Abortion

Okay y'all...sorry I couldn't quote you exactly-my teacher frowned on internet quoting
mad.gif
Anywho, this is my report...continue your debates...it's pretty interesting.
Anyway, later!
~Jordyn

What comes to mind when a person thinks of “abortion”? Is it an acceptable form of population control? Should abortion ever be considered acceptable? As far as the world being overpopulated, that is a myth. Some scientists have claimed that every person in the world can fit into Texas and it would be less crowded than a regular day in Manhattan! The agricultural industry has stated that the world could feed eight times its own population-which stands at about six billion people. The World Fact Book has stated, “The [worldwide] production of major food crops has increased substantially in the last 20 years; the annual production of cereals, for instance, has risen by 50 percent, from about 1.2 billion metric tons to about 1.8 billion metric tons; production increases have resulted mainly from increased yields rather than increases in planted areas.” In the province of Alberta, Canada, six billion people could be housed in single-family homes (Reality Check n.p.). Should humans be considered mere animals that need to be controlled before we outgrow our environment? Evidently not, if one Canadian province could house the entire world’s population comfortably. Mother Teresa said, “How can there be too many children? It’s like saying there are too many flowers!”
If the world is willing to condone abortion on the count that “It isn’t a real child-that is just a fetus” then perhaps people should be reminded that they too were once “fetuses”. How does a life ascertain worth? Is the life of one person worth more than another merely based on life experiences or age? There is one simple definition for abortion. “Abortion is the deliberate and direct killing…of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence” (Ethics 24). No matter what the living circumstances of a child would be, he or she should at least be given the chance to make something of himself/herself. “It is true that the decision to have an abortion is often tragic and painful for the mother insofar as the decision to rid herself of the fruit of conception is not made for purely selfish reasons or out of convenience, but out of a desire to protect certain important values such as…a decent standard of living for the other members of the family. Sometimes it is feared that the child to be born would live in such conditions that it would be better if the birth did not take place. Nevertheless, these reasons and others like them, however serious and tragic, can never justify the deliberate killing of an innocent human being” (Ethics 24). Yes, that “fetus” is a human being. “From the time that the ovum is fertilized, a life is begun which is neither that of the father nor the mother; it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already. This has always been clear and…modern genetic science offers clear confirmation. It has demonstrated that from the first instant there is established the program of what this living being will be: a person, this individual person with his characteristic aspects already well determined. Right from fertilization the adventure of a human life begins, and each of its capacities requires time-a rather lengthy time to find its place and to be in a position to act” (Ethics 25). Based on this quote, the child is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment (“…nor shall any State deprive any person of life…without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”) and aborting him/her would be murder.
Some define abortion as a humane way to get rid of a child. Dr. Bernard Nathanson, M.D., describes one method of aborting a child: “He would have a trained doctor administer general anesthesia. The cervix would have been prepared the night before by inserting a laminaria, a seaweed-based substance that would absorb fluids and swell, dilating the cervix in a matter of hours. He would break the bag of waters and quickly dismember the fetus blindly with a polyp forceps…He illustrated his lecture with slides in color, showing the fetus reconstructed at the end of the abortion like a grisly jigsaw puzzle. One could see where the arms and legs had been ripped from the body and removed separately, how the spine had been snapped in two and removed with dispatch, how the skull had been crushed and the brain drained out before the bony parts were removed” (Nathanson 26-27). Dr. Nathanson later explains yet another process: “With suction, a plastic hollow tube (vacurette) is used, with the caliber varying to match the tightness of the cervix. A clear plastic tube leads from the vacurette to one empty bottle where the bodily remains are trapped in a gauze bag; the blood seeps into the bottle below. A second bottle sets up the suction. With the vacurette, the operator quickly pulls the conceptus from the wall of the uterus. If this is done after about ten weeks, one can see identifiable parts of the fetus’s body dismembered and trapped in the gauze bag…The later one gets in the “first trimester” (the first twelve weeks) the more likely the suction must be alternated with the hand-operated forceps to dismember the fetal body in the womb and extract pieces, working blindly in that large, soft chamber” (Nathanson 72-73).
The fact of the matter is, that whether America realizes it or not, she has witnessed the legalized killing of over thirty-five million innocent unborn children (Ethics 48). Pro-Choice activists need to face a simple fact—“life” and “choice” are not antonyms, but “life” and “death” are complete opposites. There is no correlation between the terms “choice” and “death”; therefore, one can choose to be either Pro-Life or Pro-Death. “In the way that we now look back on slavery, we hope that Americans of the next century will look back with deepest shame on the abortion regime of Roe” (Ethics 50). The child has no choice of whether he desires to live or not—that choice is forced upon him by his parents, much like the slaves of the past were forced into their lifestyles. “We may seek moral shelter behind claims that it is not really a human being, that it is only a potential human being, that it does not look like a human being. But we know that nothing that is not a human being has the potential of becoming a human being, and nothing that has the potential of becoming a human being is not a human being. We hold against it that it is totally dependent, but it will be as dependent one month outside the womb as it is one month inside the womb. Nor can we entirely repress the knowledge that, in the moral tradition that formed our culture, the condition of dependence obliges others to be dependable. As for it not looking like a human being, the embryo or fetus, or call it what we will, is exactly what a human being looks like at that age. It is what each of us looked like when we were that old” (Ethics 48). In conclusion, since it has been determined that life begins at the moment of conception and that the Fourteenth Amendment protects all lives under its power, there is only one answer to the question of abortion. Is it ethical? No, it is not ethical to murder innocent children. There is an American tragedy happening before the very eyes of America herself—her youth is being slaughtered, one child at a time, and she legalized the massacre.
 
