Abortion

If an eight year-old is raped and is impregnated, do we let her bear the kid and risk her life? Just for the few eight year-olds in how many rapes must we legalize abortion, something that would give the many older and far more mature people a way to slaughter their children as well...
 
What's the big deal about taking human life when we find it morally more acceptable to do so? It's done every day - sometimes by ordinary people, sometimes by policemen or soldiers and sometimes in the tens of thousands by politicians.

Personally when I had to participate in this decision I did so knowing that if I didn't somebody else was probably going to have to clear up my mess for me. I felt that this way I was safeguarding three futures - mine, my partners and the unborn childs (who would otherwise have had a disadvantaged start in life). I knew what I was doing when I helped make the decision, I've never pretended it was anything other than a legally sanctioned killing and I place the responsibility for it firmly on my own conscience.

Fine - so I have blood on my hands, so do lots of other people. I made the best decision I could with the facts and emotions that I had at the time. I'd make the same decision again. There are many other circumstances under which I'd take a life too - but luckily this is the only one in which I can say I practiced what I preach.

Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What's the big deal about taking human life when we find it morally more acceptable to do so? It's done every day - sometimes by ordinary people, sometimes by policemen or soldiers and sometimes in the tens of thousands by politicians.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the 30-50 million people Josef Stalin starved to death!  What's wrong with taking human lives when SOME people find it morally acceptable to do so?  I think a lot is wrong with that!

I only would take a life where I thought my own or those of many others were in danger. There isn't enough physical danger to the parties involved to constitute a reason for abortion. Last I checked, a fetus has never assaulted anyone.
 
Really? So are you pro or anti the current war in Iraq?

Or are you hypocritical enough to think that a potential, future, threat against your country (but not you personally) outweighs the real and actual and imminent danger to the Iraqis?

Life is taken when it is deemed expedient and acceptable to do so. Not JUST to safeguard an equal and opposite number of other lives.

Eon
 
Hello Tom, thanks for an interesting post. Some comments:

me, previously:
This "debate" is most likely going to be completely non productive because the fact is, scientists themselves do not know for sure when life begins and as such, for those who believe life does *not* begin at conception, naturally they will not see themselves as murderers. To be honest, all differences of opinion aside, I think that *this* is the crux of the matter and that many people who have abortions are not "bad" or even immoral people, they simply disagree that life begins at conception.

Tom (quoting Dr G):  
[<<I think that we can now also say that the question of the beginning of life---when life begins---is no longer a question for theological or philosophical dispute.  It is an established scientific fact.  Theologians and philosophers may go on to debate the meaning of life or purpose of life, but it is an established fact that all life, including human life, begins at the moment of conception. >>

Do you agree with Dr. Gordon?  I'm pretty sure he's a better authority on the subject than either of use wouldn't you agree?]

Well, not really - I can't agree with that quote this point. Unfortunately, quotes like these do not solve the problem imo - all I have to do is get quotes from other doctors who disagree with Gordon and it could go on ad nauseum (this also applies to the website citing deaths that resulted from abortion). And in fact, in my initial statement, rather than saying "scientists don't know for sure" I should have said "scientists cannot even agree amongst themselves" - that would expressed my thoughts more accurately. It would be one thing if it was a minor contention and an overwhelming majority (or not.. heck, any majority will do lol) of scientists had come to the same conclusion, but it really seems evenly split at best.

 
me prev:
Also, just out of curiosity, what is your (and anyone else who cares to comment) opinion on young girls who are just barely old enough to bear children yet end up pregnant as a result of rape, incest or any combination of atrocities? They *themselves* are children, and often the act of giving birth puts their own life at stake. Do we sacrifice one child for the other, and if so, how do we pick which one? And whose decision is it anyway, should it be up to someone else to choose when it's the child whose life is at stake?

Tom:
[One of my cousins is the product of a date rape, and he turned out to be a fantastic guy(and a great Christian might I add).]

That is wonderful, but still begs the question - should we be willing to sacrifice the life of the pregnant child (since I was using children in my example) because the child being born will possibly grow up to be a great guy or girl? It still seems that you are disregarding the threat to the life of the older (pregnant) child in favor of the unborn life. I realize that death in *adult* childbirth is very rare, but death still occurs when it's children giving birth - their bodies simply aren't designed for that kind of strain. I don't understand the logic that one child should martyr itself for another. I am not saying that a young girl should not carry the baby to term *if she can*, I am just saying I think we need to consider both sides very carefully and I really think each individual case has to be examined fully before making an across-the-board judgement. And btw, I am well aware that there are potential dangers of the abortion procedure but in many cases the risks of aborting would be far less than the risk of giving birth. Which is why again, I think each case is individual.

