Atheism: Is It a Plausible Worldview?

[timor]

But we're not, Kohael.

And btw, I mean you no disrespect when I say this, but...you've been gone for a while, but I remember your posts....and ya can't hold a candle to Medjai

Anyways, good to have ya back, despite a thus far rocky return.

 

[Kohael <PC>]

That sounds like a challange, I think. Very well, I've been meaning to brush up on my Christian philosophy, so it would be an interesting chance to bat for the other team, so to speak. ^_^

 

[timor]

lol!

no challenge, and it didn't come from Medjai's mouth, i'm just saying that just because you're a "vet" around here, you shouldn't underestimate some of the "newbies"

 

[Thaddius]

Is that what this is about Timor?  Medjai and friends managed to sway you away from Christianity (assuming you were a Christain in the first place) so you brought them here to try and sway us as well?  I don't think you will find most of us with aa weak a faith or willing to give up so easy.

As for Kohael holding a candle to Medjai, I have yet to read one of Mejai's arguements I find convincing. I'm not sure what your using as the comparative here, but in my book, there isnt an athiest yet who can give a convincing arguement.

Cory

 

[CCGR]

Quote[/b] (Kohael &lt;PC&gt; @ Sep. 26 2003,4:59)]That sounds like a challange, I think.  Very well, I've been meaning to brush up on my Christian philosophy, so it would be an interesting chance to bat for the other team, so to speak. ^_^

you batting for us kohael? brushing up to defend against the newbies or brush up by challenging us as well?

 

[Medjai]

Thaddius, I must stress that I in no way was involved in Timor's losing a belief in the 'Sky Daddy' from up above.

Quote[/b] ] I don't think you will find most of us with aa weak a faith or willing to give up so easy.

I love how Christians insult those who 'strayed'. Isn't it such a beautiful thing?

Kohael, thanks for the laugh, gotta love it when people don't have an argument so they go for non-sequitor ad hominems.

Earlier in this thread I asked to see any recent cosomological developments supporting the idea of a creator.

I will now quote from Stephen Hawking on a recent cosmological theory.

This can be found of course as the second paragraph on page 126 of Stephen Hawking's The Theory of Everything.

Quote[/b] ]The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary also has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe. With the success of scientific theories in describing events, most people have come to believe that God allows the universe to evolve according to a set of laws. He does not seem to intervene in the universe to break these laws. However, the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started. It would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning that was a singularity, one could suppose that it was created by an outside agency. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed. It would simply be. What place then, for a creator?

 

[timor]

As Medjai said, he had no influence on me at all prior to my "conversion". I didn't meet him until a couple week after.

The simple fact is that I have come to know Medjai pretty well since then, and I have an enormous amount of respect for him, especially regardings some things which I know he is too modest to post on a message board, and which I will not embarass him by posting on here.

And as Medjai said, there's no reason to attack me, Thaddius, for my loss of belief in Christianity. I lost my faith because it didn't make sense. I didn't like that it didn't make sense, I didn't like that so many things seemed to have no chance of being true. I decided to STOP trying to rationalize everything to fit Christianity, to fit a book that, though it's errors may be shone, continues to be held in such high and inerrant esteem.

That being said, I did not bring a "bunch of freinds" here. Instead, I returned here with ONE person, Medjai. I know nobody else, atheist or otherwise, that is new here. Furthermore, I brought him here only because, as I said before, I respec thim very much and thought that he could bring some interesting, intellectual conversation here. Thus far, he has certainly succeeded - you must admit that much. As to your being swayed...

Christians often talk of atheists and other infidels as having "hardened hearts", so heardened that they will never "come to Christ" and "be saved". I think the same applies for Christians. They so rigidly and steadfastly believe in ONE thing, Christianity, and will do anything to defend it, twist any logic they must, bend or break and rule they must, and doublethink their way through life as much as they must, just so they do not lose that hope for some greater life after this one.

But hey, that's just my opinion. *shrug*

I leave you with the Wizard's First Rule, from the Sword of Truth Series =D

"People are stupid. They can be made to believe a lie, either because they wish it to be true, or they fear it to be true."

Toodles.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 26 2003,6:31)]

Quote[/b] ]Is that what this is about Timor? Medjai and friends managed to sway you away from Christianity (assuming you were a Christain in the first place) so you brought them here to try and sway us as well?

Timor didn't bring me here (just for the record).

Quote[/b] ]
I'm not sure what your using as the comparative here, but in my book, there isnt an athiest yet who can give a convincing arguement.

Interesting. I'm looking for a Christian to give me a convincing argument for Christianity.

The usual comments I get:

1-I'm closed minded (no...I'm not.)

2-God needs to lead you (why? how can i understand what it involves if i cannot understand it? anyway, I had many years of god leading me when I was a christian.)

