Does it matter about converters?

[tjguitarz]

Saying that Catholicism is the religion of the beast, and calling it paganism and its practices paganistic blows past rule 3.

Never said it was solid fact. But there is credible evidence that links Catholicism to babylonian paganism. I'll try to find the name of a book for ya.

 

[Glitch]

You know what I think we should all just agree to disagree, this arguing is getting us nowhere. As i said before Rule 3 of the ToS.

i must agree with Phantom on this fact... despite this is an interesting discussion... it is getting out of hand.

 

[tjguitarz]

i must agree with Phantom on this fact... despite this is an interesting discussion... it is getting out of hand.

I, or someone else, will start another thread later once we've got our facts straight. I'm not at a good time to be able to dig around for all of that. Hopefully soon. Then we can examine this with facts, rock solid proof, instead of "I thinks."

 

[Durruck]

I would suggest caution when trying to decided which religion is right/wrong. Do not allow your personal beliefs based on what you've heard to influence you to say thing that may not be true. The Bible - God's Word - is the only source of truth that we can follow without hesitation.

Hebrews 10:30 says:

We know the one who said: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," and again: "The Lord will judge his people."

It doesn't say that man judges anything. The Lord does. He alone judges our hearts, minds, actions. If any given religion testifies that Jesus is the risen Son of God, then they proclaim the truth.

Acts 4:10, 12 [The apostle Peter said] Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.... [12] Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

link

That's all that matters. Jesus is the only way to the Father. Who are we to squabble over the rest of the details?

 

[tjguitarz]

Who are we to squabble over the rest of the details?

If the details violate other parts of scripture, then I certainly think that's something to squabble over.

 

[Kidan]

Everyone, please remember to be nice while discussing the beliefs of other users on this forum.

Us moderators are keeping a firm eye watching this thread, and misbehavior will be dealt with harshly...

 

[Durruck]

Before I begin, I'd like to say that I think that I've kept this post as non-offensive as I can. If there is a problem with it, block it and let me know what area crosses the line. I'd be more than happy to re-phrase or remove parts that cause trouble.

If the details violate other parts of scripture, then I certainly think that's something to squabble over.

I agree. I don't understand Catholicism any more than you do. I've asked many of the same questions. But it seems that many of the ...for lack of a better word at the moment...quirks of that particular sub-section of Christianity fall into gray areas in the Bible.

It was previously posted that they're asking dead saints to pray for us. I pose this question: How is that different than you asking me to pray for you? Sure, sure. I'm alive, they're dead... but if we believe in eternal life through Jesus, then those that have called Jesus "Lord", have left our earth are still alive in Heaven. I see very little difference there.

My only point is that while we may not understand what other Christians believe... the bulk of our beliefs are the same. How are the Methodists different than the Baptists? Pentecosts? I'll be honest, I don't know. But I do know that all of them proclaim Jesus as the Son of God, their Risen Savior.

Some Christian religions believe that you can be baptized by being sprinkled with water. Others believe that full immersion is the only true baptism. Others yet say that it has to be full immersion in the river/lake to count. I'm not trying to start a theological debate here, but does the Bible give us a clear answer? I don't believe it does. The Bible mentions baptisms taking place in the Jordan through most of the New Testament, but I believe it's more that the actual baptism takes place when you open your heart to Christ and dedicate your life to Him, coupled with the cleansing by water. I honestly don't believe that you have to go to the river in February to give your life to Christ. Nor do I believe that each of us has to go to Jerusalem or the Jordan River.

Some churches will preform baptisms on infants, others don't. Why? Which is right? Is the infantile baptism an act of dedicating the child to the Lord, much like Hannah did to her son, Samuel in 1Sa1:20-28? Or in the modern day (unless the Lord calls us to do differently with our children) do we hold off the baptism until they choose to accept Jesus, and the baptism becomes a symbol of their belief and an displayed action of the individuals choice?

Is communion something that must be done by every member of the congregation simultaneously? Or should it be given out, and each person takes the cup and loaf when their heart is ready?

Southern Baptists are famous for their dancing and clapping and shouting "Amen" when their preacher makes a good point. In many other churches, the preacher would be offended if you spoke during his sermon.

In my only visit to a Pentecostal church, several members were knocked down the with the Spirit, some spoke in tongues. Many churches would find this behavior highly inappropriate.

So my question is the same one I posed earlier. Who are we to decide which is right and which is wrong?

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

While I am open to different styles of worship and customs there is a point when they can become a barrier to getting saved. Pre-Jesus there was all this stuff a priest had to do to go into the holy of holies where the ark of the covenant was i.e. to be sanctified to be in God's presence. After Jesus' sacrifice that veil was torn away (Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent). The separation that existed between coming before God was no more. Catholicism (in days past) erected new barriers between God and man, excommunication, buying time off from purgatory, etc. Until Martin Luther (not that he was a perfect man either, he was anti-Semitic, although I really recommend the movie, but, I digress) showed up Catholicism had become a literal market on selling salvation and that's definitely not Christian. While I will not speak for any specific modern religion, or Catholicism today, people by their nature will continue to try to control salvation for their personal empowerment. Thus we should be wary of including all denominations that claim Christianity as being "Christian". I've gone to websites that are most definitely not "Christian" though they say they are.