Tom:
{This question comes up in every discussion, and the answer never changes.  The severity of the situation will often prevent people from seeing the big picture.  Killing the child doesn't make the situation any better, but let's just say, for the sake of argument, that we'll allow abortions in cases of rape.  A study by the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology(1971) pinned a figure of 0.6% pregnancies in cases of rape.]

Do have any stats more recent than those?  (I'll look for some also and we can compare).

Tom:
[I don't care about the margin of error, because that figure PROVES that people aren't using abortion as a result of being raped.  They're using it as birth control!  That's just a disgusting thought isn't it?]

For those who *do* use abortion as b.c., yes, I find it deplorable. But I'm not sure how those stats bear out in the present - I'd like to look for more recent stats and see if that has changed.  
 
Tom:
[As for incest.  What can I say?  Don't kick the boots with your cousin and that's it for that case!]

Sorry Tom, but I am not referring to consentual sex, but *abusive* incest - a father, uncle or older sibling committing sexual abuse on a young girl.

Tom: [A danger to the mother is not an abortion support point, it's an anti-pro-creation support point.]

I am probably being redundant here lol but again, your point above doesn't address *child* pregnancies that result from forced, *NON* consentual sex. Procreation is not (or *should* not) even be an issue for young children so no, this has nothing to do with procreation - it is about children who are [a] pregnant through no fault of their own, and are forced with the choice of possible or even likely death in childbirth or aborting. HOnestly, I don't see how this can be reduced to a simple yes or no. Btw, girls as young as nine are sometimes able to bear children, and the risk of death for a nine yr old in childbirth is considerable.

me prev:  
[..... I have known women who wanted to carry their pregnancies to term but were pressured by their husbands/boyfriends/fiances to have an abortion. So, though I agree that the man should be part of the decision, his being a part of the decision-making process does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that there will be fewer abortions. .....]

Tom:
[Which is why premarital sex is a dangerous thing.  At least when you're married there will be a far greater chance of commitment from both parties.On the same note, suggesting that it's possible one parant may not support the child is a supporting for abortion is also a premis for abolishing pro-creation entirely. which I'm certain is not the result you're looking for.]

First let me say that I agree that premarital sex is neither wise nor practical. Second, I was not suggesting that not being able to support a child is a valid reason for abortion. My statements re: supporting the child were in reference to other comments made about how the man should have more clout in the decision whether or not to have an abortion. The point I was making was that, I agree that men should have part of the decision making process but that it will not necessarily lower the number of abortions because many men are the ones pressuring their significant other to have them.

Really, I am not particularly in favor of abortion, but nor am I willing to make a flat-rate judgement on comlicated situations that deserve more consideration than a yes or no.

Just my .02  
smile.gif


Take care,

-Saint J
 
Hi again Tom ; )

Tom: [ I only would take a life where I thought my own or those of many others were in danger]

You mean like if you were a young child and your life was in danger due to the complications of pregnancy/childbirth?

Tom:
[There isn't enough physical danger to the parties involved to constitute a reason for abortion.]

Tom, forgive me, but I'm finding that statement to be remarkably naive. There are about a zillion complications that can and do cause death in childbirth - and the risk goes up exponentially when we're talking about young girls.

Tom:
[Last I checked, a fetus has never assaulted anyone.]

Ok, so if *your* life was in danger you might take the life of whomever or whatever threatened it, but a young girl in a life-threatening situation cannot?  I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly.

take care,

-Saint J
 
Grrr... I am reposting again because for some reason my font color is showing up *tan* and now it won;t show up on the tan background. Does anyone know how I can change it to black?
____

Hi again Tom ; )

Tom: [ I only would take a life where I thought my own or those of many others were in danger]

You mean like if you were a young child and your life was in danger due to the complications of pregnancy/childbirth?

Tom:
[There isn't enough physical danger to the parties involved to constitute a reason for abortion.]