 

[Thaddius]

It was not meant as an attack or an insult, just pointing out the obvious.  I don't word things very eloquently, straight and to the point.

I guess it is just coincidental how Timor shows back up, and all of a sudden we have this new influx of people who want to share how we are wrong and science is right.  

As for insulting him or attacking him, why would he be insulted if he is happy with his new found faith?

Quote[/b] ]Christians often talk of atheists and other infidels as having "hardened hearts", so heardened that they will never "come to Christ" and "be saved". I think the same applies for Christians. They so rigidly and steadfastly believe in ONE thing, Christianity, and will do anything to defend it, twist any logic they must, bend or break and rule they must, and doublethink their way through life as much as they must, just so they do not lose that hope for some greater life after this one.

It is called faith... You see, you and I are not much different. I put my faith in God through Jesus Christ, you in science.  Neither can be proven/disproven 100%.  It is a stalemate then.  There is no irrefutable proof for either.

Quote[/b] ]"People are stupid. They can be made to believe a lie, either because they wish it to be true, or they fear it to be true."

Et tu, brute.

Answer me 2 questions...

1. What happens to me when I die if I am wrong?
2. What happens to you when you die if you are wrong?

Cory

 

[LionOfJudah]

i am sorry some of the abstracts of Science require just as much faith to believe in as does Christianity and other religions, the only difference is that science rationalises EVERYTHING, and leaves no room for the supernatural.

 

[timor]

Not really, Lion. Some of scientific theory requires a bit of a leap, but much theory has come in time to become proven.

Now, Thaddius. About it being a stalemate, it really isn't. Science really does not require anywhere near the amount of "faith" that Christianity does, because sciene can be tested and retested, whereas Christianity cannot. Whereas the laws of physics, and the chemical properties of elements, and the behavior of biological matter all have certain trends they must follow, God does not. The things of science are held accountable. God is NOT held accountable. You can pray to him till the cows come home, and hey may still "say" no (because it is of course NEVER unanswered....)

Now, I really can't believe you used Pascal's Wager. I'm honestly shocked. But hey, I'll humor you.

1. What happens to me when I die if I am wrong?
What happens to you when you die if you are wrong? Well, you could just take a dirt nap like I believe happens, simply ceasing to exist. Or, you could burn in one of the hells of the THOUSANDS of OTHER religions. So, um, those are real good odds in your favor, man. More power to ya.

2. What happens to you when you die if you are wrong?
The same exact thing. If I am wrong, and there is a god, who's to say it's the Christian god? Or, we could even go further. What if reincarnation happens to be correct? Then I am wrong, and I come back to life in some other form. Sounds like a sweet deal to me. Maybe eventually, if Buddhism is true, I'll reach a higher plane of existance. Or maybe, just maybe, I'll burn in Christian hell, Jewish hell, Islam hell, Greek hades, Roman hades, etc..............

You see, there are many, many more sides to the issue than two. This isn't a coin toss between Christianity and Atheism. It's a dice roll between atheism and every single religion known to man, past AND present (cuz who's to say Zeus isn't sitting up on Mt. Olympus..?)

 

[Thaddius]

Your right, I did. but it doesnt matter, you answered it the exact way I thought you would, thanks for humoring me.

Quote[/b] ]You see, there are many, many more sides to the issue than two. This isn't a coin toss between Christianity and Atheism. It's a dice roll between atheism and every single religion known to man, past AND present (cuz who's to say Zeus isn't sitting up on Mt. Olympus..?)

Not really, for me there is only two sides. Belief in Christ, or not. There is no in between. Since you come to a Christian board, seeking the arguement, this should be a given. You keep trying to be comparative to other religions, which is irrrelevent.

Cory

 

[timor]

Not true. You can't simply eliminate all other sides. Heck, to do that would even be to admit that atheism is a possibility, which you surely don't believe. So by your reasoning, there should really be only 1 possibility.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense, because Pascal's Wager is not confined to this particular board. And even if it were, it's stakes would be suddenly broadened should a Muslim come to these boards to debate.

All other religions ARE relevant, because your religion is, whether you like it or not, in competition with them all. After all, YOUR God said to have no other gods before him - that sounds like a challenge, to me

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 27 2003,11:09)]Not really, for me there is only two sides.  Belief in Christ, or not.  There is no in between.  Since you come to a Christian board, seeking the arguement, this should be a given.  You keep trying to be comparative to other religions, which is irrrelevent.

How is that irrelevant?

If Jesus was right, and you believe, you go to heaven.

If Jesus was wrong, you may or may not go to a nice place...depending on:

1-if there isn't anything else, you are worm food.

2-if there is a deity who cares not; if the "god of Spinoza" exists, he doesn't give a care whether you believe or not, so sure...you can come in.