I'm glad to see you approached the issue from both sides... Or at least I would have been.

Eon
 
uhm.. not to be nit-picky or anything, but the assignment could have been to write a presuasive paper so he would have to write just one side of the topic in an attempt to sway readers to his pov.
 
Sorry Mr_Eon, I tried to incorporate both sides into my paper, but my teacher shot that idea down during the outlining process. So yeah
 
Give him some slack dude.
Mmkay Eon. So basically from what I got of your relation...you wanted it, and accidents happen? DAng, I would hate to be your accident.
I wonder if, no man practiced abstinence, where would we be in the entire world? People, morality, whatever.
 
Hi again Tom!

Tom: [Health and safety issues are there in every instance of pregnancy.]

Again, yes, we have agreed that ALL prgenancies, in general, have an element of risk, but you seem to be missing the point I am making: As I have said, I am not referring to every day, normal pregnancies. I am specifically referring to pregnancies with life threatenting complications.

Consider a married woman with children to support who happens to have an underlying health problem. You guys have said it yourselves, even with contraception there is always a risk of pregnancy. She ends up pregnant and because of previously existing health problems, giving birth would kill her. Does she carry the baby to term, knowing that it's at the expense of her post-birth children (and for that matter, it would also be at the expense of the child she has given birth to)? Obviously, adoption is not a solution. It seems to me that it takes a lot of arrogance to tell a mother that she is wrong for wanting to keep her own life, and/or that she should give birth at all costs, IN SPITE OF the detrimental effects on the children she *has*.

And btw this is not a hypothetical thing that never happens - I have known two women in this exact situation - one had a case of diabetes that was difficult to control and was almost life threatening in and of itself, and the other had just been diagnosed with cancer when she found out she was pregnant. The woman w/ cancer had initially wanted to try to carry to term, but in the end she couldn't go through treatment w/out harming the fetus, and w/out treatment she had no chances and the baby would have died anyway. Also, they were already having financial trouble due to medical costs and her husband *needed* whatever help she was still able to give, with the *present* kids - by his own admission, he would never have been able to keep everything under control not only without her help but plus an infant. Honestly, I don't understand how we think we have the right to tell these women what to do - and in your case (as a male, I mean, lol) you should consider yourself fortunate that you will never have to make the choices she did.  

Tom: [So the 5% of those "special" cases should justify the 95% of cases used as birth control by irresponsible women/couples?  I don't think so.]