Tom, forgive me, but I'm finding that statement to be remarkably naive. There are about a zillion complications that can and do cause death in childbirth - and the risk goes up exponentially when we're talking about young girls.

Tom:
[Last I checked, a fetus has never assaulted anyone.]

Ok, so if *your* life was in danger you might take the life of whomever or whatever threatened it, but a young girl in a life-threatening situation cannot?  I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly.

take care,

-Saint J
 
Yeah go to your control panel and mess around with the controls you have, and change the text color to black. Magic.
Meh, Eon, I won't look down on you for aborting kids. As I've said, not something I condone, but I cannot condemn you. I'm not here for that. I'm opposed to it, most definitely, but not so much that I'd segregate myself from the "pro-choicers" or abortionists themselves.
How, Eon, can life be expedient to take of unborn humans? How is that acceptable? How can we as born humans, stoop so low to murder the unborn? Man, I weep for the future if this is acceptable. Wholesay mass murder will be live entertainment on TV for the fools who propose stuff like this to be acceptable, so long as it's acceptable for those who don't want the responsibility of taking care of the kids, or bringing them up into the world.
You wanna solve the population problem? You quit screwing around, literally. It won't happen, but that's the way to do it. There is no excuse for saying we're overpopulated. It's bullcrap.
Abortion a legally sanctioned killing. You said as much. Wowzers. In that case, I'm going to have start quarantining elderly people, because they're just taking up time, money and space. Just toss em through the woodchipper, or heck, just incinerate them down. Not too hard, considering they're either holed up in a house, working at the office, or locked up in a nursing home. Just round them up and torch em.
Leave the nice, juicy younguns around. Then when they're old, torch them too.
Eon, a life is not taken to make your conscience better, or to safeguard the child's future. How can you safeguard it by killing it? How can you toss faith that all will be well out the door by never letting it grow? Foolishness.
Saint, you didn't answer my question of the scant 8-year olds amongst the other, what 20-40 year olds who get sexed up every day and then shortly after have abortions? Should we make an acception for those few, and look the other way as the thousands are killed in the gut? Hrmm...
 
Good responses Saint Judas, and I've got some solid firebacks but no time to do it in. One point I will make is that your premis in all your responses deals with forced sex, which is the vast MINORITY of abortions. People are using it as a birth control method in the majority of cases. With that being fact, it simply outweighs the rape/incest argument because legalizing abortion in those cases doesn't justify the majority of them. You are also employing the risk of death due to pregnancy, which is real, but it always is there in ANY pregnancy, and there is the same risk present in abortion, so I find this an unconvincing point when it comes to attempting to justify it.
 
I honestly haven't read through all the replies, except to note how long and heated they became.

So, if it's alright, I'm just going to put my views down here and disregard all the things said before.

The abortion question has been debated hot and heavy for years and years. It's really an impossible debate between those who confess Jesus as Lord and those who don't.

How can you convince a person of the inherent value in a "blob of tissue" if they don't believe in the creator of life who instills us with our value?

I believe that from conception, there is a human in the womb. I believe that to destroy that child is murder, thereby making abortion at any stage a sin.

That said, I don't believe that you can legislate morality. Unless it is possible to have an entire nation acknowledge the legitimacy of the personhood of an unborn fetus, it'll be impossible to say that terminating a pregnancy is wrong.
 
I honestly haven't read through all the replies, except to note how long and heated they became.

So, if it's alright, I'm just going to put my views down here and disregard all the things said before.

The abortion question has been debated hot and heavy for years and years. It's really an impossible debate between those who confess Jesus as Lord and those who don't.

How can you convince a person of the inherent value in a "blob of tissue" if they don't believe in the creator of life who instills us with our value?

I believe that from conception, there is a human in the womb. I believe that to destroy that child is murder, thereby making abortion at any stage a sin.

That said, I don't believe that you can legislate morality. Unless it is possible to have an entire nation acknowledge the legitimacy of the personhood of an unborn fetus, it'll be impossible to say that terminating a pregnancy is wrong.
 
But you CAN legislate morality, that's how laws were put in place! Morals are a relative thing, and if someone in power wants to instill their morals into law than it will be done, which is why we have this question before us right now.
 
