25 Man Naxxaramus Run! (Proposed)

I was pleasantly surprised that you guys downed Grob on your first raid, that is very excellent. It means the group can follow directions. :D

I would have to disagree - I think that Construct is the most difficult wing. 4 Horse in Military just takes co-ordination. You have to watch those marks, make sure you keep swapping mobs/tanks.

Like Adam said, this is not a fresh group that has never set foot in a 25-man. Many have gear from 25-mans already, which helps a lot, and the rest will gear up pretty quickly if this is something that happens consistently.
 
So far it's been easy. Plain and simple. When I say "easy" here is what I mean:

I had the impression that it would be more challenging then 10 man. It, so far, is absolutely not. (Given OUR team which has a lot of naxx 10/heroic loot/epic rep/craftable/badge loot geared ppl) At least 10 of us have naxx 10 on farm and have almost all the best gear from there. Plus, some in our group have 25man loot and experience. And we have very skilled players on a multitude of lvls. Some are better mechanicaly, some are more knowledgable etc etc. We killed the second spider boss with a full enrage from start to finish and got the achievment. I'd say we are geared.

We did get a bit cocky/overconfident which lead to a little carelessness on the blob/trash room that cost many wipes. (Some of that was not knowing how fast the trash respawned though) Other of it was simply not being together/ready.


The challenges I see:

Hegien (With 25 ppl) While our 10 man group has that down with no deaths (most of the time). Not sure about others in the 25 man group.

Thaddious, more complicated with 25 ppl. If a few don't shift to the correct side during polarity, it will cost us. However, a simple, non-complicated explanation of that fight does wonders. It's actually very simple. As far as dps goes, blow all specials, trinkets, heroism. (And like Adam said, try to be prepared) You will feel better knowing you are contributing to the group and are being considerate of others.

KT, more complicated on 25 man.

(By the way, our healing and tanking is very good. All of those ppl are in epic gear.)

Rhys you brought up potential dps issues. That includes your toon right? (Which did about 1.7% 1600 dps) Because it is true patchwork was a bit of a strain on mana last night, because of some low dps. We were throwing inervates around.

But for last night, that's ok. Our goal last night was to get 25 guildies together to test the waters and over all It was a fun "casual" run, meaning we were able to bring all forgiven ppl, some geared, some undergeared. However, some of the ppl who plan on staying may have to work on their gear some to manage certain fights. (Makeing them doable and or less risky)
 
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we were that (overconfident) on 10 man for the progress run and we got owned and then everyone thought we better not do it or at least that what some people think.
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We were tired and yes, somewhat over confident. Tired due to RL, to many raids, to much of the same content over and over. We did not stop doing naxx 10 because we got owned one night (We have it on farm) Speaking for myself and Renee, we stopped because we are reducing our play time. And naxx 25 was already proposed. More challenge, better loot. More efficient use of time. Renee still does not have all her T7 naxx 10 loot and I'm very happy to say, has no issues with that :) We were doing 3 raids per week and that's to many. Our goal atm is 25naxx/EOE. And when Uldar comes out probably just Uldar (Maybe one other)

Heck I have geared for 25 man and not needing anything form 10 for a long time but I still go to help others get geared I think thats still what needss to be done.
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You wanted deathbite during our runs and it never dropped. That's part of what this is about. We "helped" you get plenty of gear from there and you helped us. If you are also speaking about others needing gear from there, who? Because there might be enough of our naxx 10 team combined with some new ppl to do naxx. You are free to lead a 10 man and help those in the guild who want to get gear from naxx 10.
 
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i realize that Thadd has 5X the HP he does in 10 man, but the multipliers also get ramped up that much higher as well. Instead of 4X being typical damage, you get a 9 to 11X multiplier (probably less as some people won't get the charges correct). I disagree with Rhys...no offense of course, but if a group has the dps to take down patch, even barely, they have the dps to take down Thadd. Whether they have the discipline and coordination to do so is another story.
 
I would love to center my raiding to clearing naxx 25 with TF. That is about all I have time for on a weekly basis. I enjoyed spending my evening with the lot of you. I especially appreciated the great attitudes around the loot as some of the decisions were being made in real time. Thanks to Bob and Mike on that. If I may, I would suggest one of you post the loot rolls just to save time from boss to trash clearing and setting expectations.
 