Way back when I officially excepted Christ as my savior I had gone to my father with a question about salvation. I had heard that one had to except Christ AND be physically baptized to be saved. This didn't seem right because baptism was an act not everyone could go though in the course of their life. Of course later I figured out that the baptism referred to in the bible is one of the Holy Spirit and fire not a physical emersion in water (Mark 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.) Regardless the point is physical baptism that is REQUIRED for salvation creates a barrier that is not a Christian concept. You couldn't have last minute salavtion. People will be less open to Christianity because of it too. Example "since X who I cared about was never baptized they could not have possibly been saved so why do I even want to look at your religion". Baptism (water) for custom or tradition is fine.

It was previously posted that they're asking dead saints to pray for us. I pose this question: How is that different than you asking me to pray for you? Sure, sure. I'm alive, they're dead... but if we believe in eternal life through Jesus, then those that have called Jesus "Lord", have left our earth are still alive in Heaven. I see very little difference there.

Praying to saints can also be a barrier. There is a marked difference to asking someone to pray for you and praying to God himself. Do we even know if the saints can hear us? Although some may dispute it I personally don't think dead people are anywhere yet. They are either asleep until the resurrection or time jumps directly to the resurrection from the moment of death for the dead. Even if they are in heaven does that mean they watch us or can do anything about us? Furthermore we cannot know on Earth who actually accepted Christ, words and acts are not absoulte proof of salvation, so how do you even know the saint you pray to was actually saved? Regardless we do know God can hear us so why not pray the one you are sure of? Also to me the whole thing is like calling tech support. Why do you want to talk to the guy in india when you can talk directly to the inventor.

 

[Durruck]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but what you think is just that - what you think. I don't mean that to be negative in any fashion, other than what you think, what I think, what my dad thinks, what my neighbor thinks.... could very well be wrong.

My point has been that all along. Where there is no firm word from God, we tend to fill in the blanks with whatever seems to make sense to us. If Catholics are asking dead people (who they think can hear them) to pray for us, I'm cool with that. I honestly see no difference between that and posting in the Prayer Request forums here... hoping someone will read it and pray for me.

If it turns out that the dead haven't truly "gone on" yet, then it's all wasted breath, just as my typing in the forums could be.

But God knows every thought, hears every word, sees every deed. I'd hope that He would forgive our misunderstandings about how He works and accept those requests for prayers, anyway. He knows we can't even hope to comprehend exactly how He's got it laid out.

 

[tjguitarz]

But when a person prays, isn't it supposed to be to a 'higher being,' Jesus Christ? Aren't Catholics placing the importance of saints above simple humans? And the Bible says all who believe in Christ and his awesomeness are saints. What gives Catholics the authority to name some saints above others?

 

[Durruck]

Aren't Catholics placing the importance of saints above simple humans

We do not worship anyone but God and Jesus. We ask the Saints and the Virgin Mary to pray for us to God, but we do not pray to them.

Please read the 2nd quote carefully, TJ. I've directly quoted (ToJ.CC)Phantom - first post on the fourth page of this thread. To answer your question, they are not praying to the dead or the saints, they're talking to them as you or I would talk to someone nearby, or perhaps, on the phone. There is a huge difference. I'm not Catholic, but I'm going to ask anyway - if you're going to make assumptions about what other sub-sections of Christians do, at least make sure you're listening to what they're telling you. Phantom has explained this. I think we should be happy to have an educated answer. I've wondered the same thing as you for a long time, but now that the answer has been posted, I think we can strike that from our list of things we don't understand about Catholics.

And the Bible says all who believe in Christ and his awesomeness are saints

I know what you're talking about. Our pastor actually talked about this a few months ago at church. The confusion here is because of the translation. If I remember correctly, the Greek word used for "saints" is the same word used elsewhere in a different context - perhaps "redeemed" or "sanctified". I'll have to look for it later. It's late and I'm tired.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but what you think is just that - what you think. I don't mean that to be negative in any fashion, other than what you think, what I think, what my dad thinks, what my neighbor thinks.... could very well be wrong.

My point has been that all along. Where there is no firm word from God, we tend to fill in the blanks with whatever seems to make sense to us. If Catholics are asking dead people (who they think can hear them) to pray for us, I'm cool with that. I honestly see no difference between that and posting in the Prayer Request forums here... hoping someone will read it and pray for me.

If it turns out that the dead haven't truly "gone on" yet, then it's all wasted breath, just as my typing in the forums could be.

But God knows every thought, hears every word, sees every deed. I'd hope that He would forgive our misunderstandings about how He works and accept those requests for prayers, anyway. He knows we can't even hope to comprehend exactly how He's got it laid out.