Tom, I already responded to this point in the very statement you quoted in your post! Re-read:

(me, previously): "Imo Tom,*nothing* justifies irresponsibly getting pregnant and then having an abortion for the sake of convenience. But at the same time, nothing (i.e. people abusing the system) justifies *removing* the choice for women who need and deserve it."

Remember my example of the welfare system? Yes, people abuse it. But just because there are those who abuse it doesn't mean we should remove it and let legitimately needy mothers and their children starve. One really has nothing to do with the other.

I am not saying the legitimate cases "justify" the non-legit ones. I will repeat again that *nothing* justifies it imo. What those 5% of cases  does justify is keeping the option available. I hope you are catching the differences between what I am saying and what you are implying I said - they are two seperate things.

Tom: [People need money to survive, they don't need to slaughter children to do the same thing.
If you're not in a financial position to support a child, than you put it up for adoption.  We have that system in place, use it.]

Honestly I am not sure what those last two sentences were in response to. Were you referring to my comment about welfare? I was just using that as an example. But, er, yes, if a person had a pregnancy with life threatening complications, they would have to terminate the pregnancy in order to survive.

I hope this makes my opinion a bit clearer.

Take care,

Saint J
 
That's the whole point, Ultima, nobody has to be my mistake, because once one was made I ensured that it was dealt with as quickly as possible.

To sum up, I don't agree with Minotes conclusion. I think Abortion will be viewed in the same way that death by exposure is viewed now. It's not an ideal solution to the problem, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to propose a workable alternative BUT until 0% failure contraception that is cheap and easy to use is devised, there are going to be mistakes, and those mistakes will need dealing with.

Perhaps some of the effort you guys devote to getting Abortion banned could be devoted to solving the ACTUAL problem instead?


Eon
 
Oh sorry Eon, I missed a post there!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Really? So are you pro or anti the current war in Iraq?

Neither, I'm on the fence on this issue.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Or are you hypocritical enough to think that a potential, future, threat against your country (but not you personally) outweighs the real and actual and imminent danger to the Iraqis?

Saddam is also an danger to the Iraqis you know.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Please explain how the current adoptive system would help relieve the MASSIVE influx of new adoptees, how it would pay to support all the pregnant mothers, cover the medical expenses and counter the concommitant social problems.

1.8 million babies are killed in the US anually.  Over 90% of these are killed as a result of abortion used for birth control.  People's choices can solve the problem for us.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Again, yes, we have agreed that ALL prgenancies, in general, have an element of risk, but you seem to be missing the point I am making: As I have said, I am not referring to every day, normal pregnancies. I am specifically referring to pregnancies with life threatenting complications.

Which make up the vast minority of cases anyway.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Consider a married woman with children to support who happens to have an underlying health problem. You guys have said it yourselves, even with contraception there is always a risk of pregnancy. She ends up pregnant and because of previously existing health problems, giving birth would kill her. Does she carry the baby to term, knowing that it's at the expense of her post-birth children (and for that matter, it would also be at the expense of the child she has given birth to)? Obviously, adoption is not a solution. It seems to me that it takes a lot of arrogance to tell a mother that she is wrong for wanting to keep her own life, and/or that she should give birth at all costs, IN SPITE OF the detrimental effects on the children she *has*.

I've already stated my case on this one.  If there are two lives in jeopardy, I'd take the mother.  A child wont be very happy without his mother, and the mother already has responsibilities she must attend to.  She's not having an abortion because she needs birth control, she's trying to save her own life, much like I would if a guy charged me with a knife in an alley.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Honestly, I don't understand how we think we have the right to tell these women what to do - and in your case (as a male, I mean, lol) you should consider yourself fortunate that you will never have to make the choices she did.

But taking some less common cases doesn't justify the other 90%+ that are used as birth control does it?  In that case, I think we DO have the right to tell the mother she can't kill her child because of her decisions.  I mean that's like saying we're not going to check people at the airport because the vast majority are not carrying weapons, it just doesn't make sense.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What those 5% of cases  does justify is keeping the option available.

But only to those 5% of cases.....

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Honestly I am not sure what those last two sentences were in response to. Were you referring to my comment about welfare?

