and what we are to begin with. To state that God neither made our paths, nor see them or know them, is denying his omniscience.

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Nov. 09 2004,4:57)]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Nov. 09 2004,9:49)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Nov. 08 2004,8:18)]SA, sooner or later you will have to learn to stand on your own two feet.

Quote[/b] ]and if man WANTS to do Evil ALL the time. (repeatedly) doesn't that MAKE him inherantly evil?

Hmm.  Well let's look at this, shall we?  I don't know about you, but personally, I WANT to do GOOD ALL the time, repeatedly.  According to your logic, I guess that makes me inherantly GOOD, huh?

Now, I know I am not alone in that mindset.  And I'm willing to bet that the MAJORITY of Man also shares that mindset.  Therefore, according to your logic, MAN is inherantly GOOD.  You just proved yourself wrong.

Awesome agruement. Oh, I like it.

I think you are wrong of course. This is my humble opionin.  I think the human creature will sink to unspeakable depths given the right cirumstances. But given the best they do not all do the "good " thing whatever that might be.

But everyone is different. The have been many a "good" man in the eyes of the world. And I do not know how God has juded them. But I do know I am not to pass judement and be the best person God has called me to be

God Bless you all...everyone!

I wish you would address the LOGICAL part of your argument.

You may disagree with me all you want, but you need to back up that disagreement with logical assertations.  You have not done so.

What part of this does not address your logic DV,

I think the human creature will sink to unspeakable depths given the right cirumstances. But given the best they do not all do the "good " thing whatever that might be.


I answered the question. And Why do I need to back it up with Logical assertations. Where is this written??

i find it funny You would demand that, I thought this was a discussion. Not a debate?

 

[Mr.Bill]

Well if you don't back something up with logic, than it can come from anywhere, without necessarily having a basis on what is 'true'. If you want to acertain truth, logic is the best way to go. Because by definition, it is impossible for a sound arguement to be false.

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Nov. 10 2004,12:18)]Well if you don't back something up with logic, than it can come from anywhere, without necessarily having a basis on what is 'true'.  If you want to acertain truth, logic is the best way to go.  Because by definition, it is impossible for a sound arguement to be false.

I have a sound and true statement that is is areodynamically impossible for a bumble bee to fly thru the  air.

This is a true statement. By the laws of science that appliy to flight. A bumble is not suppose to gain flight.

So I have truth and logic behind me.

Yet we all know bumble bees fly.


Tell me again how your logic works. I seem to be missing somthing.

 

[Mr.Bill]

I'm afraid it's not that easy to be sound Montrez. In order to have a sound arguement and conclusion, your arguement must be valid and your premises must be true. Basically that means that it's impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. Your example arguement is the following:

1. Something must be aerodynamic in order to achieve flight.
2. Bees are not aerodynamic.
---
3. Bees cannot achieve flight.

This is a valid arguement, but because the first premise is not true, it is unsound. Which, of course, makes sense, because bees CAN fly. Like I said, by definition it is IMPOSSIBLE for a sound arguement to be false. Naturally though..it is really hard to make a sound arguement. Especially on complicated issues like those we discuss at this forum. I've seen a logical proof for the existence of god..it was something like 20 premises long. Yuck.

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Nov. 10 2004,1:06)]I'm afraid it's not that easy to be sound Montrez.  In order to have a sound arguement and conclusion, your arguement must be valid and your premises must be true.  Basically that means that it's impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false.  Your example arguement is the following:

1. Something must be aerodynamic in order to achieve flight.
2. Bees are not aerodynamic.
---
3. Bees cannot achieve flight.  

This is a valid arguement, but because the first premise is not true, it is unsound.  Which, of course, makes sense, because bees CAN fly.  Like I said, by definition it is IMPOSSIBLE for a sound arguement to be false.  Naturally though..it is really hard to make a sound arguement.  Especially on complicated issues like those we discuss at this forum.  I've seen a logical proof for the existence of god..it was something like 20 premises long.  Yuck.

Maybe I was confused withthe title of these forums, your arguement :

Religious Discussion

RReligious arguements:

Why do I need a sound arguement again.

I love GOD, I believe in the bible, the bible says mans nature is sinful. Why do I need logic to back it up. Besides what i have observed of human nature.

