25 Man Naxxaramus Run! (Proposed)

We found out that when the master looter is far behind the group, if one of the random drops occurs master looter doesn't hand it out, it goes by normal group loot.


You roll based on the spec you come in with.
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I'm taking that as if I am in the raid to heal then i roll on healing gear. I will of course go by whatever is decided. Just a note, I feel bad when I roll on healing gear against people who are speced healing when I am not, if I get that item it is hurting those people who would not only be healing in that setting but regularly heal when playing in any group.
 
Loot and Be Nice Policy

You roll based on the spec you come in with.

I'm taking that as if I am in the raid to heal then i roll on healing gear. I will of course go by whatever is decided. Just a note, I feel bad when I roll on healing gear against people who are speced healing when I am not, if I get that item it is hurting those people who would not only be healing in that setting but regularly heal when playing in any group.
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JJ brings up a point that will be very valid when 3.1 and Dual Spec rolls out. In Monday's run, we had JJ roll for Heritage, which is an awesome (some would say BiS for a Pally) Tanking Neck - which he won so gratz. However, JJ's role in the run was that of off-spec healer. His talents were specc'd into tanking, but he wore healing gear and supported the raid that way. Conversely, Danny came in specc'd for healing but his primary role in raids is that of a tank. We asked him to roll on healing gear and I believe he picked up a nice trinket (so gratz again).

Now soon patch 3.1 will hit (maybe on the 14th) and respeccing will be "trivial." At this point as The Forgiven we will really have to abide by and enforce our "be nice" loot policy... What will that mean for us? Well, it will be important to consider not only if this is your main toon, but is what you come to the raid with your "main spec?" If you are a tank 90% of the time but respec to healer for that night are you entitled to roll on healing gear - yes. Should you roll against someone who heals 90% of the time and whatever drops is a major upgrade for them - probably not. ;)

The reverse is true (in my opinion) as well. I will use a scenario that happened Monday night. For that person who runs in one spec 90% of the time and respecs to heal, tank, DPS for that night I would consider allowing them to roll on an item that is for their "main spec." How would that work out? I'm not sure yet. Has everyone else currently in that role received a drop? Then maybe the person who respecc'd from their main spec could roll at that point. However by doing so they would forfeit from rolling on their "spec of the night."

True example again (not to single out Danny who is awesome btw) is four tank pieces dropped on Monday. We had 3 tanks get something (I think poor John came away empty handed as some of it was +Block and a shield) and of those 3, one received two drops. Would I have liked that Danny (who usually Tanks) received one - yes. But he did get a healing drop and so did not come away empty handed. But if he did roll on a tanking piece, he would (or anyone else in a similar position) forfeit their right for rolling on a healing (or their other spec) piece later in the run.

An optimal run would have everyone walking out with at least one upgrade. Will that always happen - no. I also believe we need to abide by standards for loot as well:
  • One upgrade per run unless no one else wants.
  • Roll first for primary spec.
  • If no one wants still, roll for off-spec.
  • We will have to define at that point (with dual spec) what a hybrid toon's "main spec" is.
Seek your heart (as I should...) when you roll. Are you being "hypmotized" by a shiny purp? Would it benefit the WHOLE raid to pass to someone else? I do not use the rationale that a lesser geared toon has priority on drops though. There are too many other variables to consider. Do they attend regularly, are actively striving by running heroics to upgrade their toon, have proper enchants, etc.

Sorry for the wall of text. And I will put a disclaimer up that these are my thoughts and opinions as well. I will need to circle back with Mike and ensure we are on the same page. (As I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow I will be incommunicado but will check the forums once or twice while I go through my mounds and mounds of corporate email.)
 
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I'm a process guy, I like the rules to be clear and the expectations to be set ... this is why I don't lead runs - they are not much fun :) One option that could be used to break a tie is to have them link the item they have and go with the one who will benefit from the upgrade most. This way if it is a marginal upgrade, in comparison to other, then it is likely the person would want to pass anyways. Part of the problem with loot is it is too subjective, the question is for a given run, what defines "too subjective". For me, I trust the RL otherwise I would not be running the instance. It doesn't mean I will agree at all times, just means I trust them to be fair which is at the heart of "Be Nice".
 
You roll based on the spec you come in with.

I'm taking that as if I am in the raid to heal then i roll on healing gear. I will of course go by whatever is decided. Just a note, I feel bad when I roll on healing gear against people who are speced healing when I am not, if I get that item it is hurting those people who would not only be healing in that setting but regularly heal when playing in any group.
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Up a above I said spec, not current gear/role. Though the point is still legit. Even if you change speccs for a given run (You heal 10% of the time in wow and tank 90%)
You came in specced tank, but you were asked to heal. You rolled tanking because that is what you were specced for and what you do 90% of the time. I respecced healing (though I typicaly tank) so I rolled healing. In our 10 man, though I was the MT over-all, I healed some fights. But I still rolled on tanking pieces for my spec, healing pieces off-spec if no one needed. And ended up with a full epic tanking & healing set anyways. I believe most of our team ended up this way.