I was offering an alternative to slaughtering your child.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Perhaps some of the effort you guys devote to getting Abortion banned could be devoted to solving the ACTUAL problem instead?

But that can't be solved by us because we are not making the same decisions.

Good posts as always fellas!  And Eon, I'm really sorry to hear about your own experience, but thank-you for sharing that with us nontheless!

If you guys were wondering what took me so long, I was in Dayton, Ohio visiting the USAF museum with my grandfather, uncle, and cousin, and we had a blast!
 
Yeah but if we want a total failsafe contraceptive dude then that means we're going to support safe sex, premarital sex, and that is not something Christians are to. The whole point is thus: spread abstinence. Not many will listen, but some will. I won't work to make life better for the world...I'm going to make life as miserable as it can be for this world, because this is not my world, nor is it any Christian's...it belongs to Satan. It has been said as much. He is the Prince of the Air, the Prince of this World. He can have it.
 
Hiya Tom,

Good to see you back!

me, previously: [... I am not referring to every day, normal pregnancies. I am specifically referring to pregnancies with life threatenting complications.]


Tom: [Which make up the vast minority of cases anyway.]

It puzzles me somewhat that you keep pointing out that those cases are a minority, as if that has bearing. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree that the number of cases has any relevance. I personally don't think it makes any difference how few cases there are - I believe that if there are any (and there will always be some), the option should remain available to those who need it.

 
me, previously: [What those 5% of cases  does justify is keeping the option available.]


Tom: [But only to those 5% of cases.....]

Yes, precisely! This is what I've been saying all along! I knew we'd see eye to eye on something  
wink.gif



me, prev: [Consider a married woman with children to support who happens to have an underlying health problem. <<snip rest of analogy>>]

Tom: [I've already stated my case on this one.  If there are two lives in jeopardy, I'd take the mother.  A child wont be very happy without his mother, and the mother already has responsibilities she must attend to.  She's not having an abortion because she needs birth control, she's trying to save her own life, much like I would if a guy charged me with a knife in an alley.]

Sorry bout that, I must have missed it the first time around. But I cannot tell you how VERY relieved I am to see that, in those situations, you ARE considering not just the unborn life, but the lives of *all* who are affected.

Based on all of your statements above, it actually appears that we are largely in agreement on this topic. This is one of the reasons I find labels ineffective and harmful to discussion -  when we throw around propaganda terms like "pro- life", "pro-choice", "anti-abortion", etc, it gets very confusing because NONE of those terms accurately describes the position one takes.

The only way to truly give an accurate description of one's position is to simply say that they either support abortion, even if that support is only in a very limited capacity (as in your case), or they don't.  


Glad you had fun in Ohio!

Saint J
 
Well Ultima, if you're not in the game then stop #####ing about the rules... Perhaps you can try preaching to your brethren about avoiding premarital sex - unprotected or not - but don't presume to legislate to those that don't share your, frankly, unrealistic ideals.

Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yes, precisely! This is what I've been saying all along! I knew we'd see eye to eye on something

I was under the impression you thought that those 5% of cases were justification for the other 95%. Is this so?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The only way to truly give an accurate description of one's position is to simply say that they either support abortion, even if that support is only in a very limited capacity (as in your case), or they don't.

Well, I don't believe supporting it when the mother's life is in clear danger supports the practice as a whole.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] That said, I don't believe that you can legislate morality.

*scratches head* Legislation by definition is enforcing a particular moral point of view, it is never neutral. You will be punished if you steal, rob, rape, murder etc. These laws inforce a particular moral point of view.

I'll comment on all the main opinions expressed in this topic when I get home (where I can write a lengthy response).

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] This "debate" is most likely going to be completely non productive because the fact is, scientists themselves do not know for sure when life begins and as such, for those who believe life does *not* begin at conception, naturally they will not see themselves as murderers. To be honest, all differences of opinion aside, I think that *this* is the crux of the matter and that many people who have abortions are not "bad" or even immoral people, they simply disagree that life begins at conception.