Stormy, my question a bit back was this: what is the difference between the few cells in the womb and the few cells walking outside? Anything at all? When are we alive? When we reach a certain cell level? No one answered that question, and I didn't expect that to happen. It's a relative answer: yes or no, and all dependent on the person's worldview.
Morality is a relative concept, except in the case of the law. The law has standards, but these standards are becoming vastly arbitrary, and relative to the judge, to the defendant, to the advocate, and to the prosecutors. Morality shall soon become a myth of Christianity, just as CHristianity is.
 
Well, at the time I did it because I thought it was the best thing to do. I suppose you have to decide whether you think that no future is better than a poor future - I personally didn't want to be responsible for putting the kid through what his life would have been like. I don't like making other people clear up my mistakes, and I don't like doing a bad job - I decided to wait until I could do better.

Eon
 
Don't think another answer would have been...abstinence? Gawrsh...what'll they think of next?
Just a question: you say abstinence is the best answer, but not the most wanted one. Why then did you not keep to the best one? Would have saved the death of a child...
 
Hi there Tom,

No hurry on the responses - my internet time is pretty limited of late so my repsonses will spread out as well.

Some thoughts:

Tom: [One point I will make is that your premis in all your responses deals with forced sex, which is the vast MINORITY of abortions. People are using it as a birth control method in the majority of cases.]

I agree that abortion as birth control is more common, but I don't think that abortions for other reasons (forced sex and/or health/safety issues of the *mother* are quite as uncommon as you think. I used to believe the same and was surprised to find out how many pregnancies are terminated by women who wanted the baby but chose to terminate because, for instance, she had other kids to support and couldn't afford to die in childbirth. And there are other reasons/examples too. And btw I am not talking about "normal" childbirth - I agree with you that there is always *some* risk and that normal, healthy pregnancies practically never result in death of the mother - but pregnancies with complications are aften an entirely different story. The risk increases exponentially and I don't think it is fair for any of us to tell a mother that she should be willing to sacrifice herself, possibly at the expense of children she has already given birth to, because other people abuse the system.

As far as death resulting from the procedure: Presently that risk is as low or lower than the risk of a healthy woman with a normal, no-complications pregnancy dying in childbirth. And for those who choose to abort, obviously the risk of death due childbirth complications is higher than the risk of dying on the table.

Believe it or not, I once felt exactly the same way you do. But over the past few years, I have come to believe that *it doesn't matter* how few abortions are done for legitimate (or if you don't see them as legitimate, at least understandable) reasons, the fact that there are ANY is enough for me to be thankful that I would have that *choice* should I ever be in a similar situation. Perhaps there are ways to tighten the laws so that the "convenience" abortions are greatly reduced. I would most definitely advocate that. But I do not believe in taking that choice away from those who honestly deserve to be able to decide for themselves.

Tom: [With that being fact, it simply outweighs the rape/incest argument because legalizing abortion in those cases doesn't justify the majority of them.]

Imo Tom, *nothing* justifies irresponsibly getting pregnant and then having an abortion for the sake of convenience. But at the same time, nothing (i.e. people abusing the system) justifies *removing* the choice for women who need and deserve it. People abuse the welfare system also, but that just means we should be looking for ways to prevent that abuse - it doesn't justify removing the care for those who need it.

Ok, gotta go. Looking forward to getting your perspective!

Saint J
 
Hiya Ultima,

First of all, re: my screwy font, I *had* tried looking through the "control panel" link to see if I could change it, but I must have missed it the first time. After you confirmed that I could indeed change it, I found the "change the post color" option. Thanks!

Now, to answer your question-

Ultima: [Saint, you didn't answer my question of the scant 8-year olds amongst the other, what 20-40 year olds who get sexed up every day and then shortly after have abortions? Should we make an acception for those few, and look the other way as the thousands are killed in the gut? Hrmm..]

I am sorry I didn't answer on your time schedule Ultima,
tounge.gif
but real life duties and interests leave me little time to post here.

But no, Im not ducking the question (in fact I am glad I found it - with all the new posts since I last checked this board, I might have missed it). I have already answered this in a response to Tom, so to save time I am simply going to copy and paste:

SJ, previously: "Believe it or not, I once felt exactly the same way you do. But over the past few years, I have come to believe that *it doesn't matter* how few abortions are done for legitimate (or if you don't see them as legitimate, at least understandable) reasons, the fact that there are ANY is enough for me to be thankful that I would have that *choice* should I ever be in a similar situation. Perhaps there are ways to tighten the laws so that the "convenience" abortions are greatly reduced. I would most definitely advocate that. But I do not believe in taking that choice away from those who honestly deserve to be able to decide for themselves."