I think we are all on the same page, but I will reiterate a few points and a quick synopsis of the raid overall.
  • The chief purpose of this run was to get 25 folks from The Forgiven together. It was an incursion into Naxx - that is all.
  • We did very well on our first 25man. The Spider Quarter was a push-over which made us a bit overconfident (so what :D ).
  • Mike's and my original goal was to do Construct (chiefly Patch) first as a test of the group. We came to him after breezing through Spider, wiped once, regrouped and he went down - awesome coordination of healers for that one!!
  • FORGIVEN RUN - I could have brought in folks from the SGA to fill the raid. We chose (on purpose) to bring lesser geared and lesser experienced guild members. I am glad we stood by that decision 100%.
  • If we want to prioritize clearing Naxx 25 as a guild, I am in as my schedule allows. Again, not our original intent.
  • By doing the above, we now walk a fine line on "requesting" regular raid attendance, bringing the appropriate class/spec, food/flasks, etc.
  • Did we make mistakes - yes. Did everyone contribute and put out a great effort - YES!! Most importantly, I believe the overwhelming majority had a LOT of fun.
Things we can improve upon:
  • Less chatter during the boss fights. Let's keep it to Healers, Tanks, calling out a Decimate, etc. We all were excited last night so no big deal.
  • Loot - distribution was a bit uneven but that is WoW and RNG. I will discuss with Mike but I would prefer to stay away from a DKP system.
  • I am a very democratic raid leader (even though I am a staunch Republican...). With 25 folks, it's best we run with less chiefs and more indians. Suggestions are welcome, but whispering them to the raid leaders is probably best. It also keeps us from trying to talk over each other on TeamSpeak. John (wisely) suggested 3 Raid Leaders (Tanking, Healing, and DPS).
  • Trash can be harder than the bosses. If we visit the Military Quarter, the trash (IMHO) is a step up in difficulty = more raid wipes if we are not careful.
  • We could have gotten Gluth down if we had more time. Had bad luck with some long disconnects which ate into our time.
Things I liked:
  • Great efforts and attitude. Again, last night was just plain fun - simple really. (WoW is a game you know.)
  • Great coordination, listening to directions for those who were new, effort put out.
I like the suggestions for checking on the Raid Worthiness of your toon. I also use WoW-Heroes.com and BE IMBA! Both will highlight your good/bad gear, enchants, etc. Both also graphically represent what Raids you are ready for or what you should be running to get geared. Also, ask a guildmate. Someone in the guild has a high-level toon and is happy to share/advise on what heroics to run, what enchants you should be using, are you hit-capped, have adequate mana regen, spellpower, expertise, +DEF, etc.

I don't want to over-analyze or beat this thread to death. I would prefer to wallow in the success, fun, and fellowship we experienced together, as a guild and grouping of believers. :)
 
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While I do know that every player should do their part in gearing and speccing up, and while I do agree in principle with Adam (that every undergeared toon makes it that much harder and therefore less fun on every other toon,) and while I agree that the resources that have been shared here are excellent for helping witht he gearing and speccing process, I would like to request that we not get into the whole DPS race thing until we actually hit a DPS wall.

Last night we did really well with DPS. None of the wipes or failed boss fights had anything to do with DPS; they all had to do with unfamiliarity.

I personally would like it if the whole "who's where on the DPS list" "who's geared properly" question did not come up until we have done a good execution on Thaddius (proper stacks, people not dead) and failed it due to enrage timer. Before then, it's just theory, and I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.
 
Just to clear something up on the minor loot issue last night. (Which was minor and handled well on the fly)

I think it's good to let ppl know myself and Bob did not have any type of pre-arranged special loot rules based on my respeccing to healadin. (I'd get to roll on tank gear with other tanks) We did not. I never had any intentions of rolling on tank gear. I saw we were tank heavy so I told Bob I'd respec if he wanted me to.
When he offered to let me roll on tank gear (Since I tank 90% of the time and only spec healing for EOE) He was simply trying to be gracious, though it inadvertently can be inconsiderate to others who now suddenly have 1 extra person in their loot pool.

Now, that's not to say such loot rules would always be wrong. If someone volunteers to spec other than what they typicaly play or perhaps (and I was not) are asked to spec something else andIF the ppl that person is going to share potential loot with are asked and ok with it. It's fine.

What we decided last night on the fly is simple and good: You roll based on the spec you come in with.

Ron, good points.
 
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You guys make me wish this raid was in a time slot that I could attend. It sounds like a lot of fun!

One thing that we do on the ID raids that really speeds up the runs (you may already be doing this):
- Assign a master looter (and use the master looter option). This person thoroughly understands the loot rules and is responsible for dealing with rolls and handing out loot. This should not be the main tank or a main healer. Ideally a DPS.
- Once a boss is down, and everyone is rezed/healed up, and have grabbed their emblems, start clearing to the next boss.
- While this clear is happening, deal with loot. The winners will get their items regardless of where they are in the instance.

We've found this REALLY speeds up the run, as you're not spending 5-10 min after each boss waiting for loot to finish before clearing again.
 
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Well, if you are doing 1% of over all dps. You are to low. Sometimes it's really clear a person is way out of their league for content. Other times there is room for "the benifit of the doubt".