Most scientists grant that life begins at conception, that?s not the issue. The abortion disagreement is one of personhood, not of when life begins. The pro-choice opinion, by-in-large is that the unborn is not a human PERSON, and hence is not entitled to the rights of a human person. Now, if one is unsure when life begins (as the Supreme Court decided) then, logically speaking, it is better to err on the side of caution, than not and to say that life begins at conception. Although in reality, because the Supreme Court decided not to uphold the unborn life as sacred, for all practical purposes, they aren?t being neutral and are saying that ?Life begins at birth,? despite their rationale that ?no one knows when it begins.?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Morals are a relative thing, and if someone in power wants to instill their morals into law than it will be done, which is why we have this question before us right now.

You haven?t provided a rationale as to why morals are relative, so what is your rationale?  Onto the issue of someone in power deciding morality, that is irrelevant to the morality of something. Because the people in power legislate certain things it doesn?t follow that those things are necessarily moral. Look at Russia under Stalin, Germany under Hitler, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. It doesn?t follow that because a government legislates something it is necessarily right. If the United States said it is legal to torture babies, it wouldn't follow that that is moral.  

To ultimate avatars discourse on morality as relative, what?s your rationale for morals being relative?
 
Observe: Guy Cumberbatch pulls into a parking lot. Old Woman Crowley wanted to pull into that spot. Old Woman Crowley thinks it's immoral the dude took her spot. Guy thinks it's okay that he did it, and immoral of Crowley to spaz. Cheap example of relative morality. I think it's right, you don't. Fine, you're entitled to your opinion. In the end, no one's right and yet everyone's right. There is no standard to hold to, and therefore, in reality, no morality.
 
Morals is just a shared code of beliefs and behaviour - the majority decides whether something is "good" or "bad".

Examples include Smoking, Slave Owning, Fashion, Drinking, Swearing, wearing of hats...


Eon
 
Hello Tom,


Tom: [I was under the impression you thought that those 5% of cases were justification for the other 95%.  Is this so?]

No, not at all, and this is at least the third time I have specifically clarified that. As I have said at least twice now, nothing (imo) justfies the irresponsibility of the majority.

me previously: [The only way to truly give an accurate description of one's position is to simply say that they either support abortion, even if that support is only in a very limited capacity (as in your case), or they don't.]

Tom: [Well, I don't believe supporting it when the mother's life is in clear danger supports the practice as a whole.]

If I'm understanding your statement correctly, it *sounds* as though you are saying that you do not think a mother has the right to abort, even if she will lose her life, because if you support HER right, you will, by default, be supporting EVERY woman getting an abortion for *any* reason. I hope you can see how nonsensical that logic is!

Also, you seem to be contradicting yourself, because in a prior post you have already said that you DID think it was ok for a mother (with other children) to terminate a pregnancy if giving birth would cost her her life.

So tell me flat out: is it ok (in your opinion) for a woman in those circumstances to have an abortion if it will save her life? If your answer is yes, then you DO support abortion, but a limited use of abortion - i.e. you support it but only for those in specifically life threatening situations. It appears as though you don't want to admit that you support abortion under extenuating circumstances - why is that? Am I wrong?

Here's an analogy: I do not support killing in the form of murder, but I DO think killing is sometimes justified, in self defense for instance, or in war (whether or not certain wars are justifiable is a different can of worms).

Now, if I support the right of a person to kill in order to protect themselves from being killed, that does not automatically mean that by default I am supporting wanton, random murder, right?  

And by the same token, if I believe a woman should have the choice to abort if her own life is at stake , that does not mean that, by default, I support abuse of that choice.

I hope my position is a bit clearer now.

Take care,
Saint J
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Observe: Guy Cumberbatch pulls into a parking lot. Old Woman Crowley wanted to pull into that spot. Old Woman Crowley thinks it's immoral the dude took her spot. Guy thinks it's okay that he did it, and immoral of Crowley to spaz. I think it's right, you don't. Fine, you're entitled to your opinion. In the end, no one's right and yet everyone's right. There is no standard to hold to, and therefore, in reality, no morality.