In regard to where the dead actually are it is just what I think (although I have some logical reasons for it). However, in regard to how we pray and to who we pray to it is not what I just think. The bible presents a specific picture of how we are to pray and to whom. First when asked to teach them how to pray Christ prayed directly to God Luke 11:1-4. Second we ask others to pray for us because of...

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree ON EARTH as touching any thing they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in midst of them.

Why say specifically ON EARTH? There would have to be somewhere else you could be that would not work. If your contention is by posting a prayer request on the forums we don't know if anyone is actually praying with us, we don't know if they actually are when the are praying right next to us either. Getting two or more people on earth to pray is still the goal we should shoot for to fulfill the verse. So while the bible supports earthly prayer I don't know of any biblical evidence for praying to saints. One might as well pray to fairies because the bible doesn't say fairies don't exist. There is a biblical basis for group prayer. With asking dead saints to pray for you there is not. So how can it be attributed to Christian doctrine? Unlike communion which I can see a biblical basis for.

Please read the 2nd quote carefully, TJ. I've directly quoted (ToJ.CC)Phantom - first post on the fourth page of this thread. To answer your question, they are not praying to the dead or the saints, they're talking to them as you or I would talk to someone nearby, or perhaps, on the phone. There is a huge difference. I'm not Catholic, but I'm going to ask anyway - if you're going to make assumptions about what other sub-sections of Christians do, at least make sure you're listening to what they're telling you. Phantom has explained this. I think we should be happy to have an educated answer. I've wondered the same thing as you for a long time, but now that the answer has been posted, I think we can strike that from our list of things we don't understand about Catholics.

The idea that prayer and talking are two different things I don't agree with either. Prayer = talking to God. The only difference between prayer and talking being that one is spiritual communication and the other is physical. Seeing how talking to the dead would be spiritual it'd still be praying. If you look at other religions they pray to ancestors and spirits with or without worship involved. The use of the word is not limited to God alone. Remember too prayer/talking is not one way. Does Saint X talk back to you? If you aren't listening to a Saint just who are you listening to? This all sounds a bit to much like mediums who use a dead spirit to make contact with the spirit world.

I don't think Catholics are going to hell for praying/talking to saints or anything like that, but, how can I put this. Getting saved is about having a personal relationship with God if you are communicating to God via saint this would be a barrier to any personal relationship. If you are merely asking a saint to pray for you that time could be spent on better things. Believe me if the devil and this world can't get you to sin directly they're going to put as many stumbling blocks and distractions in your way as they can. If you think this can't interfere with ones prayers I also don't agree. Prayer is not for God, it is for us. It is not merely about asking God for things, but, furthering our relationship with him, listening to what he would have us do. If you've got a third party on the line it's going to be harder to listen.

In addition the past history of saints is not one of only prayer, but, money and power. Pilgrims would trek to pay homage to saints bodies and relics in the hope that some power conferred upon their remains would be endowed to them. Could God heal though a object? Maybe he could (he used the pool of Siloam John 9:7), but, what is certain is that the people in charge were more concerned with the profit from them than God "We need a new attraction to draw pilgrims to donate money. Hey! Bob just bit it lets sanctify him!" I'm not exaggerating either if you need web-sites. With all the attention and pomp that saints garnered I don't see how that didn't detract from worshiping God. It's like any kind of Christian custom unless you take the emphasis on it and point it back to God it becomes something that leads you away from him.

Hope I didn't miss any posts, points or spelling errors. I kind of had to hurry at the end. To our Catholic brothers I don't have a problem with you nor do I doubt your Christianity. There are many things we can agree on and a disagreement shouldn't be taken as a wholesale rejection. Catholicism has done A LOT historically that is good. To the moderators I'm still cool about everything so don't take this as a heated argument, in fact I've never been upset on the forums at all. Concerned yes, angry no.

 

[dorkelf]

I've spent a lot of time debating about Catholicism and explaining Protestant beliefs on a Catholic apologetics Yahoo discussion group, and I've had countless private discussions with the former Protestant who runs the group. Please allow me to make a suggestion based on my experiences: When there are Catholics involved in the discussion, such as on this forum, it is best to avoid using your own words and your own personal convictions to express what they believe. On the Yahoo group I found that Catholic members were doing that a lot to me in regards to my Protestant beliefs. And I've seen a lot of the same thing in regards to Catholicism on these forums. It is a lot better to bring up a topic with an authoritative quote or statement about Catholic beliefs from a Catholic source (like a website), express your concerns about it - respectfully, and then encourage Catholics to respond to it. You will often be surprised at how different their response will be compared to your own understanding or expectations. And then when you respond with scripture and your own arguments, your response will be well-informed and will have the best chance of making an impact. Just my 2c.

Paul

 

[ChickenSoup]

You know what I think we should all just agree to disagree, this arguing is getting us nowhere. As i said before Rule 3 of the ToS.

So my point was valid in saying that the source you quoted took was taking the verse out of context and seeing things that weren't there?

Anyway, this is horrendously off-topic, man...