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Nov. 10 2004,1:06)]I'm afraid it's not that easy to be sound Montrez.  In order to have a sound arguement and conclusion, your arguement must be valid and your premises must be true.  Basically that means that it's impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false.  Your example arguement is the following:

1. Something must be aerodynamic in order to achieve flight.
2. Bees are not aerodynamic.
---
3. Bees cannot achieve flight.  

This is a valid arguement, but because the first premise is not true, it is unsound.  Which, of course, makes sense, because bees CAN fly.  Like I said, by definition it is IMPOSSIBLE for a sound arguement to be false.  Naturally though..it is really hard to make a sound arguement.  Especially on complicated issues like those we discuss at this forum.  I've seen a logical proof for the existence of god..it was something like 20 premises long.  Yuck.

Are we here to agure or share Ideas and thoughts??

 

[Mr.Bill]

The word 'argue' has gotten a bad rep because people tend to throw in the invisible word 'heated' in front of it. Basically all an arguement is is a statement of why you believe a certain something, backed up by premises. So it is sharing our ideas and thoughts, but it's also saying WHY we believe those things.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (SilentAssassin @ Nov. 09 2004,10:01)]so what did you expect? him to create a perfect world with NO satan? i feel that you are right about men WANTING to be good. no duh. think about the court room scenario again. when you die? DV, the truth, currently, you are going to hell. to be blunt, you are unless you can find someone else to talk to christianity. talking to you online is not gonna do much by itself. anyway, back to the courtroom thing. the ONLY way we can be good according to THE JUDGE is by having a good lawyer/immortal bullet vest. That is Jesus.

think about your idea that god created the fault. so you expected God to create a perfect world no possible temptations so we could be with him without sinning. then what would the purpose of giving us a free will? huh? it's like my parents, putting a foot carpet over the car carpet. kinda pointless. doesn't do much.

Dude, you SERIOUSLY need to cut down on the sugar.

First of all, how can you know that I am going to Hell? Do you have a special hotline to God? Or are you using ESP to read God's thoughts?

And which hell are you damning me to? Sheol? Gehenna? Tartarus? Hades?

No MAN can convince me to be a Christian. No MAN can convince me to believe in a god. If a god wants me to believe in it, then that god will give me sufficient evidence to render a proper decision.

Let's try and stay focused on the topic shall we?

Why do you think it's so difficult to create a world without evil and still have free will? Sure, maybe YOU can't figure it out, but don't you think an omnimax being could figure it out?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

I don't mean it in a very serious way. Nvm about it. i think we read it with the wrong intention...

Quote[/b] ]And which hell are you damning me to? Sheol? Gehenna? Tartarus? Hades?

btw, for that issue, there ARE multiple names for hell in the bible. however, essentially there is only 1. they are not like seperate rooms, or whatever...

 

[Dark Virtue]

Now this I have to hear.

Can you back that up with anything?

There are NOT multiple names for hell. They are all separate entities. However, if you think different, please try and prove it.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

No, let me explain again. I am saying that there are NOT seperate "hells" for people. In general it is all one. I'll find that through tonight's reading. i have small groups soon.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I await with bated breath.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

You are a conversation killer. lol.

 

[Dark Virtue]

What's wrong?

Go ahead, prove me wrong

 

[SLNT_FIR]

just now you did.

Quote[/b] ]I await with bated breath.

another one:

Quote[/b] ]I await with bated breath.

lol. there we go. i'm prolonging this.

i should stop this.

DV=Conversation Killer
SA= Unnecessarily prolonging topics

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

You seem to think God caused Adam and Eve to sin, as if he were sitting above and controling Adam and Eve. First of all enviroment doesn't cause man to sin. The Bible clearly states that God walked with Adam and Eve in the Gardon of Eden. It also states that he had to turn his back on his Son, because his son took the sins of the worlds upon himself. Now if God must turn his back on sin, that means the Garden of Eden must have been perfect for him to be in it. Perfect despite the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. Eve choose to give in to the temptation, as well did Adam. It isn't God that made man sin, man choose to. (redundant? yes, I am emphasizing my point) Second, when God created Lucifer the Archangel, he created him as a perfect entity. Lucifer choose to turn against God. God knew that Lucifer would rebel against God, but God gave Lucifer and Man free will. God doesn't want us to sin, but he allows us to choose, knowing that many will chose to, otherwise we would have no free will. Also, man chooses his enviroment. America has taken God out of schools and other such acts, and when you look around, what do you see, pervertedness, fornication, adultry, murder, idolitry. Man chose to sin.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

I agree with Penguin Slayer.