In cases where ppl are asked to change specs for a run or even just gear away from their normal role, the RL can talk it over with them and see how "they" want to roll and then talk it over with those that will be in their loot pool and see how they feel about it. Personally I'm fine with ppl whose primary spec is x who change it for certain runs to y, rolling on gear for x. For example monday when I (Bob did not suggest/require it, I did because I saw we were tank heavy) specced healing (though I typicaly tank and did sign up before other tanks). I could have asked bob, "Can I roll tanking instead of healing?". Bob could have then asked the other tanks how they felt about.

In such cases as above, this can be worked out before the raid. And if a raid is in a spot and asked someone to pay for a respec, that person should have input into how they are going to roll. I don't forsee any issues as long as things are worked out upfront.
 
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Really I think what Adam said is key: Sit down, agree on a system before hand.

Make sure it can be clearly stated in a short period of time. It doesn't have to be perfect, you will likely have to make adjustments from week to week before most people are happy with it and it accomplishes the goals you want it to. The system that we're using on the ID raids went through 3 iterations before we came up with something that everyone seems to like.
 
Really I think what Adam said is key: Sit down, agree on a system before hand.
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Yup, we are just trying to figure out what that's going to entail. You hope everyone agrees, but in the end a RL has to make the call and others will have to decide if they can abide by it. Personally If I was RL again, I'd look at my pool of players and if I needed somone to respec and they were willing, I'd give them a huge say in how they were going to roll. For example if I asked JJ to spec healing for a given run, he might not want to roll on healing gear and cut into that loot pool (knowing that he tanks 90% of the time) On the other hand, someone might be 50-50. They enjoy doing both and do both often.. How would they like to roll? The point is, if I'm, the raid, is asking someone to pay for respecs, we should give them inpute on how they want to roll for that run. (as x spec or y)
 
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Woven said:
Up a above I said spec, not current gear/role. Though the point is still legit. Even if you change speccs for a given run (You heal 10% of the time in wow and tank 90%)
You came in specced tank, but you were asked to heal. You rolled tanking because that is what you were specced for and what you do 90% of the time. I respecced healing (though I typicaly tank) so I rolled healing. In our 10 man, though I was the MT over-all, I healed some fights. But I still rolled on tanking pieces for my spec, healing pieces off-spec if no one needed. And ended up with a full epic tanking & healing set anyways. I believe most of our team ended up this way.
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Thanks for clearing that up. I know that I have used speced and geared interchangeably when I talk to others and I don't want to create problems by rolling on something I shouldn't be.
 
Maybe one more comment, many of our 80s have multiple toons, not all of them are geared as well as our primary toons but in a pitch, they would do. I have little to no issue bringing in my healer if the group needs it (Allanon). I wasn't aware we needed someone to respec.
 
I guess as LM I should probably say something here about the run/loot. I won't be making the loot rules, that is up to Bob and Mike who are leading the run; I just dole out loot the way they tell me to. There were a few "issues" (not sure who is eligible for certain drops) but I think they were handled quickly and efficiently. I know that for my shaman, who has done raids as enhance and as resto, I roll main spec as the spec I went into the run as. I have switched back and forth many times since hitting 80, sometimes 3 times in 1 week, and have good gear for both specs. This is just my way of doing things so won't apply to everyone (JJ was tank specced but was healing...what does he roll on??). One thing I noticed from an ID run on Tuesday is that once the boss has been looted the raid leader passes loot master to a different raid member who is clearing trash with the raid. It seemed that the first master looter (me in our run) could still assign the boss loot and the second loot master could deal with any trash drops that came along. The other thing they did (not that we have to) is that everyone rolled for an item and it went to the highest roller THAT HADN'T WON AN ITEM YET. It then partially fell to the loot master to remember who had and hadn't received items.

Some things to keep in mind when rolling for loot:
1) Armor goes to classes that use that armor (ie cloth to clothies) first
2) Off-spec rolls do not count towards main spec item "limits"
3) PLEASE be aware of what items are being rolled for (had a mix-up with item order on Glob)
 
JJ was tank specced but was healing...what does he roll on??.
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That is what we are trying to sort out. It needs to be sorted before the raid. During those times when someone is asked to respec: RL checks sign ups. He has a few choices if the raid composition is bad: Ask some ppl to play a different role with signed up toon, via respec or gear only, ask for that person to bring an alt. (Talk about loot rules with them, and the raid, gold to respec etc) Or replace that person. Some ppl are more willing to change specs. Some ppl have better secondary gear to get the job done etc.

Just need to work it out before the run.

At this point I'm only doing EOE and Naxx 25. I could just stay healing spec, since I hve the gear and we have the tanks. Our run went well with that setup.
 