I’m sorry, but that’s a non-sequitir and is thus illogical. Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premises. It doesn’t follow that because there are disagreements over what is moral, therefore no one is right. Lets say I think that torturing babies for fun is wrong, and you do not. Because we differ in our opinion, it doesn’t follow that neither of us is correct. At any rate, you have yet to provide a rational basis for relativistic morality. If you want a serious discussion of this issue read “Relativisim: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air” by Gregory Koukl, or “Ethics: Discovering Right and Wrong” by Louis Pojman.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Morals is just a shared code of beliefs and behaviour - the majority decides whether something is "good" or "bad".

Examples include Smoking, Slave Owning, Fashion, Drinking, Swearing, wearing of hats...

First of all, major ethicists disagree with that definition. You haven’t shown that your definition is logical, and classical definitions of morality don’t define it in such a way as you did. They define morality as a universal code (equally applicable to all) that is prescriptive in nature, that is, it tells how things ought to be not how they are (they don’t merely say “differences of opinion exist”). At any rate, to your “majority decides” argument. That’s also a non-sequitir. It doesn’t follow that because the majority decides something that it is therefore moral. Because the majority of German society condoned the slaughter of the Jews of Europe, it doesn’t follow that such actions are moral. Some of the examples you listed aren't even issues of morality, so that's a category fallacy for one. Secondly, the other issues are addressed earlier in my reply so I don't need to address them one by one.
 
*Just a note on partial-birth abortions*
Okay, this is rather disgusting, IMHO.
The delivery begins, and when the doctor can get to the base of the skull, he drills a hole into it and sucks the brain out. Now, does this sounds humane to anyone? Can you tell me that is not murder? That baby was born! His (or her) head was out of the womb! And it is ethical to drill a hole into his head and suck his brain out?
I think not.
~Jordyn
 
Hello Jordyn : )

J: [The delivery begins, and when the doctor can get to the base of the skull, he drills a hole into it and sucks the brain out. Now, does this sounds humane to anyone? Can you tell me that is not murder? That baby was born! His (or her) head was out of the womb! And it is ethical to drill a hole into his head and suck his brain out?]

Nope, I agree with you. I am against abortions past the 3rd trimester. Thank goodness, partial birth abortions are rare. Actually I read last year that a bill was going to pass that would have made PB abortions illegal, but the Republicans rejected it because PB wasn't enough, they wanted ALL abortion illegal. Honestly, I think they were nuts should have taken what was being offered.

But to offer another view re: late term abortions (not partial birth, just late term)- yes, I'm sure they are aesthetically unpleasant (translation: grotesque) to watch, but it would probably be just as grotesque to watch the mother die a brutal death - and who is to say that one life is more important than the other? And if the mother has other children (or even if she doesn't), I think there is much more to be considered than how horrific it all looks.

Just something to think about!

Let us know how you did on your report when you find out : )

Saint J
 
A note on what minotesvardet just said:  
My twin sisters were born almost two months early.  Thier due date was on July 4th, and thier birth date was on May 16th.  So under todays laws babies who were older than my sisters were when they arrived at home are being slaughtered in the gruesome manner!  Are you telling me that my parents, supposing they did not want these 2, could have taken them home and drowned them in the bath tub?  That at least would be more "humane" (goodness I hate that word) than what was just described!

To the whole morality debate:
There is one thing that can be said about relativism: You must believe absolutely that there are no absolutes.  
Mr. Eon, morals are "just a shared code of beliefs"?
Supposing that they are, why then do so few people follow them?  Many people, if you ask them, will tell you that lying, cheating, stealing, or any number of other things, are wrong.  
Now I know that it is humanly impossible NOT to sin, but I have had a person (no joke) tell me that, "lying is wrong, I lie all the time."   Those aren't his exact words, but that is exactly the message he conveyed in plain unmistakable language.  
So we have a delima, people know something is wrong(morality), but totally disregard that knowledge.  Look at this situation from the outside.  If a system contains something, but does make signifigant use of that thing.  What does that imply?  Why would humans create morality when it is precisly what impedes many of our human desires?  (note: I don't think that impediment is a bad thing.)  
The obvious answer is that we did NOT in fact create morality, it was put there by a Creator.  (I'm not even arguing that my God did that right now, though I believe He did)  And if God put that morality in us, then wouldn't He be an impartial judge of Truth?
 
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