I hope that helped : )

Before I go, I found one of your comments particularly interesting:

Ultima: [Morality shall soon become a myth of Christianity, just as CHristianity is.]

Are you implying that morality is strictly a Christian concept and that it will disappear if Christianity loses its popularity? Im not trying to be argumentative, I just want to make sure I'm interpreting your statement correctly.

Take care,

-SJ
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I agree that abortion as birth control is more common, but I don't think that abortions for other reasons (forced sex and/or health/safety issues of the *mother* are quite as uncommon as you think.
Click to expand...

Rape/incest cases make up about 5% of abortions. Health and safety issues are there in every instance of pregnancy.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And btw I am not talking about "normal" childbirth - I agree with you that there is always *some* risk and that normal, healthy pregnancies practically never result in death of the mother - but pregnancies with complications are aften an entirely different story. The risk increases exponentially and I don't think it is fair for any of us to tell a mother that she should be willing to sacrifice herself, possibly at the expense of children she has already given birth to, because other people abuse the system.
Click to expand...

Again, the majority of abortions are not conducted because the mother's life is immediately threatened. I'll agree in this case that you really don't have a choice, but it doesn't justify the other over 90% of abortions that take place. Those are from people's bad decisions and wanting to take the easy way out. Women have a choice if they want a baby or not, it's called abstinance. If you can't do it, than too bad for you! You should learn to be more responsible!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Believe it or not, I once felt exactly the same way you do. But over the past few years, I have come to believe that *it doesn't matter* how few abortions are done for legitimate (or if you don't see them as legitimate, at least understandable) reasons, the fact that there are ANY is enough for me to be thankful that I would have that *choice* should I ever be in a similar situation.
Click to expand...

So the 5% of those "special" cases should justify the 95% of cases used as birth control by irresponsible women/couples? I don't think so.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Imo Tom, *nothing* justifies irresponsibly getting pregnant and then having an abortion for the sake of convenience. But at the same time, nothing (i.e. people abusing the system) justifies *removing* the choice for women who need and deserve it. People abuse the welfare system also, but that just means we should be looking for ways to prevent that abuse - it doesn't justify removing the care for those who need it.
Click to expand...

People need money to survive, they don't need to slaughter children to do the same thing. If you're not in a financial position to support a child, than you put it up for adoption. We have that system in place, use it.
 
Please explain how the current adoptive system would help relieve the MASSIVE influx of new adoptees, how it would pay to support all the pregnant mothers, cover the medical expenses and counter the concommitant social problems.

The only way to get even close to the number of required foster homes would be to so drastically lower the standards for foster care applicants that it would marginalise the standard of care. And that's if even THEN there would be enough foster homes. I personally believe you're looking at huge state run orphanages, packed full of disenfranchised second class citizens who would be fed, clothed, educated, housed and cared for by the lowest bidder.

Ultima, why didn't I practice abstinence? Well, I loved the girl, I found her very attractive, it was mutual and we were both over the age of consent. She wanted it, I wanted it and it was bloody marvellous. We were using condoms, so we thought it was safe. Of course it's difficult to pinpoint the exact moment of conception, but it was probably the day after I suffered a huge knee injury that put me in plaster for over a month and a half.

She visited me in my room as I lay there feeling VERY sorry for myself, and I guess the sight of me all vulnerable and injured was a bit much for her. As my mobility was wrecked and I was in considerable pain, we ended up using a rather unorthodox position, and the combination of angles, cramp and my limited mobility meant that things kind of slipped off, without getting TOO graphic (I hope). You asked, I told you. It was a mistake, an accident and it happened whilst using a reputable barrier method.

When we found out, we sat down and discussed it. She got various counselling and we both did research as to what keeping it would entail and what an abortion would entail. I supported her whilst she made the decision - although she asked for my input and I gave it. It's her body, her choice, I decided. Had she decided she couldn't abort then I would have had to try and raise it as best I could, somehow but luckily she was realistic about the stability of our relationship, our resources at hand and what kind of support we could expect from outside sources.

It was a very quick operation, I managed to get there (still in plaster) to support her as much as possible. She came through it - I think she actually thinks about it less than I do now.


Eon
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top