With regards to thaddius, I think one issue was not making sure new ppl or those playing a new role, understood that it's not enough to just always run to the right to change polarity sides. You need to run to the "far" outer right when you change. (from - to +)

And when you run from + to - you just run behind the boss.
 
Good Run - 4/19

A solid run last night in Heroic Naxx. One wipe on early trash in the Construct Quarter (whoops), two-shot of Patch but the first wipe was due to D/C's, Grob and Gluth went down quickly as well. Spider Wing trounced in just over 30mins.

Thaddius (WowHead Strategies) - had some problems with him. From a gearing/DPS standpoint we are more than capable of taking him down. A few major things to consider on Thadd:
  • Stacking - Melee and Ranged need to be stacked together. Thadd has a very large hit box and Ranged/Melee can easily stack for the bonus.
  • Electrical Charge - watching for Polarity Shifts and moving (counterclockwise) around Thadd IF your polarity changes (which may not always happen).
  • Learning to Jump - after taking down Fuegen & Stalag jumping down to Thadd's platform is not hard to do. Ask a Priest for Levitate if you're having issues with the jump.
Improvements from last week:
  • Much smoother distribution of loot.
  • Big DPS increase - Grobbulus went down very quickly.
  • Nice work on Gluth and his adds (thanks John & JJ) and quick dispatching of the adds during Decimate.
  • Great healing with some well-timed Battle Rez's of the tanks to keep us in the fight.
I'll be discussing with Mike, but I'd like to visit the Military and/or Plague Quarter on the next run. I believe we can easily complete two quarters on a single run. We were well on pace to do so last night with our three attempts on Thadd. Priests (Anita, Meaghan, and maybe Eric/Triskal) please check out WoWHead for a read on the Instructor Fight & your Mind Control.

Thank you to everyone who came and our next run is scheduled for Monday, May 4th. Hope to see you all back then!!
 
Talking to John this morning...here's another tip for Thaddius:
- The fight is not very healing intensive. Pretty much the only damage the raid takes is from the periodic Chain Lightning. You have to also keep the tank up.
- Therefore, the Healers can also be dpsing. Throw dots on Thaddius. Use bigger spells if you think you can afford the cast time. As a shaman I tried to make sure I had my Searing totem down, and Flame Shock up on Thaddius as much as possible. I even had time for a few lightning bolts and Lava Bursts.

It might seem odd to have your healers dpsing, but this is what really made the difference for my Naxx group. We went from getting him to only 15% or so, to killing him just by having the healers also dps as much as they could.
 
Yeah, I brought the "healers should be dpsing" last night before the 2nd attempt.
Our only issue on him last night:

1) A few ppl were running the wrong way in general.
2) Range have to run "Far" right when changing from - to + or we kill ppl running from + to -. And
3) Lrn 2 jump issues.

If that is corrected, he dies.
 
[7F]LarryBoy;337121 said:
Talking to John this morning...here's another tip for Thaddius:
- The fight is not very healing intensive. Pretty much the only damage the raid takes is from the periodic Chain Lightning. You have to also keep the tank up.
- Therefore, the Healers can also be dpsing. Throw dots on Thaddius. Use bigger spells if you think you can afford the cast time. As a shaman I tried to make sure I had my Searing totem down, and Flame Shock up on Thaddius as much as possible. I even had time for a few lightning bolts and Lava Bursts.

It might seem odd to have your healers dpsing, but this is what really made the difference for my Naxx group. We went from getting him to only 15% or so, to killing him just by having the healers also dps as much as they could.
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I think healers were having a little more trouble because of lag issues and inexperienced people who were having trouble with moving quickly to the right spots in the fight, i know i caused some damage once or twice cause i wasn't moving away from the group fast enough and that was probably bad positioning on my part( being on the wrong side of the stack i'm on so having to run farther to get away from everyone else ).
 
May 18th!

Next Heroic Naxx run is posted for the 18th. As we had some issues filling this one with guildies I will most likely open it up to some select SGA'ers next week:

Dan: Ata/Kymm/Deimus
Daire
Spre
Briala (sp)
etc.
Doom

As a group, we have not completed Heroic Construct or Military Quarters. Look out Thadd and Four Horsemen - here we come!
 
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The big thing guildies is Bob needs you to sign up in GC and or msg him if you aren't running GC so he can manually sign you up. That way he'll know how many slots to allocate for SGA...
 
Berstromme said:
The big thing guildies is Bob needs you to sign up in GC and or msg him if you aren't running GC so he can manually sign you up. That way he'll know how many slots to allocate for SGA...
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Agreed. It's not fair to Bob if people get upset at him (not that this has happened yet) if he fills up with SGA because people didn't let him know they were coming, and then they come along and can't find a slot.

It's also not fair if Bob has to delay the raid for an hour or so because people "might" come along but didn't sign up or message him.
 
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