I personally don't want to feed into the "You do all the work and carry me through attitude"
Nor do I want to feed the "You need all epics to run naxx".

With this group, some ppl are simply low for the content, but that doesn't mean we don't have the collective dps to win a dps race (As we did on patchwork) It just means others are pulling more of there share and then some. So I think it's good to get ppl in the habit and encurage them of trying to carry their fair share. It's healthy for them and everyone else.
 
Hey Rhys, just a quick follow up on your suggestion for doing Naxx 10, if you can plan it for a weekend (early Saturday morning would be grand), count me in on one toon or other. I have Allanon who is quite capable of healing 10 man Naxx if you like. It would be grand for you to run some of our less experienced 80s on 10 man Naxx.
 
First lots of fun by all, except me with my horrible connection issue for which I apologize. I'll be getting a new ISP around the 28th of April if all goes well with the FiOS folks at Verizon.

/cast wall of text

Great run overall. The fact that we as a team downed Patchwerk was a major test of healing, tanking and dps gearing of the raid overall. We succeeded! The reason Bob and I wanted to try him first was to execute the proverbial raid check and see how we stood. We are looking good. Next comes coordination and learning fights, many challenges to come are about being in the right place at the right time, movement, positioning etc. We’ll likely wipe on bosses and trash as we did last night. It is OK.

Bob and I will try to get some loot rules posted. I may ask a smart forum searcher to pull up the old “Be Nice” loot rules thread the guild has used in times past. Yes I know the raid is “bigger” than what we have done in the past, but if we are all nice “Be Nice” works just fine. Remember every time someone in the raid gets something for their toon that makes them better at what they are doing for the raid (healing, tanking, dpsing) the RAID gets better, and more likely to be more successful. This in turn makes it more likely for you to get loot for your toon in the future. Getting an upgrade and being nice about letting someone else getting an upgrade after you have one “rewards” them too and helps all the toons in the raid improve.

As for the bringing the right enchants, gems, elixirs/flasks it is important and considerate to your fellow guildies. Most importantly ask a guild mate to craft something you need if it is too expensive in the AH. We have a Quests/Professions section in the forum ask there. I can make every Blacksmithing pattern in the game right now, if one of those items will help you out ask me, I’ll probably help you grind some of the mats to make. Remember to not abuse your brother or sister’s generosity, but we are usually a giving bunch of folks. If you are short on time one week, ask someone to pick up some consumables and bring them to the raid for you. Pay them back or pay it forward in the future…this type of behavior is what makes The Forgiven sooo much fun!

Again, great job by all. We are going to try to run 19 April with invites starting around 630pm server, hopefully first pull at 7pm sharp. Yes it is on a Sunday. Folks have posted in the thread about trying 2 nights. We’ll see what a Sunday looks like for turn out. We know we’ll never have a perfect schedule for everyone. But we’ll try our best.
 
ok so many things since i posted 9 hrs ago lol. First Danny mydnyte would never be the toon I would play if I had choice heck I have no clue what I am doing I had never touched a pally til last night. As for dps when u say 1% I gree is to low however most melee are goingto be low dps on trash but every high on bosses. When I persoanlly look at Rhys's melee I look at boss melee cause thats when he can go all out, on trash I might get through 1 rotation in there. So I encourage the melee to dps how u can on trash but to know your main dps will be on bosses, for casters/aoe they do more on trash then melee. I think the group did awesome last nihgt , I think there more gear and experience in there we will be doing great and seeing KT fast.

For loot I only say dont do dkp, we need to run friendly and can we are aguild and we get along. Last night was a luck iof draw that feral cat/ rogue gear dropped another night there will be none and a over done of tank or healing or something. I poersonally think it was handled very well.

For the april 19th run Haveo will be geared and readyso I will be wanting to bring him.

As for a new naxx run it is coming I will need to figure out a good time that works for me and people that want to come.
 
Personally i think it went really well, just getting 25 together from in guild was great.

I had a hard time with so much chatter on ts, deveolped a bad headeche and had to get off it, 3-5 people talking at once can get confusing hehe, keeping the channel clear helps a lot, just need one person (raid leader) calling the shots.

Gear wise, there are blue posts that state you do not need to be naxx 10 geared to do naxx 25, which is very true. You can get item value 200 epics from heroics for gearing up (next 10 items are item lvel 200 as well, naxx 25 items are 213). A big part of being ready is make sure you get flasks ,get enchants etc on what gear you do have, it can make a big difference :)

and oh, i disagree that melee classes are better on bosses then trash rhys, the top 3 on trash in the sga run is usally myself, a DK and a mage, 2/3 melee :)
 
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overall the top 4 are 3out 4 on 25 man but aoe usually does win on trash in naxx in the new one with more cc needed I dont know who wins.
 
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