3-There could be a deity that cares deeply; Jehovah or Allah would not appreciate you worshipping Jesus as a deity. Technically the same god (and no, I am not going to debate whether Allah is the same as Jehovah-the Muslims believe he is), but no trinity, ergo, no Jesus as part of god. It is likely that Jehovah Allah would send you to hell.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Not true. You can't simply eliminate all other sides

I have, including atheism.  Funny what faith makes you do huh.

Quote[/b] ]So by your reasoning, there should really be only 1 possibility.

For me, there is only 1 side.  But you bring your side, therefore I humor you.

Pascals wager is not confined to this particular board, but this particular discussion is between Christianity and Athiesm.  ALL others are irrelevent in this discussion.  If a muslim would come, that would be a seperate discussion.

As for my religion being in competition for all the others, I don't believe in those, so I don't consider those competition.  You might, but that surprises me since you don't believe in any God.  

Either you a Christian, or your not, there is no inbetween.

Cory

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 27 2003,2:10)]Either you a Christian, or your not, there is no inbetween.

Very true.

Just as one is either a Muslim or not.
Or a Jew.
Or many other religions. I understand your point, I am simply making a statement.

However, even looking at just Christianity (defined as a "follower of Jesus Christ," and I am excluding Mormons, JWs, and the like), there is a discrepency amongst what is required.

For example, most mainstream Protestants believe in faith/professing faith as the means to get to heaven. Stripped of all the dogma, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead, you are saved.

But do you need to just believe, or do you need to profess it? And what of baptism? And can it be a sprinkling or does it need to be full immersion?

Then there is the whole "faith without works is dead" thing. So if you just believe, maybe you are not saved.

Then there is the whole keeping the law thing. Jesus didn't abolish the law, he came to uphold it. So I guess you'd better be keeping kosher.

Finally, there is the whole predestination question, meaning that no matter what I do, it has already been decided if I am saved or not, irrelevant of what I do.

So play Pascal's Wager all day.

Just to save everyone time, here are the stock responses (one per, if you want more, I'd be happy to provide more):
Man saved by faith - John 3:16
Man saved by faith and saying it - Romans 10:9
Man saved by faith and works - Matthew 7:21
Law is forever - Matt 5:18
Man has no choice (as per Calvin): Romans 9:15

Also, I would love to hear how anyone reconciles an all knowing god with free will.

 

[illegal prophet]

Quote[/b] ]1. What happens to me when I die if I am wrong?
2. What happens to you when you die if you are wrong?


Not really, for me there is only two sides.  Belief in Christ, or not.  There is no in between.  Since you come to a Christian board, seeking the arguement, this should be a given.  You keep trying to be comparative to other religions, which is irrrelevent.

You've used pascal's wager, which is imcomplete.  The point is to analyze all possibilities to gain a better understanding of the situation.  But you have intentionally excluded some possibilities in order to favor the outcome you desire.  Doing so makes your analysis unproduction and pointless.

As timor pointed out; full analysis of all possibilities is the way to understand the options.


btw, another possibility that timor didn't point out. If atheists are right and you are wrong; you would have spent your life worshipping something imaginary and false. A life wasted when the real truth could have been persued. But I suppose if you enjoy it, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Kidan]

timor--if we die (as Christians) and we're not right, but some other religion is. Then the life we have lived as Christians falls into the good side of all other religions. We have just as good a chance of making it into those religions respective post-life reward as any practioner of that particular faith. For all those other religions are based upon works. Did we live a good life and treat others kindly?

If we die and we're not right, and no religion is (i.e. Atheism) then what exactly have we lost? 10% of our money? Time spent helping and teaching others.



BigJ--you just need to believe. But this belief, and the resulting walk with Christ, will change how you behave.

 

[Medjai]

Kidan, you hopefully do realize that Christians are not morally superior to Atheists? I don't go around doing 'whatever I want', 'whenever I want' simply because there is no God. In fact, you are moral for the sake of your God, I do it in the hopes of being virtuous, now which is truely more altruistic (e.g. being good to follow Christ from which you will reap benefits or being a good person simply to benefit others and for the sake of being 'good' in itself)?

Only answer that of course if you honestly believe that Atheists are immoral and all Christians, moral.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Sep. 27 2003,8:47)]BigJ--you just need to believe.  But this belief, and the resulting walk with Christ, will change how you behave.

That is one of the few insults that actually bothers me; the assumption that I was never a Christian.

Honestly, there was a time when I would have been right beside you defending Jesus as the truth. I was born again, I accepted Jesus as my personal saviour, I read the Bible daily and prayed, as well as going to church.

I help handicapped people by making texts readable for them. For free. I'm working on getting a teaching credential for Special Education.

On that point, why are kids born with disabilities? (and no, that's not why I don't believe in God. When I was a believer, I believed that it was a test for parents, along the lines of Job.)

Quite honestly, I try to be a good person. So if you are right, and there is a "works" deity in place, I guess I'll see you there.